New jump rule??

[BVal]

TIPS, Brady, there are 4 million tips out there, And almost as many jump cue mfg.er's. I'm talking about conformity. Let the cream come to the top, but set SOME rules and parameter's. If not....its a free-for-all.

Don't think someone, somewhere, isn't working on a cue stick, (or tip) that will eliminate the need for an accurate stroke thru the ball. (bigger sweet spot) LOL

Dick

LOL I get it SJD. Whatever the rules are I conform to them. If the rules were to change to no jump cues I would be okay with that. I also agree that WE (the pool community) should have ONE standard set of rules for the game. I am not disagreeing with you

BVal

 

[CreeDo]

SJD: about your take on the integrity of the game...

While it's true the ability to jump has changed the game, it hasn't changed it so drastically that it's comparable to a corked bat or square groove club. Jumping only helps with 1 aspect of the game, dealing with being hooked (and even then only a certain kind of hook). The bulk of the game is still making shots and playing position, and it has no effect on that game.

In other words it doesn't increase your overall offensive ability, just your ability to deal with this one niche situation. Whereas a corked bat helps every single batter score more often, every single golfer's drive, etc. I guess you could argue the at-bat and driving situations are not ALL of baseball or golf, but I think they're close half of it. Whereas jumping in pool is... I dunno, 2% of it?

Plus, we're talking about equipment that helps mostly 1 particular form of pool... 9/10 ball. You don't see it much in 8 ball and never in 1p/straight pool.

You and neil might have a point about the length thing, I'm not really sure. When the first rules came out with minimum (and maximum?) cue lengths, were they even thinking of jumps? Why bother have restrictions on this in the first place? I know that in golf you can get an illegally long driver and it might help you get sick distances, but in pool... jump cues that fall within the legal requirements can already make any jump you want. So why are there rules at all? They could have made the jump cue's length requirement long enough that a dart stroke is really difficult maybe...

 

[enzo]

i think it is almost impossible to outlaw jumping and ill tell you why (i had a thread about this)......

what if a guy is near the rail, he's strait in and needs to draw back, yet there is a ball..... potentially..... in his way. one guy may say the ball is in his way, another guy may say its not..... but the player feels putting the desired, elevated stroke on the ball he will not hit the interfering ball and will thus draw back..... same as he would if the supposedly interfering ball was not there. you just can't have subjective judgements like this in pool, and as far fetch as it may sound, this very reason, for me, should prevent anyone from barring jump shots.

 

[Cuebacca]

i think it is almost impossible to outlaw jumping and ill tell you why (i had a thread about this)......

what if a guy is near the rail, he's strait in and needs to draw back, yet there is a ball..... potentially..... in his way. one guy may say the ball is in his way, another guy may say its not..... but the player feels putting the desired, elevated stroke on the ball he will not hit the interfering ball and will thus draw back..... same as he would if the supposedly interfering ball was not there. you just can't have subjective judgements like this in pool, and as far fetch as it may sound, this very reason, for me, should prevent anyone from barring jump shots.

I agree. You can ban jump cues, but you can't completely ban jump shots. Otherwise, everyone would have to use a soft break every time!

 

[OrigZaphod]

I agree. You can ban jump cues, but you can't completely ban jump shots. Otherwise, everyone would have to use a soft break every time!

Agree with you there, ban the cue not the shot, Using golf as an example would be the PGA banning drives over 250 yards or what ever.. Regardless if you can hit it with a 7 iron or a driver....

Saying I cant jump period if I hook myself, is hogwash. I was taught years ago there is Always a shot on the table, you just have to see it. That could be a jump.

I do not jump, never tried it, want to learn but havnt yet. But there have been times I know i could have used the talent, and instead had to play a safety.

 

[JB Cases]

I am watching the 2001 Challenge of Champions. Allen Hopkins stated that he thinks there should be a rule that if you hook yourself, you cannot jump. But, if your opponent hooks you, you can. What do you think of this?? Obviously, it never became a rule, because this is 8 years later. But, I think his idea has a lot of merit to it.

A shot is a shot. Who cares. This leads to all sorts of rules like no accidental safeties allowed. Remember how well that went? No of course not because the rule sucked.

How about if you hook yourself then you are only allowed to kick three rails blindfolded as proper punishment? Seriously if you hook yourself then you should have every legal shot available to you to get out of it.

Let's not make the game more complicated than it is.

 

[JB Cases]

I don't think that would be a good rule and I think it would lead to arguments about how much you are hooked, etc.... To me the more sensible rule is to ban the jump cue. Simply make it so that you can't use a jump cue or change shafts or cues after the break during a particular rack unless your cue was damaged in the ordinary course of play. So if you break your cue in anger you finish the rack with the biggest piece. You want to jump, use your playing cue. If your tip falls off, you can change shafts or cues. Simpler and better rule than the Hopkins proposal IMO. I am not really a proponent of jump cues, but am not a strong opponent of them either I guess. I think it is fine to leave it to different tournaments. For tournaments that want to regulate jumping, I think it is more workable to allow jumping with the playing cue. To me it is the same as a masse, if you have the skill to pull it off, do it, but I don't think a bag full of specialty trick shot cues is the best thing either, and I don't think pool should be a game where you have 12 cues for different shots and change around a lot. Someday a player will have a draw cue, a follow cue, a low deflection cue, meduium deflection cue, high deflection cue, heavy cue, light cue, 3 masse cues, a jump cue, a kick cue, and it will drive everybody nuts except a few vendors.:wink:

Do you think all pool cues are the same?

Does one "regular" pool cue facilitate the jump shot better than another one?

If we all agree that pool is about making shots and running out then why do we really care how that is accomplished as long as it isn't automatic?

I will tell you what if a player ran out a rack using a jump cue to make two spectacular jumps and a masse' cue to make two amazing masse' shots then that would become a youtube hit. Imagine doing it for $50,000

If jump cues and masse' cues had been invented 50 years ago then NO ONE would question them or their use today.

They are inert objects used to make a ball move. How well or how poorly they are used is ENTIRELY up to the player wielding them.

The PLAYER is the one that has to judge speed and spin and with a jump cue also angle of approach and force.

As for the idea that the jump cue is the reason people don't learn to kick I say that is nonsense. Every player who wants a well rounded game learns to kick, and jump, and carom, and ticky, and all the other things that a top player needs to know. If amateurs don't want to learn to kick then who are we to force them?

Should we ban kicking systems? Burn all the books and tapes that can teach an amateur in minutes how to be a kicking monster? A kicking system, like a jump cue, is just a tool that can be used correctly or incorrectly.

What everyone forgets is that there is no such thing as an "easy" shot. Every shot is a result of training and learning what to do in that situation. Even jumping with a jump cue is still a learned skill.

What makes the cue ball draw? The cue or the player?

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Some big tournaments do ban jump cues, not jump shots, but jump cues. The Swanee in Hollywood was played this way. You were allowed to use only your break cue or player to jump, but you couldn't break down your either to execute the shot.

I'm not sure why this is. Anyone know? My only thought was that is was to avoid any delay of play. But then again, if you are allowed to go back to the bench to get your break cue, then why can't you just grab a jump cue instead?

I'm sure there is a reason for this rule at some tournaments. Maybe Jay will check in here and enlighten me. I'll have to throw up the bat signal. :grin:

 

[jay helfert]

As a tournament director, it's not always my call to make. In the Swanee, Mark Griffin made the decision to not allow jump cues and that was fine with me. I was around long before there were jump cues, and then jumping with the shaft became popular. It amazed me what guys could do with the shaft of their playing cue. Soon after, a new market opened up for specialized jump cues. A million cues later and they are still selling them.

I don't really care one way of the other. On the one hand I think they look kind of quirky, kind of like the croquet style putter in vogue on the Senior golf tour until it was banned. No question they make jumping balls a lot easier. And I think the jump shot with a short cue is a pretty cool looking shot from a spectators point of view. But somehow they look like a club that doesn't belong in a pool player's bag. If you can jump with your playing cue then that's a very skillful shot. I've noticed the trend these days is to go back to not allowing jump cues.

So I am somewhat ambivalent as you can tell. I can take them or leave them either way. One of the problems with jump cues is determining what is a legal cue and what isn't. Until we have a universal organization that can make and enforce rules then it will remain each tournament promoter/directors decision to make. I sure wouldn't leave it up to the WPA to decide this one. They might decide to write an entire book on what constitutes a legal jump cue. And then you would need an interpreter to understand it all.

I guess at this point in time if it were up to me, I'd just leave them out.

 

[ShootingRazbone]

Good response Brady, I think you are probably in the mainstream of the younger guy's.

But you (and others) have not responded to my take on the integrity of the game.
Tiger knows he cannot use a 110 inch driver, or a "hot" golf ball.
Does pool have NO rules similar in regard to equipment standards.

Maybe they should think about adapting some, before we lose control to the manufacturers ! JMveryf***ingHO

Dick

Here lies the rub..... you are correct....Pool has NO rules in regard to equipment standards. I'll give you examples....

Go to a pool room and look at what balls they use... some have arimath with the measel cueball.... some have centiniels with the blue circle... some have centiniels with the red circle.... some have arimath balls with the arimath standardized cueball, go figure. SOME HAVE A LITTLE OF BOTH. Tommy Kennedy posted here once and talked about boxes and boxes of the same type of cueballs and being hard pressed to find a dozen the same size???? wtf

Diamond wont use centiniels ... hmmm.... oh yea, Brunswick product. Where I play and the surrounding area, Diamond tables are non existent. You will find Kim Steel or GC's. I find myself used to the GC and the smaller centiniel balls and then struggle like a noob to even hold my stick correctly on the Diamond while using the BIGGER arimath balls.

I'll take it further here. Where is the Govening Body of the world pool scene? How many small tours do we have listed on the tourny page here at AZBilliards? Who is in charge here and why? The WPA is having trouble with dates because Dragon Promo is sticking one in them ... why? How is this good for the players and the pool scene in general? That being said.... if Allen Hopkins wants to step up and make suggestions, a valid suggestion at that, then more power to him. Certainly if there can't be a standardized cueball or a standardized pool table or a standardized governing body governing these sort of things to jump or not to jump isn't my biggest question or concern atm. Anyone tell me what the name of the 45th ranked player in the world is? The 45th ranked golfer is making around 600k a year while this pool player who should be, isn't, and playing next to me at the local pool room/crack house for 80 dollars first place!

All that being said ... I say JUMP! :thumbup:

SORRY FOR THE RANT

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

So then, the reason for some tournaments not allowing the jump cue is twofold: 1) Maintain the shot difficulty of executing a jump shot and 2) Some question as to their legality (i.e. conforming to length requirements).

Thanks, Jay.

 

[JPB]

Good response Brady, I think you are probably in the mainstream of the younger guy's.

But you (and others) have not responded to my take on the integrity of the game.
Tiger knows he cannot use a 110 inch driver, or a "hot" golf ball.
Does pool have NO rules similar in regard to equipment standards.

Maybe they should think about adapting some, before we lose control to the manufacturers ! JMveryf***ingHO

Dick

Actually, I think golf is an example of a sport that did not regulate equipment enough. The problem that the failure to regulate the ball and also driver/ball optimization has led to is huge. Why it is huge is that the playing field in pool is confined and relatively cheap. A table is 9' and costs a few thousand. In golf, the course is very expensive and difficult to maintain, and the necessity of adding length to courses can prove to be an expensive disaster. I agree the failure to regulate enough hurts the integrity of the game. In golf, the "solution" has been to modify priceless courses at great expense instead of modifying a $3 ball that winds up lost or in the water anyway. Not a good trade IMO.

 

[SJDinPHX]

As a tournament director, it's not always my call to make. In the Swanee, Mark Griffin made the decision to not allow jump cues and that was fine with me. I was around long before there were jump cues, and then jumping with the shaft became popular. It amazed me what guys could do with the shaft of their playing cue. Soon after, a new market opened up for specialized jump cues. A million cues later and they are still selling them.

I don't really care one way of the other. On the one hand I think they look kind of quirky, kind of like the croquet style putter in vogue on the Senior golf tour until it was banned. No question they make jumping balls a lot easier. And I think the jump shot with a short cue is a pretty cool looking shot from a spectators point of view. But somehow they look like a club that doesn't belong in a pool player's bag. If you can jump with your playing cue then that's a very skillful shot. I've noticed the trend these days is to go back to not allowing jump cues.

So I am somewhat ambivalent as you can tell. I can take them or leave them either way. One of the problems with jump cues is determining what is a legal cue and what isn't. Until we have a universal organization that can make and enforce rules then it will remain each tournament promoter/directors decision to make. I sure wouldn't leave it up to the WPA to decide this one. They might decide to write an entire book on what constitutes a legal jump cue. And then you would need an interpreter to understand it all.

I guess at this point in time if it were up to me, I'd just leave them out.

Well said as usual Jay.

I never once said ban jump shots. I simply said why should a skilled player need a special cue to perform the shot. Oh...because it makes it easier...?
As one poster said, pretty soon we'll need 12-14 cues to perform all the different functions.....draw, follow, masse, jump, etc.

It is true that golf does offer different clubs for different functions, but they in their wisdom, have limited how many clubs a player may carry in his bag. Plus they deal with uneven surfaces, hazards, and distances a little longer than 9 feet.
Using some pool players logic, they should carry 300 clubs for every imaginable distance they could possibly encounter.

Pool is played on a small, flat regular surface. Do we need a cue that will only hit the ball 4 inches, and another to hit it 8 feet.

A special cue, to perform a special function, is NOT the way the game was ever intended to be played.

Jumpers, rail to your hearts content....it is falling on deaf ears with this old purist.

Learn to execute ANY given shot with your standard, legal length, multi-deflection type shaft, with your layered tip, or give up the game.

Dick <----is glad he only needed one cue, to do whatever needed to be done. (I used to save my good cue and tip, by breaking with a house cue, unheard of today...isn't it ? )

 

[Mark Griffin]

Swanee and jump shots (cues)

Great thread and a lot of interesting viewpoints.

First of all, you can NEVER ban jump shots - they happen all the time - from a break shot to any shot with an elevated cue.

This talks only of jump CUES.

Firstly, The Swanee tournament has been around since 1997. I believe we went to rack your own and no jump cues around 1999 or 2000. The rack your own was the best thing I ever did with this event. The no jump cue was always accepted and almost never contested.

As an 'old schooler' (but never in the speed of some old schoolers) - I do not really care for jump cues. If you have the ability to jump with a normal cue - MORE POWER TO YOU. I kinda agree with SJD about equipment standards.

Unfortunately, standards are hard to come by. Cues are pretty much standard - as are ball tolerances. There are all kinds of differences in table pocket sizes and angles, and cloth etc. On several occasions, the BCA tried to establish standards and the main manufaacturers would not readily agree to accept any standards.

Golf is different than pool. But it is interesting that snooker does not allow any jumping. Straight pool and one pocket do not normally allow jump cues, although jumping is allowed. Usually one only sees a 'slight' elevation to go over the edge of a ball etc.

There are a lot of jump cues sold. To not allow them could cause some damage to a lot of billiard mfg and retailers.

So in short - I personally do not like jump cues. If I could disallow them without hurting anyone, I would probably do so.

But that is not going to happen in the next day or so. One last thought is that the public gets more excited about a great jump shot than almost any other shot - why is that???

Mark Griffin

 

[Johnnyt]

I say kick for it. If you miss give me BIH. I have a jump cue now because everybody has one...just like a handgun. Johnnyt

 

[JB Cases]

Great thread and a lot of interesting viewpoints.

First of all, you can NEVER ban jump shots - they happen all the time - from a break shot to any shot with an elevated cue.

This talks only of jump CUES.

Firstly, The Swanee tournament has been around since 1997. I believe we went to rack your own and no jump cues around 1999 or 2000. The rack your own was the best thing I ever did with this event. The no jump cue was always accepted and almost never contested.

As an 'old schooler' (but never in the speed of some old schoolers) - I do not really care for jump cues. If you have the ability to jump with a normal cue - MORE POWER TO YOU. I kinda agree with SJD about equipment standards.

Some "normal" cues are more suited to jumping than others so it's not all skill on the player's part either. A jump cue levels the playing field making the shot available to all players and THEN it's about the skill.

Unfortunately, standards are hard to come by. Cues are pretty much standard - as are ball tolerances. There are all kinds of differences in table pocket sizes and angles, and cloth etc. On several occasions, the BCA tried to establish standards and the main manufaacturers would not readily agree to accept any standards.

Gee that's a surprise since the main manufacturers run (I mean own) the BCA.

Golf is different than pool. But it is interesting that snooker does not allow any jumping. Straight pool and one pocket do not normally allow jump cues, although jumping is allowed. Usually one only sees a 'slight' elevation to go over the edge of a ball etc.

In snooker there is also no requirement to hit a rail after contact. The rules are quite different. Straight pool and one pocket do not disallow jump shots or jump cues in their rules as far as I know. If the cues are banned then it's at the tournament level and that is a shame.

There are a lot of jump cues sold. To not allow them could cause some damage to a lot of billiard mfg and retailers.

Well, they are pretty good sellers. But you have to ask yourself WHY? They sell well because the rules have changed so that the penalty for not hitting the object ball are severe. When 9-ball was 2-shot push out that you and I both grew up on we didn't think anything about jump cues. There was hardly any need for them. NOW you have tournaments that are decided by purely lucky rolls where one player misses and leaves a tough kick that the incoming players misses and it's ball in hand and goodnight. You take away the jump cue then you take away a vast range of shots that a player can defend with. I wish I had a video camera on the shots I have made in competition these past few months. There is no doubt that each one of them requires a high degree of skill and knowledge. If making balls do what we want them to isn't what pool is about then what is?

So in short - I personally do not like jump cues. If I could disallow them without hurting anyone, I would probably do so.

Why not change the rules so that they are not needed? Go back to two shot push out rules?

I honestly cannot understand why people don't see the the jump cue in the same way that we see the leather tip. What does a leather tip do? It holds chalk and holds it's shape so that we can impart spin to the ball. By itself it doesn't make anyone into a champion but without a champion looks like an amateur. All the leather tip does is provide the environment to draw the cueball four rails for pinpoint shape it doesn't perform the shot. Without a leather tip on a cue the range of possible shots is greatly dimished, and without chalk on the leather tip the shots are diminished as well.

The jump cue is the exact same, no different, it's a tool that facilitates the game by providing an environment where more shots can be made. Without a jump cue the range of jump shots is greatly diminished - even for the best player. With a jump cue the range of possible shots increases dramatically but the jump cue is only as good as the operator.

But that is not going to happen in the next day or so. One last thought is that the public gets more excited about a great jump shot than almost any other shot - why is that???

Mark Griffin

Because Mark it's exciting to see a player control the cue ball not only on on plane but also in three dimensional space as well.

You all complain about jump shots being so easy well have you considered that on a jump shot you have to do EVERYTHING that you would do on any other shot, calculate the speed you are going to use, decide on the spin you need, think about position, AND THEN ALSO think about which angle and trajectory to use?

I think that this is the fundamental thing that pisses purists off. They think that jump shots with a jump cue are easy and automatic but that kick shots are very hard in comparison. Thus when the public goes crazy over a jump shot but fails to applaud a well done kick shot it rankles them.

SJM? Am I right?

I wish that the purists could begin to understand that the jump cue is no different than the normal cue in that they both are used for different aspects of the game. On top of that a kicking system and a jump cue are also the same. Should I get high praise because I can count diamonds and therefore my kicking percentage is well above 50%?

Am I cheating or going against tradition when I measure my kicks and banks according to geometric systems that are nearly foolproof?

Try jumping six feet into a six inch cluster where you have to make the ball and draw back for shape to have any chance of winning at all. If you don't think that shots like that are skill shots then I guess there is no middle ground to meet on.

Mark, I can't tell you the amount of your players who have come up to me with tears of JOY after learning to jump using a jump cue at the BCA Nationals and who then successfully used their new tool and skill to go with it to help their team win a match.

It's not just vendors and manufacturers who benefit here. It's tons of amateur players who love having a wider range of shots available to them.

You made the rules, we jump cue makers just filled the need created by those rules. Now the art of jumping has come so far that there is no denying that people want to be able to do these shots and they enjoy them.

I think it's absurdly wrong for promoters to play with the jump cue rules and other rules at every event.

This practice is one HUGE REASON why pool can't advance.

No one knows the rules.

 

[JB Cases]

Well said as usual Jay.

I never once said ban jump shots. I simply said why should a skilled player need a special cue to perform the shot. Oh...because it makes it easier...?
As one poster said, pretty soon we'll need 12-14 cues to perform all the different functions.....draw, follow, masse, jump, etc.

It is true that golf does offer different clubs for different functions, but they in their wisdom, have limited how many clubs a player may carry in his bag. Plus they deal with uneven surfaces, hazards, and distances a little longer than 9 feet.
Using some pool players logic, they should carry 300 clubs for every imaginable distance they could possibly encounter.

Pool is played on a small, flat regular surface. Do we need a cue that will only hit the ball 4 inches, and another to hit it 8 feet.

A special cue, to perform a special function, is NOT the way the game was ever intended to be played.

Jumpers, rail to your hearts content....it is falling on deaf ears with this old purist.

Learn to execute ANY given shot with your standard, legal length, multi-deflection type shaft, with your layered tip, or give up the game.

Dick <----is glad he only needed one cue, to do whatever needed to be done. (I used to save my good cue and tip, by breaking with a house cue, unheard of today...isn't it ? )

Well, if that's the case then why don't we make all cues the exact same?

No one gets a special taper, or tips, or grip, or balance. Make one standard cue and everyone has to use only that.

If anyone wants to bet $10,000 I will give the best full cue jumper on earth two so-called normal cues. With these two cues this champion can run racks, draw, follow and masse' about the same.

With Cue #1 however he will be able to retain his status as Full Cue Jump Champion.

With Cue #2 he will like a rank amateur trying to get balls to jump.

You all act like all cues are suited to jumping balls. They aren't. Some full cues are just better at jump shots by the nature of their construction. Consequently the accomplished player who happens to use that brand of cue looks like a jumping champion while the other player with another brand always struggles.

So I call bunk on this one cue for all shots nonsense. Naturally I don't want to see a guy switching cues for every shot but to say that Jump Cues equate to that is nonsense. The jump shot is the type of shot that is very cue specific. Some cues are better than others.

Thus a jump cue which makes it equal for everyone, just like a leather tip, is the fairest way to see who has true skill and who does not.

I know that you are deaf to this argument Dick but this answer is meant for the wider audience.

 

[SJDinPHX]

Well, if that's the case then why don't we make all cues the exact same?

No one gets a special taper, or tips, or grip, or balance. Make one standard cue and everyone has to use only that.

If anyone wants to bet $10,000 I will give the best full cue jumper on earth two so-called normal cues. With these two cues this champion can run racks, draw, follow and masse' about the same.

With Cue #1 however he will be able to retain his status as Full Cue Jump Champion.

With Cue #2 he will like a rank amateur trying to get balls to jump.

You all act like all cues are suited to jumping balls. They aren't. Some full cues are just better at jump shots by the nature of their construction. Consequently the accomplished player who happens to use that brand of cue looks like a jumping champion while the other player with another brand always struggles.

So I call bunk on this one cue for all shots nonsense. Naturally I don't want to see a guy switching cues for every shot but to say that Jump Cues equate to that is nonsense. The jump shot is the type of shot that is very cue specific. Some cues are better than others.

Thus a jump cue which makes it equal for everyone, just like a leather tip, is the fairest way to see who has true skill and who does not.

I know that you are deaf to this argument Dick but this answer is meant for the wider audience.

John,

Are you quitting the Cue Case business and focusing on jump cues now.
A Washington lobbyist could not come off as anymore "pro" something.
Your picking apart of Mark, or Jay or my position on jump cues is a real revalation given your outlook.
You are certainly right about one thing, a rule change back to the old way would end the dispute. for the better IMO

And sure, jump shots are exciting for spectators, most of them go wild over a 3 rail slop shot too. Or better yet a Mike Massey special trick shot.

You are also right about it falling on deaf ears to a purist.
Jump cues are a bastardization of the game. The skill needed to successfully jump a ball, with a jump cue,can be learned in 30 minutes by almost any banger out there.

Unless the OB is hanging in the jaws, what is the success ratio of jump shots, other than avoiding BIH or hoping to "luck" into a return safety

I am NOT anti-jumping, I am anti jump cue's.

You call it progress, I call it a gimmick that enables a "C" player to stumble out of a trap.

Amongst two evenly matched pro's, its a wash. They can jump 90% of the shots WITHOUT a specially designed cue. If you don't think so, would you play SVB, or Darren, or Alex, if they were not allowed to use a jump cue, and you were ?

Plain and simply, jump cues are an unnecessary gimmick, and I am surprised that someone of your age, and experience, so avidly defends them.

Dick

 

[Flex]

I guess I'm not seeing the problem with having to draw a line about what is and what is not a hook.

It seems to me the issue would only come up when the shooter wants to execute a jump shot during the course of his own run, since he would be allowed to jump on a leave from an opponent.

I saw the telecast in which Hopkins made that comment and really his statement includes a pretty valid assumption that a player would only wish to execute a jump shot if he is hooked. This, I suppose could be partially or fully hooked. But in any event there really does not need to be an issue as to whether an opponent is "hooked" or not. I'm sure Hopkins would say just make the rule that a player cannot execute a jump shot during the course of his own run, period. No arguments and no debates over whether a "hook" exists. I don't think I've yet seen a situation where a player chose a jump shot when he had full access to the object ball. I wouldn't be surprised if it's ever happened, but come on, it would be very rare.

I saw someone jump the cue ball into the legal object ball which in turn jumped over an intervening ball and went straight into the pocket. It was in a game of 9 ball, and yes, the shot was intentional. Nice shot, gotta say.

Flex

P.S. Much as Allen Hopkins is an excellent player, I don't think we should make him into an oracle of how things should be. I couldn't disagree with him more on this jumping stuff. Sort of reminds me of some comments made by Jude some time back, but that's another story.

 

[Flex]

I don't think anyone would really argue that you aren't hooked in that case. Rule is simply that you can't jump when you put the cb where it is, except on a push out. That elimates all arguments.

Bad rule.

Also, it isn't a rule yet, just a crazy idea from a good player. I say "drop this stinkin' 'rule'!!"

How about little jump masse shots??

Gimme a break, this idea is crazy.

Flex