Nice box cue almost ready

So what you are saying is it is OK to copy a cue if the parts are not original. In other words, the sum of the parts, or the design of the cue, has nothing to do with it?

Here is a magnificent Showman cue. Non of the parts are really original, but the sum of the parts screams it's a John Showman.

showman.jpg


Now maybe I'm in the market for a cue and love the Showman but can't afford to pay $6-$7K for it. So the best thing for me to do is to find a lesser known cuemaker and commission him to build me a Showman look-alike for $1.5K?

I'm just trying to understand the logic...
 
Worminator-
While I understnad your point, there is a tremendous difference (at least to me).

If one were to copy the elements of the Showman posted, it just might be crossing the line. Whiel many cuemakers do propellor inlays, John made the 'sharpened propellors' (for lack of a better term) somewhat of a signature of his. And the stacked veneer above the buttcap may not have been invented by John, but its become another Showman-esque element. Copying the look above would be definitely crossing a line. Making a traditional looking cue (WITHOUT the sharpened propellor or the stacked veneer) would be... well, a dime a dozen. It could be a Jerry Raunezahn. A Mottey. A Scruggs. A Weston. A Klein. Just about ANYONE. Its a classic look that many cuemakers use.

While I understand that there are elements in the Kikel and the Gracio that are similar, there is nothing that is a definitive Kikel element. Its a blackwood window cue with a maple burl handle. And while the windows may be similar, they are not exact. Someone liked the look and made a few changes here and there. But the cue is NOT the same. One cuemaker/customer took a style that they liked and made some tweaks to it as, the style was not a 100% Kikel design but rather a design with some common elements. Much the same way John Showman's cues showcase a classic style made popular by the likes of Gus Szamboti. Still, he added his own tweaks to his cues to make them distinctly his. That's really all that happened here in my opinion and in no way a 'knockoff'.
 
dave sutton said:
this is the stupidest thread ive ever read. who cares. the cues have similar inlays in a completely different pattern.

there isnt one part the either of these cues that is original. just inlays placed in unique places. different from eachother.
jamie and dave borrowed these inlays just the same as they may have borrowed them from you

both very nice cues tho

calling SG a ripoff isnt a great move. i have a feeling he will be doing some of the most amazing arrangements in the world!!
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Dave
look at where it comes from... let one of these poeple step up to the plate and do what scotts doing its easy to sit back and take cheap shots at someone Scott Gracio is first a gentleman and on the way to the top as far as cue makers go... plus he is a personal friend . there are so many designs out there and differant configuations whos to say what you can and cant do or if its copying something i personally dont think either dean or scott intentionally tired to copy that cue also if dean wanted an original im sure he could afford it. i have also done a few deals with dean and hes soild as they come i wish everyone out there in the pool world was like these two guys it would be better for everyone .....
 
I 100% agree

mia said:
Worminator-
While I understnad your point, there is a tremendous difference (at least to me).

If one were to copy the elements of the Showman posted, it just might be crossing the line. Whiel many cuemakers do propellor inlays, John made the 'sharpened propellors' (for lack of a better term) somewhat of a signature of his. And the stacked veneer above the buttcap may not have been invented by John, but its become another Showman-esque element. Copying the look above would be definitely crossing a line. Making a traditional looking cue (WITHOUT the sharpened propellor or the stacked veneer) would be... well, a dime a dozen. It could be a Jerry Raunezahn. A Mottey. A Scruggs. A Weston. A Klein. Just about ANYONE. Its a classic look that many cuemakers use.

While I understand that there are elements in the Kikel and the Gracio that are similar, there is nothing that is a definitive Kikel element. Its a blackwood window cue with a maple burl handle. And while the windows may be similar, they are not exact. Someone liked the look and made a few changes here and there. But the cue is NOT the same. One cuemaker/customer took a style that they liked and made some tweaks to it as, the style was not a 100% Kikel design but rather a design with some common elements. Much the same way John Showman's cues showcase a classic style made popular by the likes of Gus Szamboti. Still, he added his own tweaks to his cues to make them distinctly his. That's really all that happened here in my opinion and in no way a 'knockoff'.
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Very well stated comment Sir!


<M>
 
A big part of the issue here is it is subjective in nature which is why it is tough to sway another person's opinion or perception. Some think the Gracio is a "knockoff" of the Kikel, and some don't.

I felt the Kikel is VERY unique design... maybe not the parts, but the sum is. That is only my opinion, I totally get that. But from the first picture Dave sent me of the cue, I thought is was a very well thought out design. Especially his use of the hardwoods of Permanbucco and Satinwood for the veneered inlays and dots.

Believe me, I am not a fan of every design Dave comes up with, and I am the first to tell that. But when he gets it right, he really can come up with some unique stuff.

So for the Showman analogy, if I was the buyer and told the cuemaker to replace the "sharpened" propeller with a standard one, and leave off the stacked veneer ringwork, and keep the rest of the design elements of the cue the same, then it would be OK?

I am seriously just trying to understand where people feel the line is crossed. It is obvious the line is very wide and gray....
 
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Worminator said:
So for the Showman analogy, if I was the buyer and told the cuemaker to replace the "sharpened" propeller with a standard one, and leave off the stacked veneer ringwork, and keep the rest of the design elements of the cue the same, then it would be OK?

I am seriously just trying to understand where people feel the line is crossed. It is obvious the line is very wide and gray....
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If the buyer told the cuemaker to leave off the sharpened propellor, replace with a STANDARD propellor, AND drop the stacked veneer ring at the base, I would say... 'Classic look. Done a thousand times over. Hard to label it as a copy because, well tons of cuemaker have done 4 point cues with propellor inlays and that Boti look'.

But John found a way to make the look uniquely 'him'. And he does it well. He took a classic design and found a way to improve on it or at least make it 'him'.

The thing is, with the Kikel, its some pretty standard elements. Boxes. Barbells. Clovers. Notched diamonds. Dark forearm and buttsleeve. Light segmented handle. Nothing about the cue is distinctly 'Dave Kikel'. Its some standard elements that another cuemaker used at a customer's request. And the final product, while similar, is actually a different take on someone else's use of some standard elements. Its not a copy. At least, that's how I see it. Then again (and I say this a lot) what do I know? lol


In fact, looking back, the kikel is a silver window with a niched diamond and dots in it seperated by colored barbells with clovers at each end.

The Gracio is a silver box with a smaller, different notched diamond and barbells and clovers inside. Techincally, its a difference of two window in the butt and 4 window in the butt. And what's IN the windows is completely different. So I have to say... they're too different to be labeled 'too similar'. Sorry.
 
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The stacked veneer is not a showman original,Gus Szamboti did them,I had one.It was the cue Gus had on his lathe during his final days,I gave it to Barry at a nice price,it is the only cue of his dads that he has.

The stacked veneers are on my playing cue at present and I did not even know Showman ever saw one.I have seen several .

I have a friend,one of the largest cue buyers in the world,and I asked him to review the discussion and tell me in all candor if he though I had done anything wrong,he told me I had not,the cues were not really that close anyway,He also told me that he thought Jamie had a reputation for being a worthy person.

It is not necessary to hurt someone elses reutation to defend myself or Scott,but this thread has taken a turn toward hurting Scott or lessening his reputation whether it be admitted or not

I urge you to carry this discussion,debate,to another place and discuss it in a civilized manner with no names stated or implied.I doubt that it will be so heated then. I entreat you to keep these heated conversation private or at least off of another mans thread,where his recognition is lost in the confusion of heated statements

thank you for consideration

DEAN
 
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Hahahaha

icon2 said:
. . . not if you and deanoc keep commissioning knock offs, of other makers work.

there is a terrible lack of originality in cue design!
a lot of it can be traced back to the buyers, but the makers can't plead ignorance.

that is an attractive cue, but i personally wouldn't take much pride in something so similar in design, to another maker/buyers design efforts.
. . . as a maker, or a buyer.
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Me and Dean are out to destroy the industry....Or is that just your twisted opinion Jeff. You really arent a Buyer OR a maker these days are you ?
 
tikkler said:
Me and Dean are out to destroy the industry....Or is that just your twisted opinion Jeff. You really arent a Buyer OR a maker these days are you ?
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are you posting in code, steve?
yes, recently i've bought cues, traded cues, and sold cues . . . is that a prerequisite to have an opinion on this subject?
maker? no i don't make cues!?
sure don't think lack of originality is going to destroy the industry.
. . . it's been the mainstay! :)
 
help

icon2 said:
are you posting in code, steve?
yes, recently i've bought cues, traded cues, and sold cues . . . is that a prerequisite to have an opinion on this subject?
maker? no i don't make cues!?
sure don't think lack of originality is going to destroy the industry.
. . . it's been the mainstay! :)
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no code.....just wondering if this is an up day or a down day for you ole buddy.....

What you are calling design theft is wizzing around in your own mind. I personally dont see it in this cue. What I do see is an exceptional piece of work by a very talented cuemaker
 
deanoc said:
The stacked veneer is not a showman original,Gus Szamboti did them,I had one.It was the cue Gus had on his lathe during his final days,I gave it to Barry at a nice price,it is the only cue of his dads that he has.

The stacked veneers are on my playing cue at present and I did not even know Showman ever saw one.I have seen several .

I have a friend,one of the largest cue buyers in the world,and I asked him to review the discussion and tell me in all candor if he though I had done anything wrong,he told me I had not,the cues were not really that close anyway,He also told me that he thought Jamie had a reputation for being a worthy person.

It is not necessary to hurt someone elses reutation to defend myself or Scott,but this thread has taken a turn toward hurting Scott or lessening his reputation whether it be admitted or not

I urge you to carry this discussion,debate,to another place and discuss it in a civilized manner with no names stated or implied.I doubt that it will be so heated then. I entreat you to keep these heated conversation private or at least off of another mans thread,where his recognition is lost in the confusion of heated statements

thank you for consideration

DEAN
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I agree that this thread went unneccessarily off course. Scott made a great looking cue so congrats are in order.

For the record though, I never said Showman created the stacked veneer ring. But he has made it an element in many of his cues.
 
tikkler said:
no code.....just wondering if this is an up day or a down day for you ole buddy.....

What you are calling design theft is wizzing around in your own mind. I personally dont see it in this cue. What I do see is an exceptional piece of work by a very talented cuemaker
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well, good that you formed an opinion, steve! :thumbup2:
you still don't make a whole lot of sense though . . .
 
i'm not sure if scott appreciates the way this thread has gone,but its been my experience that the more some complain,the more business i do. i have noticed that scott is getting new orders and i am recieving calls of encouragement and offers to build cues for me from cue makers

remember when i first got on here with my original deano cuethat made me play beffer.i got dozens of replies calling me a crook etc,but in about 2 weeks i sold 70 deano cues.I welcome the controversy as far as i am concerned because i enjoy getting more business.

cue makers and people looking for great cues are invited to continue calling tobuy or sell or just visit about cues

214 477 7323

dean
 
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hmmmm

icon2 said:
well, good that you formed an opinion, steve! :thumbup2:
you still don't make a whole lot of sense though . . .
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maybe its time for a little something to get your mind straight tonight
why dont you go do what your gonna do and when you come back, it might make sense then
 
tikkler said:
maybe its time for a little something to get your mind straight tonight
why dont you go do what your gonna do and when you come back, it might make sense then
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talking code again, steve?
the buyer wanted the original cue . . .
the buyer ordered a similar cue . . .
the maker admits looking at the cue, because the buyer wanted something similar.
yet, you can't see any similarities!? :)

instead of making goofy insinuations, why don't you just spit it out, steve?
i don't drink alcohol or abuse drugs!?
maybe you need to get a some help with your vision?
course you post that you don't offer any input on your cue orders as far as design . . .
 
With all due respect, this thread is spiralign out of control quickly.

The cues are similar. This much is true. But the Gracio is in no way a knock off of the Kikel. It may have been inspired by a particular design, but it stands on its own as a beautiful cue and some great work by the cuemaker.

Let's leave it at that and if tikkler and icon want to duke it out, either do so via PM or offline.

Congrats on a great looking cue.
 
I think

its time for the Moderator to delete this thread! A lot of comments that are here are unnecessary!


Originated from Kikel? Yes! Similary and Originality? Yes! Same? No! Simple as that! Again, its Customer design adn he builds it! If I was on the same shoe I would have done the similar decision!


like what Mia stated!


Im still wondering though? If another cuemaker did this, would the topic be brought up? I think some people just like to pick on people!

<M>
 
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