Tap, tap, tap
Nice box cue almost ready
- Thread starter Graciocues
- Start date
Tap, tap, tap
This is the pot calling the kettle black IMO. You wanted the Kikel from the minute you saw it, but I could not give you the 30%+ discount you wanted on the cue. You then contacted a lesser known cuemaker and had a very similar cue built.
Dean, I know you are a well respected member of the forum and cue collecting/dealing community and I certainly appreciate that. I also know the inspiration for the Gracio cue came directly from the Kikel... I don't how anyone could deny that.
It's just disappointing when this kind of thing happens. Dave and I spent a lot of time designing that cue, and to see someone take the liberty to build basically the same cue, and not give credit to the inspiration of the cue is something that just disappoints me.
I will not lose sleep over it, and I am wasting too much energy even typing about it. But it just hit a little too close to home for me given the situation.
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I'm not sure it is being denied. I just think that there are enough differences to set them apart from one another.
Like I said earlier... I happen to like the Gracio a bit better (JMO) as I'm sure Dean does. So what's wrong with the idea of taking someone else's design and improving on it? To me, that's called progress which I always thought was a positive thing.
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I personally find this offensive. Here you have a great looking build from a newer cuemaker. Instead of congratulating him on his fine, hard work, it turns to this. The many hours Mr. Gracio spent both designing with the customer and building this fine looking cue have now seem to have gone to the way side.
I see this way to many times on many of the pool related forums. In no way do I believe Mr. Gracio is at fault here. I get many requests for similar type builds per customer requests. As have every cuemaker here on this forum has at one time or another in the careers.
I think folks forget, we have to eat to. We are all not upper tere cuemakers to where we turn away work just because.
We should celebrate the fine build Mr. Gracio and many others have built and encourage them on in their talents.
I for one would like to say fine work Scott, the cue looks flawless and very well constructed! Congrats on a fine build and I hope to see more from you and many others to come.
Build on !!!
I see this way to many times on many of the pool related forums. In no way do I believe Mr. Gracio is at fault here. I get many requests for similar type builds per customer requests. As have every cuemaker here on this forum has at one time or another in the careers.
I think folks forget, we have to eat to. We are all not upper tere cuemakers to where we turn away work just because.
We should celebrate the fine build Mr. Gracio and many others have built and encourage them on in their talents.
I for one would like to say fine work Scott, the cue looks flawless and very well constructed! Congrats on a fine build and I hope to see more from you and many others to come.
Build on !!!
Scott Gracio's work is outstanding
Mr. Lee,
I couldn't agree more. Thank you for taking the time to stand up for Scott's workmanship, creativity, and honorable way he has ignored the ugly comments.
I have held this cue in my hands, before Scott changed out the double black linen butt cap and joint to ivory, and replaced the complicated ringwork. He didn't complain, he just completed the work as another daily challenge. He could of bad mouthed the customer, complained, but that's not Scott. I've known Scott for a few years, been to his house, he's been to mine, and Scott is one of the nicest, most polite, positive, and fun guys to get to know. He doesn't walk around with a chip on his shoulders like some of the nits on this forum.
These personal attacks are wrong and take away from the rising star we see developing. Scott, keep up the FANTASTIC workmanship and customer relationships.
You go MAN!!!
John
Mr. Lee,
I couldn't agree more. Thank you for taking the time to stand up for Scott's workmanship, creativity, and honorable way he has ignored the ugly comments.
I have held this cue in my hands, before Scott changed out the double black linen butt cap and joint to ivory, and replaced the complicated ringwork. He didn't complain, he just completed the work as another daily challenge. He could of bad mouthed the customer, complained, but that's not Scott. I've known Scott for a few years, been to his house, he's been to mine, and Scott is one of the nicest, most polite, positive, and fun guys to get to know. He doesn't walk around with a chip on his shoulders like some of the nits on this forum.
These personal attacks are wrong and take away from the rising star we see developing. Scott, keep up the FANTASTIC workmanship and customer relationships.
You go MAN!!!
John
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I don't remember anyone saying there was a problem with the build quality of the cue. In fact it appears to be very well done . I have been watching and have admired many of his cues but I wish he would have used some of that talant and come up with his own unique design as Dave did.
Since there was nothing done here that was the least bit shady,I admit freely that I admired the Kikel cue from the first time I saw it. Jamie did offer me 30% off since he wants the truth out and I didn't want it for that much.
I asked Scott to look at this cue and several others,I wanted something similar not exactly like it.Dots,3 dot patterns,silver ring work are all common patterns,boxes even silver boxes are common. Any one can see the two cues are similar in some respect and different in others.I have done nothing to be ashamed of in this transaction and neither has Scott.The 2 cues are not exact and nothing is common to the 2 that originated with either.
Jamie did offer me the 30% off contrary to his remarks,and I don't appreciate him implying that I was involved in a shady practice.The only questionable practice I see(and it looks like most azers agree )is Jamie hijacking this young cue makers thread and trying to smear his name for reasons that are transparent.
I don't appreciate Jamie and his caustic remarks,and these are not the first time I have seen him trying to bully me.
I have recieved calls from cuemakers offering to build me box cues with similar classic designs today.
Also I like Kikel cues ,I think they play very nicely and this answer is not in any way directed at Kikel.
Again take at look at the beautiful Gracio cue,the more I see it the more I like it,I'll let you know how it hits
dean
I asked Scott to look at this cue and several others,I wanted something similar not exactly like it.Dots,3 dot patterns,silver ring work are all common patterns,boxes even silver boxes are common. Any one can see the two cues are similar in some respect and different in others.I have done nothing to be ashamed of in this transaction and neither has Scott.The 2 cues are not exact and nothing is common to the 2 that originated with either.
Jamie did offer me the 30% off contrary to his remarks,and I don't appreciate him implying that I was involved in a shady practice.The only questionable practice I see(and it looks like most azers agree )is Jamie hijacking this young cue makers thread and trying to smear his name for reasons that are transparent.
I don't appreciate Jamie and his caustic remarks,and these are not the first time I have seen him trying to bully me.
I have recieved calls from cuemakers offering to build me box cues with similar classic designs today.
Also I like Kikel cues ,I think they play very nicely and this answer is not in any way directed at Kikel.
Again take at look at the beautiful Gracio cue,the more I see it the more I like it,I'll let you know how it hits
dean
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Dean,
I never, ever offered the Kikel to you, or anyone else for 30% off. Somehow you got it in your head that I made that offer to, and then you tried to convince me I should sell the cue to you for less than I paid for it... that just doesn't add up. That is how this whole thing got started in the first place.
Enjoy your Gracio cue... I'm sure it will serve you well for many years. I'm not knocking Scott's work, I think it looks excellent.
In the long run, it seems the cuemakers who have their work emulated are the ones that have the most success.
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After changing the butt cap to Ivory I think it added to the similarities. Dean wanted silver boxes and dots. He liked the old look of the little flower inlays and barbells. I put the diamonds in because I put them in every cue the owner lets me. I wanted to add some propellers and a few other old style inlays and he didn't want that look. There are only so many ways I can add all the design ideas he wanted.
We talked about the Kikel and several other cues. They all had similar inlays, boxes, and placement. I felt we did a good job of combining the ideas he wanted. Dean is a reputable person in the cue world and he knows what he wants. I think he was testing my ability and I can't wait for him to get the cue.
Dean, If you want me to add to the design and change the look I will do it for free. If David wants me to change the look I will.
I feel the cue has many design differences using the same common design ideas. My Wife is taking better pictures to show the complete cue in comparison.
After changing the butt cap to Ivory I think it added to the similarities. Dean wanted silver boxes and dots. He liked the old look of the little flower inlays and barbells. I put the diamonds in because I put them in every cue the owner lets me. I wanted to add some propellers and a few other old style inlays and he didn't want that look. There are only so many ways I can add all the design ideas he wanted.
We talked about the Kikel and several other cues. They all had similar inlays, boxes, and placement. I felt we did a good job of combining the ideas he wanted. Dean is a reputable person in the cue world and he knows what he wants. I think he was testing my ability and I can't wait for him to get the cue.
Dean, If you want me to add to the design and change the look I will do it for free. If David wants me to change the look I will.
I feel the cue has many design differences using the same common design ideas. My Wife is taking better pictures to show the complete cue in comparison.
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LittleMonster
Banned
Tap Tap Tap.
Similar, yes. But different enough to stand on its own.
Great Job Scott.
Scott,
Have fun in Vegas. Lucky dog!!!
John
Have fun in Vegas. Lucky dog!!!
John
Like Steve and many other have said, Incredible , similar, but stands on its own. Fantastic. Thanks for showing it. Jim
. . . not if you and deanoc keep commissioning knock offs, of other makers work.
there is a terrible lack of originality in cue design!
a lot of it can be traced back to the buyers, but the makers can't plead ignorance.
that is an attractive cue, but i personally wouldn't take much pride in something so similar in design, to another maker/buyers design efforts.
. . . as a maker, or a buyer.
dave sutton
Banned
this is the stupidest thread ive ever read. who cares. the cues have similar inlays in a completely different pattern.
there isnt one part the either of these cues that is original. just inlays placed in unique places. different from eachother.
jamie and dave borrowed these inlays just the same as they may have borrowed them from you
both very nice cues tho
calling SG a ripoff isnt a great move. i have a feeling he will be doing some of the most amazing arrangements in the world!!
there isnt one part the either of these cues that is original. just inlays placed in unique places. different from eachother.
jamie and dave borrowed these inlays just the same as they may have borrowed them from you
both very nice cues tho
calling SG a ripoff isnt a great move. i have a feeling he will be doing some of the most amazing arrangements in the world!!