Nit/Locksmiths as Opposed to Smart/Shrewd Gamblers

[freddy the beard]

Nobody said they couldnt play

What about Red,Ervolino,Crane,Sigel,New York Blackie,Richie Ambrose,Brooklyn Jimmy,and Boston Shorty?These were all New Yorkers besides Shorty and a small part of the East Coast and the gamblers and high level of play it had to offer.

Jersey Red, once he hooked up with Dottie, his wife, she would only let him rob. Ervolino, big time gambler on horses or dice. New York Blackie, loved to rob. Richie Ambrose, the loosest of the bunch, but took many poundings in the 7-11. Brooklyn Jimmy, best hustler of all. Liked to get the 7,8 and 9 when he could give up the five. Shorty would bet it up. I hung out with everybody but Blackie and Crane. Crane didnt bet much. Sigel slowed down his gambling once his speed was exposed. Once those guys left NY, a $20 game was headline news.

the Beard

I have posted a vintage video of Boston Shorty and Wimpy in Johnston City 1967. It has never been on Youtube as far as I know. Http://johnstoncityvideos.blogspot.com/

 

[Johnnyt]

Jersey Red, once he hooked up with Dottie, his wife, she would only let him rob. Ervolino, big time gambler on horses or dice. New York Blackie, loved to rob. Richie Ambrose, the loosest of the bunch, but took many poundings in the 7-11. Brooklyn Jimmy, best hustler of all. Liked to get the 7,8 and 9 when he could give up the five. Shorty would bet it up. I hung out with everybody but Blackie and Crane. Crane didnt bet much. Sigel slowed down his gambling once his speed was exposed. Once those guys left NY, a $20 game was headline news.

the Beard

I have posted a vintage video of Boston Shorty and Wimpy in Johnston City 1967. It has never been on Youtube as far as I know. Http://johnstoncityvideos.blogspot.com/

The link didn't work for me. Was anyone able to see the video? Johnnyt

 

[yobagua]

Freddie come on. Danny Diliberto one of the all time great tournament and cash player is from Buffalo. Dont tell me he aint one of the finest road player we've ever seen. Your credibility goes out the window if you dont see that.

I dont count Mika as a New Yorker.

 

[Terry Ardeno]

Off the top of my head I am going to list a few players who were not nut-hunters: Wimpy, Bugs, CornBread, Denny Searcy, Keith, Cole, Harold Worst, Eddie Taylor, Richie Florence, Craig Stevens, Squirrel, Fats, Grady, Efren, Parica, Cliff, Richie Richeson, Ronnie Allen, Peter Rabbit, Danny Di, Truman, etc., etc. (and of course San Jose Dick). I could go on until I run out of ink. These were all great players and the common link was that they were all Gunfighters. If you look carefully you will see that there is a gaping hole in the demographics of that list. No East Coasters! They are the only collective group that I know of that became good players without providing much gamble. When I was hustling, if a NewYorker lost 3 barrels at anything it made the 10 Oclock news.
Lastly, Cardone's modesty is making me ill. Yeah, he matched up tough and had a great winning record, but he spent a career playing the best players in the world for BIG money. I know he encourages the super smart game-maker image, but if he can't be called a Gunfighter, then who can? For some reason he would rather be thought of as smart rather than courageous. Does anybody think a fair game is all you need to beat a champion? Against Bugs, Ronnie and CornBread, the "nuts" was usually not enough. Ronnie gave Mike Carella 9 to 7 in 1pkt., and Bugs gave Buddy Hall 10 to 8 playing banks. Those were probably the worst games of all time. They both won easily.

the Beard

This thread may be my personal favorite so far in 2008. So many great posts!

Freddy,
With ALL THE RESPECT in the world, I have to disagree with you on your list. Grady deserves very honorable mention in the gunfighters HOF. BUT, even though he played lots out of San Fran & Colorado Springs, I'm going to claim him as an "EAST COASTER" by proxy of having lived in Maine & SC. And Lassiter was from Elizabeth City, NC. The town was on the ATLANTIC OCEAN! Any further "east" and he'd be in Europe! DiLiberto was born in Buffalo, lived in AZ for a "little while" and then has been in Hallendale, Fla for YEARS. Sigel is also east coast, no matter what. So I say a recount may be in order there Beard!

Also, where's Allen Hopkins on your list? East coast gunfighter on mine.
Gambled big, still does. World Champion in assorted disciplines. A real good sense about him as well.

*******************************************************
Now, not to Freddy, but just for the record. If I was a professional roadman and could have ANYONE who EVER lived "manage" me on the road, i.e., select games, spots, match ups, etc, etc. I would pick Billy Incardona. I think he's a pool genius and as close as anyone can humanly get to being the total package when it comes to matching up.

As much as I love Grady, I think he had TOO much courage when matching up. He stayed with a bad game just to prove he could win over great odds and he wasn't afraid of anyone. "Tombstone courage" is not always a good asset when playing for lots of $. Grady should be in the "gunfighter's" HOF on just cajones alone! Not even counting his skill and savant pool mind.

DiLiberto & Richie Florence would also rank high on my "potential manager" list.

 

[cincyman]

This thread may be my personal favorite so far in 2008. So many great posts!

Freddy,
With ALL THE RESPECT in the world, I have to disagree with you on your list. Grady deserves very honorable mention in the gunfighters HOF. BUT, even though he played lots out of San Fran & Colorado Springs, I'm going to claim him as an "EAST COASTER" by proxy of having lived in Maine & SC. And Lassiter was from Elizabeth City, NC. The town was on the ATLANTIC OCEAN! Any further "east" and he'd be in Europe! DiLiberto was born in Buffalo, lived in AZ for a "little while" and then has been in Hallendale, Fla for YEARS. Sigel is also east coast, no matter what. So I say a recount may be in order there Beard!

Also, where's Allen Hopkins on your list? East coast gunfighter on mine.
Gambled big, still does. World Champion in assorted disciplines. A real good sense about him as well.

*******************************************************
Now, not to Freddy, but just for the record. If I was a professional roadman and could have ANYONE who EVER lived "manage" me on the road, i.e., select games, spots, match ups, etc, etc. I would pick Billy Incardona. I think he's a pool genius and as close as anyone can humanly get to being the total package when it comes to matching up.

As much as I love Grady, I think he had TOO much courage when matching up. He stayed with a bad game just to prove he could win over great odds and he wasn't afraid of anyone. "Tombstone courage" is not always a good asset when playing for lots of $. Grady should be in the "gunfighter's" HOF on just cajones alone! Not even counting his skill and savant pool mind.

DiLiberto & Richie Florence would also rank high on my "potential manager" list.

As much as it pains me (j/k) I have to agree with you and say i can think of no better manager than Billy Incardona. And i say this taking all things in consideration, street smarts, game making, gift of gab, knowledge, and everything else he does well as whole, is your best bet as a manager.

I also agree with you about Grady i think his for lack of a better word (balls and ego) sometimes got the best of him matching up and even with that he still did pretty good

 

[freddy the beard]

Works, far as I know

The link didn't work for me. Was anyone able to see the video? Johnnyt

I just checked it. Try it again. www.johnstoncityvideos.blogspot.com/

the Beard

 

[freddy the beard]

Exceptions, exceptions

Freddie come on. Danny Diliberto one of the all time great tournament and cash player is from Buffalo. Dont tell me he aint one of the finest road player we've ever seen. Your credibility goes out the window if you dont see that.

I dont count Mika as a New Yorker.

There are exceptions to every rule. Danny is certainly one of them. I dont intend to get him mad since he is coming to my house and cook for us this week. I was too general when I said East Coast. I really meant, New York, New Jersey, Connecticut and Mass. There was always great action in the Carolinas if you could duck the heist man.
When was the last time you heard a pool hustler say he was going on the road to hustle in NY and NJ? I went into McGirrs with Sugar Shack Johnny once, about 2 in the morning. I purposely started practicing on their 5x10 trap table hoping to get a bite. Finally, a guy asked me to play 1pkt. I agreed. He said "$10 a game?" I agreed again. He laughed and said "Fuggidaboudit," and walked away. No one else approached. One other time I was in Chelsea Billiards watching these 2 guys run out every shot playing 9 ball. I had bankroll and I felt like playing, so I asked them if either one wanted to play some 9ball. I said 9 ball because I knew if I said 1pkt or Bank that would qualify for an automatic rejection. They both gave me the same kind of laugh that I got in McGirrs 20 years earlier.

Terry Ardeno, you asked me to include Grady as an East Coast Gambler, why dont you ask him what he thinks about being called that?

the Beard

 

[Terry Ardeno]

As much as it pains me (j/k) I have to agree with you and say i can think of no better manager than Billy Incardona. And i say this taking all things in consideration, street smarts, game making, gift of gab, knowledge, and everything else he does well as whole, is your best bet as a manager.

I also agree with you about Grady i think his for lack of a better word (balls and ego) sometimes got the best of him matching up and even with that he still did pretty good

Thank you Cincy.
I also have a lot of respect for your knowledge of the players.

But the best part of your post was the very first sentence, especially the j/k! There can NEVER be enough good natured woffin'! The j/k cleaned my heart. Great shot my friend!
Thank you....

 

[Terry Ardeno]

Terry Ardeno, you asked me to include Grady as an East Coast Gambler, why dont you ask him what he thinks about being called that?

the Beard

Freddy,
Even seeing you type those 3 words in succession "EAST-COAST-GAMBLER" was worth your reply! I can almost see the disdain dripping from your lips! You probably hated typing that more than anything else you did this month!
But, it does look good....

"EAST COAST GAMBLER"

And NO! There's NO WAY I'm going to ask the Professor which coast he wants to be considered a part of.

I tried to sneak him past that mind of yours, but I under-estimated you by about 3 balls! Good catch Fred!

Now, moving on. What do you consider Allen Hopkins, Larry Lisciotti and Jimmy Fusco?

I think you have to say it again Fred...."EAST COAST GAMBLER'S"

 

[Russ Chewning]

Freddy,

I've often been curious. What EXACTLY do you think is the reason for the players in the New York City area being so nitty? (In general) I mean, we've all heard the stories, but not the WHY. What is your opinion on this?

Is it their natural tendency from living in huge, overcrowded cities to be paranoid about anyone they don't know, which causes them to pass up easy money?

Is it the idea that it is so hard to get out with the money, that only the most hardened and experienced road dogs come through NYC, therefore, locals (rightly?) assume that if you are a road player coming through NYC, that you are the triple nuts?

Or, do you think it is just the extremely high cost of living, that does not allow them to gamble as they would like?

Or..Some combination of all of the above?

Russ

 

[yobagua]

Terry I think you would have to include Mizerak to that list. He liked to bet it up. I would have loved to have those 5K matches he had with Diliberto in the 70's on tape.

Russ in NY its not unheard of to drop $500 for a meal for 2 in the city. Tickets to see a play are $100-$150. The people that have money to gamble dont mess with pool they do it big with horses and casinos etc. Its tough living out there. Every one I know has a job and a side "thing". To get by is rough. Every dollar counts for the normal people. But there is action there but tough action. People have heard every kind of con you could think of. No one gives up anything there without a fight to the death. You could say there are no suckers there either. Since you have to be street smart to survive that city. And theres big money away from pool not in it. I know guys out there who bet a quarter of a million on the weekend during football season. They laugh at pool bets.

 

[Terry Ardeno]

Terry I think you would have to include Mizerak to that list. He liked to bet it up. I would have loved to have those 5K matches he had with Diliberto in the 70's on tape.

I forgot about the Miz. He stacks up well with the East Coast team.

Most everybody here knows how much I love the Beard. He knows me enough to know when I'm messing a little with him. But if anyone knows Freddy, he's very territorial and also, rightly proud of the battle scars given & received during various match ups. Most everybody also knows that there really were some "monsters in the midwest". And Freddy left off guys like Varner , Earl Heisler, Earl Schriver, Rags Fitzpatrick & Gary Spaeth, who I'm certain he would have included had he remembered them.

My point though is that the east coast is well represented with fierce money players....Lassiter, Sigel, Strickland, Hopkins, Incardona, Rempe, Lisciotti, Jersey Red, Jimmy Fusco, John Schmidt, Johnny Ervolino, Boston Shorty, Weenie Beanie, Johnny Lineen, Johnny Vives, Dennis Hatch, Mizerak, Marvin Henderson, Michael Coltrain, Jose Garcia, Pete Fusco, Jimmy Marino, Jack Colavita, Tony Ellin, Strawberry Brooks, Ed Kelly, Danny Basavich, MikeLeBron, Danny Barouty, George SanSouci, Frankie Hernandez, Joey Korsiak, Ryan McCreesh, DiLiberto, etc.
And I count East Coast as New York, Pennsylvania and south to the gulf.

The midwest would be Ohio to say Colorado and North Dakota to Texas. Everything left of all that is west coast.
Each region has it's great players and champions.

Personally, I think a very strong case can be made that the midwest players were even stronger than the murderer's row of the west coast.

My only point is that the east coast players are no pansies or easy push-overs.

One thing for sure, great banter in this thread!

 

[philw]

I've often been referred to as a nut hunter,and that's fairly accurate. But if you take a fair look at life in general,don't we all look for the nuts? If you answered yes your telling the truth,if your answer is no,your rent is probably late.We as individuals have a certain uniqueness in the way we think,that's what makes us individuals and unpredictable at times.I really don't know how to explain why some people can figure out things better than others,maybe they listened better when they were young or maybe their just blessed with the ability to be resourceful.I guess that's my forte. I've always had a clever awareness in situations and how to negotiate to gain an advantage.I used that atribute just as a shrewd business person would to gain the advantage in their world. But in my world i'm often referred to as a nut hunter and that's really not the case.Oh I do understand that people that take risk and show more gamble are more popular and admired more than a shrewd person,but I guess that's life.Any ways lets get back to the topic and that is a person that has the ability to cleverly think things out and uses it to their advantage should be respected as much or more than the reckless gambler. IMO And I really feel that I will take a lot of heat from this post,but I can deal with it,especially since I have more gamble than sense nowadays And for those of you that think that i'm being cagey with that statement,well that's your loss.

A lot of heat? Heck no I think you've outlined a part of human nature and have done so in an honest and articulate way. If there are people who don't think like this what can we call them. I think you told us what a pool hustler thinks when matching up and I think 75% or more of the people that play this game would love to be referred to as a pool hustler.
Bill, I once asked you if it was important to gamble at pool in order to improve one's game and you told me you thought it was very important.
I agree with this notion. If there is anyone that disagrees please tell me your reasons. Thanks, Philw

 

[philw]

I just checked it. Try it again. www.johnstoncityvideos.blogspot.com/

the Beard[/QUOTE
Thanks Fred, That was an excellent piece of nostalgia that I've never seen before and how about that Jim "The Minnow" McKay? Really enjoyed it
thanks for sharing. Philw

 

[frankwhite]

This thread may be my personal favorite so far in 2008. So many great posts!

Freddy,
With ALL THE RESPECT in the world, I have to disagree with you on your list. Grady deserves very honorable mention in the gunfighters HOF. BUT, even though he played lots out of San Fran & Colorado Springs, I'm going to claim him as an "EAST COASTER" by proxy of having lived in Maine & SC. And Lassiter was from Elizabeth City, NC. The town was on the ATLANTIC OCEAN! Any further "east" and he'd be in Europe! DiLiberto was born in Buffalo, lived in AZ for a "little while" and then has been in Hallendale, Fla for YEARS. Sigel is also east coast, no matter what. So I say a recount may be in order there Beard!

Also, where's Allen Hopkins on your list? East coast gunfighter on mine.
Gambled big, still does. World Champion in assorted disciplines. A real good sense about him as well.

*******************************************************
Now, not to Freddy, but just for the record. If I was a professional roadman and could have ANYONE who EVER lived "manage" me on the road, i.e., select games, spots, match ups, etc, etc. I would pick Billy Incardona. I think he's a pool genius and as close as anyone can humanly get to being the total package when it comes to matching up.

As much as I love Grady, I think he had TOO much courage when matching up. He stayed with a bad game just to prove he could win over great odds and he wasn't afraid of anyone. "Tombstone courage" is not always a good asset when playing for lots of $. Grady should be in the "gunfighter's" HOF on just cajones alone! Not even counting his skill and savant pool mind.

DiLiberto & Richie Florence would also rank high on my "potential manager" list.

Allen was born in Newark,NJ.....Could always find Hoppy in Ellizebeth,NJ.

 

[Johnnyt]

I agree that you need to gamble to get near the top in pool. But you can do this smart. If there is no action for you in a roon and none for a pro or shortstop, match up for cheap sets with him or her. Most of the time you'll loose but you won't loose the homestead and you won't blow your cover. Johnnyt

 

[Terry Ardeno]

Allen was born in Newark,NJ.....Could always find Hoppy in Ellizebeth,NJ.

Frank,
I'm pretty certain Hopkins was born in Elizabeth, NJ, raised in Cranford, NJ but always shot out of Elizabeth, NJ.

He's a great all around player & guy, and I was asking Freddy where he (Hopkins) was on his list of east coast gamblers.

I was lobbying for Allen to be included in the gunfighter's HOF.

 

[Fast Lenny]

I forgot about the Miz. He stacks up well with the East Coast team.

Most everybody here knows how much I love the Beard. He knows me enough to know when I'm messing a little with him. But if anyone knows Freddy, he's very territorial and also, rightly proud of the battle scars given & received during various match ups. Most everybody also knows that there really were some "monsters in the midwest". And Freddy left off guys like Varner , Earl Heisler, Earl Schriver, Rags Fitzpatrick & Gary Spaeth, who I'm certain he would have included had he remembered them.

My point though is that the east coast is well represented with fierce money players....Lassiter, Sigel, Strickland, Hopkins, Incardona, Rempe, Lisciotti, Jersey Red, Jimmy Fusco, John Schmidt, Johnny Ervolino, Boston Shorty, Weenie Beanie, Johnny Lineen, Johnny Vives, Dennis Hatch, Mizerak, Marvin Henderson, Michael Coltrain, Jose Garcia, Pete Fusco, Jimmy Marino, Jack Colavita, Tony Ellin, Strawberry Brooks, Ed Kelly, Danny Basavich, MikeLeBron, Danny Barouty, George SanSouci, Frankie Hernandez, Joey Korsiak, Ryan McCreesh, DiLiberto, etc.
And I count East Coast as New York, Pennsylvania and south to the gulf.

The midwest would be Ohio to say Colorado and North Dakota to Texas. Everything left of all that is west coast.
Each region has it's great players and champions.

Personally, I think a very strong case can be made that the midwest players were even stronger than the murderer's row of the west coast.

My only point is that the east coast players are no pansies or easy push-overs.

One thing for sure, great banter in this thread!

Dont forget Irving Crane on that list,he used to gamble it up and was even at JC.He gambled with Cisero too and Cisero couldnt win for the cash again Irving.

 

[Fast Lenny]

Freddy,

I've often been curious. What EXACTLY do you think is the reason for the players in the New York City area being so nitty? (In general) I mean, we've all heard the stories, but not the WHY. What is your opinion on this?

Is it their natural tendency from living in huge, overcrowded cities to be paranoid about anyone they don't know, which causes them to pass up easy money?

Is it the idea that it is so hard to get out with the money, that only the most hardened and experienced road dogs come through NYC, therefore, locals (rightly?) assume that if you are a road player coming through NYC, that you are the triple nuts?

Or, do you think it is just the extremely high cost of living, that does not allow them to gamble as they would like?

Or..Some combination of all of the above?

Russ

Hey Russ,a funny story from NY was Mike Immonen.My friend goes into the room seeing him practicing and ask if he wants to play some cheap $100 sets,Mika said no.After watching my friend for awhile he figures he is going to be winner and takes the bet,he won $300 off my buddy.When he told me the story I was in disbelief that a World Champion player would decline a $100 challenge.

 

[frankwhite]

Frank,
I'm pretty certain Hopkins was born in Elizabeth, NJ, raised in Cranford, NJ but always shot out of Elizabeth, NJ.

He's a great all around player & guy, and I was asking Freddy where he (Hopkins) was on his list of east coast gamblers.

I was lobbying for Allen to be included in the gunfighter's HOF.

I am pretty tight w/ Allen. I also thought it was Elizabeth. I believe but I could be wrong he had told me born in Newark. I was suprised, maybe we had toooo much to drink, we were at the bar...LOL LOL LOL LOL

And yes Terry, Crandford is quite correct.....