no backpause= more english
- Thread starter Slh
- Start date
Bob, thanks a lot for noting your own experience!
I know the pause should be there but one of my fellow local pros keeps telling me my pause is too short and therefore I miss the shots I'm supposed to make. But when I tried to switch it became only worse, every second time I'm thinking about exaggerating the backswing pause I screwed the shot. Now when I read your line I think I'm in the same boat.
Btw when I watched Stan Shuffett shooting I thought that's amazing how good he shoots with such a sloppy stroke :grin-square: His pause is almost non-existent and his stroke is far from smooth. Nothing takes from his skill and achievements of course.
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The guy was right and wrong.
His analogy about jumping was actually kind of a good one. Imagine a vertical leap test, like in the NFL combine. Picture how they do it; there's a crouching down and then an explosion upwards. Now imagine they pause for a full second (rather than an instantaneous change of direction) at the bottom of the crouch. Would it affect the results? The answer is yes. The pause decreases the leap. Try it yourself.
The reason why is not about the physics of motion, it's about the biomechanics of muscles. While you're crouching down you have downward momentum. As you approach the bottom of the crouch your leg muscles bring you to a momentary stop. This is done with eccentric contraction (the part where you're still moving downward but your leg muscles are starting to oppose this motion), followed by isometric contraction (the brief pause), followed by concentric contraction (the part where your muscles propel you upward).
If you you pause at the bottom, your downward momentum ceases. Your leg muscles are given a break and the amount of load during the isometric contraction is only equal to your weight (no extra force to counteract downward momentum). If you don't pause, then the load on the muscle is greater; at the bottom of the crouch the load consists of your weight and also the continuous effort of converting your downward momentum to upward momentum.
Now what you need to know about muscles is that load affects force output. When you tell your leg muscles to push as hard as they can, it feels like they'll output about the same force regardless of how much weight they're pushing, but in fact the more weight they're pushing the harder you'll be able to make them push. So in the scenario without the pause, the increased load of momentum during the isometric contraction at the bottom of the crouch will lead to a significantly more forceful contraction and a significantly higher jump.
So relating that to your pool stroke, your bicep will be able to push the cue forward harder (and thus faster) if you don't pause.
But does it matter? How often are you asking your bicep to contract as hard as it can during your pool stroke? Hopefully only on your break, if even then. Also the amount of english you get depends as much on tip placement as stroke speed, so focusing on precision will probably yield much greater results. And as others have said, you're going to be more effective with the stroke you're comfortable with; switching between pause and no-pause or vice versa will probably always do more harm than good. So that's why he's wrong.
-Andrew
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I would suggest that if YOU can adopt a conscious no pause stroke that you do so. By that I mean at the end of the back stroke. Pausing at the cue ball as Mr. Naji said can be good but agiain not always the best thing to do. You want to get your consciousness out of the picture as much as possible. That being said it does not mean that you can not pause on some shots. Every shot is not the same & hence does not require the same stroke. Don't get bogged down. Just play & you will develope what is best for YOU.
Why do you think it is BS? Who told you that & why?
There are many reasons why some people say what they say. Pool is not just Geometry & Physics. There are the human BOImechanical aspests as well. Almost every golfer & baseball player & tennis player have a move that initiates the final swing. A forward press in golf or a coil & a rotatry roll of the bat, etc. Very few have been successful in sports starting from a perfectly still set position. Is movement required or does it enhance the physics? Perhaps not. Does it enhance the biomechanics which can affect the physics? You decide for yourself. Don't be told. Your friend says one thing & you apparently have info to the contrary. Try them both & decide for yourself.
Regards,
Why do you think it is BS? Who told you that & why?
There are many reasons why some people say what they say. Pool is not just Geometry & Physics. There are the human BOImechanical aspests as well. Almost every golfer & baseball player & tennis player have a move that initiates the final swing. A forward press in golf or a coil & a rotatry roll of the bat, etc. Very few have been successful in sports starting from a perfectly still set position. Is movement required or does it enhance the physics? Perhaps not. Does it enhance the biomechanics which can affect the physics? You decide for yourself. Don't be told. Your friend says one thing & you apparently have info to the contrary. Try them both & decide for yourself.
Regards,
Love this and second it!
My feeling is that a pause allows you to isolate the backstroke from the forward stroke, which may lead to a straighter forward stroke and potentially improved cueing accuracy. That definitely favors the snooker sharpshooters.
However, CB action is very dependent upon velocity as well as cue tip placement. After all, there are very tight limits within which you can strike the ball without miscueing. Velocity is so not limited.
I feel that many folks can get a more relaxed stroke and achieve higher cue velocity by using a smooth transition between the two strokes rather than a pronounced pause. I know this is true for me, especially in other activities besides pool that use somewhat similar mechanics.
However, CB action is very dependent upon velocity as well as cue tip placement. After all, there are very tight limits within which you can strike the ball without miscueing. Velocity is so not limited.
I feel that many folks can get a more relaxed stroke and achieve higher cue velocity by using a smooth transition between the two strokes rather than a pronounced pause. I know this is true for me, especially in other activities besides pool that use somewhat similar mechanics.
Perfect! Thank you.:wink:
His current competence is based more on learning from hundreds and thousands of mistakes. His skill is more a testament to his intellectual analysis of various adjustments to his fundamentals. His learning process came up with effective solutions.
I'm a big fan of listening to how excellent players explain their abilities. But there is no need to wholeheartedly apply his efforts. Instead, set up some tests on your practice table.
For example,
1. Set up a shot for a long draw shot.
2. Shoot 10 shots using your standard draw routine to get the maximum. Mark the general results (xx Diamonds).
3. Shoot the same 10 shots with the back stop built into the routine. Mark the general results.
The routine you use is the one that gets the most D's.
If you make the change for a draw shot, then you have to redial your speeds for intentional results. It won't take long, but your back brain and muscle memory needs to know the new parameters.
When making any change to your fundamentals, do so one at a time, and only when the new routine is standardized. This may limit new adjustments to once every four months.
I'm a big fan of listening to how excellent players explain their abilities. But there is no need to wholeheartedly apply his efforts. Instead, set up some tests on your practice table.
For example,
1. Set up a shot for a long draw shot.
2. Shoot 10 shots using your standard draw routine to get the maximum. Mark the general results (xx Diamonds).
3. Shoot the same 10 shots with the back stop built into the routine. Mark the general results.
The routine you use is the one that gets the most D's.
If you make the change for a draw shot, then you have to redial your speeds for intentional results. It won't take long, but your back brain and muscle memory needs to know the new parameters.
When making any change to your fundamentals, do so one at a time, and only when the new routine is standardized. This may limit new adjustments to once every four months.
I think Allison Fisher likes the "pause" pretty well.
Different strokes for different folks. (literally for once)
Yes, that is the intended end result however there are better techniques for achieving this. The pause allows the cue to transition from back to forward more smoothly and also affords the eyes time to shift from CB to OB.
This shift is what helps accuracy on the CB.
Pause, no pause, artificial pause
When I am shooting well the entire inning at the table is one continuous motion. Adding an artificial pause would indeed derail the flow of my game with negative results. Contrary to popular opinion it is very possible to reverse directions without a pause. It is called a curve or arc and many of the best in the world that come from some little island somewhere use this stroke.
A deliberate and extended pause can be an excellent teaching tool when building a stroke. However I strongly agree an extended pause isolates the final forward stroke from the preshot routine. Might as well have got down on line and poked the stick ahead without all the practice strokes. Reminds me of a basketball player at the foul line carefully dribbling the ball a few times, holding it just under his line of sight, carefully aligning everything, and taking a granny shot! The extended pause isn't quite as bad but almost. You have the stroke speed down from your practice strokes, you have your muscles moving on the perfect track, then you shut all of this down and take a poke.
Sometimes there is a natural noticeable pause at the back of my stroke when I am shooting a long soft shot that requires absolute precision. Seems to work in this case and I don't try to fight what my body wants to do. There are and have been quite a few great players with unconventional strokes. I wouldn't bother telling someone that has just put an eight pack on me that he is doing it wrong!
Hu
When I am shooting well the entire inning at the table is one continuous motion. Adding an artificial pause would indeed derail the flow of my game with negative results. Contrary to popular opinion it is very possible to reverse directions without a pause. It is called a curve or arc and many of the best in the world that come from some little island somewhere use this stroke.
A deliberate and extended pause can be an excellent teaching tool when building a stroke. However I strongly agree an extended pause isolates the final forward stroke from the preshot routine. Might as well have got down on line and poked the stick ahead without all the practice strokes. Reminds me of a basketball player at the foul line carefully dribbling the ball a few times, holding it just under his line of sight, carefully aligning everything, and taking a granny shot! The extended pause isn't quite as bad but almost. You have the stroke speed down from your practice strokes, you have your muscles moving on the perfect track, then you shut all of this down and take a poke.
Sometimes there is a natural noticeable pause at the back of my stroke when I am shooting a long soft shot that requires absolute precision. Seems to work in this case and I don't try to fight what my body wants to do. There are and have been quite a few great players with unconventional strokes. I wouldn't bother telling someone that has just put an eight pack on me that he is doing it wrong!
Hu
I compare a baseball pitchers actions from beginning to end Very similar to the proper motions of cue movement. The transitional time/pause or whatever you prefer to label it, happens when the pitcher starts the forward movement of the throwing arm to deliver the pitch. The transitional time period when the baseball is in neither the forward or backward moition is ''that'' pitchers pause. There's no right, or wrong. If ya ever get a chance, watch Ciscero Murphys swing mechanics (deceased), his pause is VERY pronounced, on another note related to swing mechanics, and I don't recommend copying his motions, is Allen Hokins, a great player still.
The run-and-jump analogy is flawed... With run'n'jump you're building speed by moving in the same direction as the jump.
With a backswing that turns into a forward swing, the backswing's momentum is in the wrong direction.
So it doesn't help you build speed (or spin).
Still, there may be something to it. There's something called "eccentric contraction" which colin colenso explains well in his
breaking video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=xW1tsONEI_U#t=225s
It could be that by going back and then going forward, certain muscles are adding a little extra force vs. doing it from a pause.
Extra force can translate into extra spin.
I've played lots with and without the pause, for a long time I was absolutely convinced I did not
get the same sidespin action on the cue ball when I did the shot with a pause.
And I felt there was no way to get power draw with the pause.
For the sidespin, I eventually figured out that in my fluid stroke, I was steering a little,
which is the kind of thing a pause makes painfully obvious.
Like if I wanted to do a rail cut with low right, to bring the cue ball back down the table as much as possible,
I would swing the tip a little to the right at the end... adding an extra half tip of sidespin to help it spin downhill.
Once I realized this, and started aiming with the extra half tip and then just shooting with a pause,
I got that extra spin action.
For long draw though, I still have trouble pausing and getting the cue ball to move as much.
Might be that eccentric contraction thing.
With a backswing that turns into a forward swing, the backswing's momentum is in the wrong direction.
So it doesn't help you build speed (or spin).
Still, there may be something to it. There's something called "eccentric contraction" which colin colenso explains well in his
breaking video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=xW1tsONEI_U#t=225s
It could be that by going back and then going forward, certain muscles are adding a little extra force vs. doing it from a pause.
Extra force can translate into extra spin.
I've played lots with and without the pause, for a long time I was absolutely convinced I did not
get the same sidespin action on the cue ball when I did the shot with a pause.
And I felt there was no way to get power draw with the pause.
For the sidespin, I eventually figured out that in my fluid stroke, I was steering a little,
which is the kind of thing a pause makes painfully obvious.
Like if I wanted to do a rail cut with low right, to bring the cue ball back down the table as much as possible,
I would swing the tip a little to the right at the end... adding an extra half tip of sidespin to help it spin downhill.
Once I realized this, and started aiming with the extra half tip and then just shooting with a pause,
I got that extra spin action.
For long draw though, I still have trouble pausing and getting the cue ball to move as much.
Might be that eccentric contraction thing.
Me personally, when I have doubts about fundamental issues (grip, stance, bridge, pause, etc.), I watch a lot of video of professionals playing. Do you know what I always find? I find that almost all of the very BEST players that play the game all incorporate DIFFERENT styles of fundamentals into their games, and ALL with great success. As far as the stroke "pause" goes, I've seen the gamut of no pause at all to the very long and drawn-out pause (i.e. Allison Fisher), and who is to say which of these extremely successful pros is doing it the right or wrong way?
I say, do it the way that works best for you.
With that said, I used to not pause at all (couldn't tell my final practice stroke from my forward stroke). Then, after attending Cue Tech pool school, I incorporated a pause at the back of my last practice stroke (SPF). That worked great for a couple of years, but now I've gravitated to pausing at the cueball and then making my final back and forward stroke, and this is working better for me now. My point is, use what works best for you and if it starts to become an issue of self-doubt, try it another way and see if it helps your game. It did for me.
Maniac
I say, do it the way that works best for you.
With that said, I used to not pause at all (couldn't tell my final practice stroke from my forward stroke). Then, after attending Cue Tech pool school, I incorporated a pause at the back of my last practice stroke (SPF). That worked great for a couple of years, but now I've gravitated to pausing at the cueball and then making my final back and forward stroke, and this is working better for me now. My point is, use what works best for you and if it starts to become an issue of self-doubt, try it another way and see if it helps your game. It did for me.
Maniac
Is there a reason why you quoted me on this ? Seems like both halves of your comment are unrelated to each other and neither are related to mine.
