Nothing New In Men's Pro Pool For Years

Johnnyt

Burn all jump cues
Silver Member
I've have followed pool tournaments and the players for the last 6 years on here (AZ) and other forums. I've come to the conclusion that pool is what it is now, is what it has been for years, and will never be anything else but a game. There might be some hope for amateur pool but pro pool is stuck in time. When the few remaining sponsors get tired of the chopping, dumping, and all the other BS that goes on at the top level of men's pro pool they will disassociate themselves with it and only fund amateur events. Johnnyt
 
I've have followed pool tournaments and the players for the last 6 years on here (AZ) and other forums. I've come to the conclusion that pool is what it is now, is what it has been for years, and will never be anything else but a game. There might be some hope for amateur pool but pro pool is stuck in time. When the few remaining sponsors get tired of the chopping, dumping, and all the other BS that goes on at the top level of men's pro pool they will disassociate themselves with it and only fund amateur events. Johnnyt

I think that's a little pessimistic. But only by a little given the rut US pool's been stuck in for so long. However, I could see a few things happen to make a big positive difference in the landscape.

1) a young, charismatic phenom. A 16 year old "Tiger" that stomps world beaters without cracking a sweat, that is 100% dedicated to a long career in just pool.

2) a passionate promoter/tour that brings a "must attend, must aspire to be on" mentality. One that brings more money, class and integrity to appeal to a wider audience while providing a measurable return to advertizers.

3) The aforementioned "entity" could evolve into a consolidation of quality individuals that could better govern and represent American pool interests.
 
I do not believe it is the pro players why men's pool has one tire stuck in the sand.

Au contraire, it is the American pool culture who continues to show little to no respect for professional caliber of play, calling professional players jobless bums.

I'm content today with professional pool where it's at. I don't believe that the American culture deserves to have professional pool.

Let the American pool culture eat cake in Philippines and Asian-Pacific Islander countries with the Europeans. Go Philippines. Go Korea. Go Europe. Go Taiwan. Meanwhile, I got to enjoy American pool when it shined brightly.

Let's keep kicking 'em while they're down. Pretty soon, there won't be anything to kick anymore. That's the ticket! :smile:
 
it might be fairer to say "US mens pool" as pool elsewhere in the world seems to be doing very well as jam points out. maybe mens pool is where the male players want it to be? i'm just throwing that out there. ususally when folks dont like something they actively work to change it. dont really see that amonst the pros. there was so much talk about forming a players union or some other type of strong player association after the ipt debacle, but yet nothing happened.

brian
 
Well, here's how I see it. The entertainment aspect is the thing lacking in pool.

When I used to play at all the tournaments, there'd be 800 people watching my game, and there'd be 30 people watching other games. Why is that? It's because people like entertainment as well as seeing good pool.

There's a couple people that might disagree. There's always going to be that couple of knockers, but you got them anywhere you go, if you catch my drift.

As far as the IPT and Kevin Trudeau goes, I think it was the best stepping stone to market pool in a positive way. He's the first guy that came out of the woodwork, knowing he would probably lose money from the start, and ended up losing millions, only to get bashed and slammed from every angle.

All the robots with no personality are killing the game, and believe me, I hate to say it, but about 80 percent of the pool players today on the circuit with their garbage pail personalities won't do anything to help. If they do anything at all, it's all for themselves. If they all tried to unite with one another and work together, not talk bad about each other behind people's back, backstab this player, backstab that player, they might have a chance. Until they recognize that, pool is what it is today.
 
Well, here's how I see it. The entertainment aspect is the thing lacking in pool.

When I used to play at all the tournaments, there'd be 800 people watching my game, and there'd be 30 people watching other games. Why is that? It's because people like entertainment as well as seeing good pool.

There's a couple people that might disagree. There's always going to be that couple of knockers, but you got them anywhere you go, if you catch my drift.

As far as the IPT and Kevin Trudeau goes, I think it was the best stepping stone to market pool in a positive way. He's the first guy that came out of the woodwork, knowing he would probably lose money from the start, and ended up losing millions, only to get bashed and slammed from every angle.

All the robots with no personality are killing the game, and believe me, I hate to say it, but about 80 percent of the pool players today on the circuit with their garbage pail personalities won't do anything to help. If they do anything at all, it's all for themselves. If they all tried to unite with one another and work together, not talk bad about each other behind people's back, backstab this player, backstab that player, they might have a chance. Until they recognize that, pool is what it is today.

I can't argue with any of what you said above. You have also done your part in showing that entertainment is one of the keys to getting pool mainstream. But what I said starting this thread is also true and has kept pool down. Glad you're doing well and finally got a good roll with the windfall coming your way soon. Johnnyt
 
I think that's a little pessimistic.

No, it is simply honest.

The reality is that this game at the professional level has gone nowhere not in the last 6 years, but in the last 20 years. We have fewer events then the past and when inflation is taken into account (as it must be) the money in each event is normally lower as well.

Professional pool's only saving grace is the increase in popularity in Asia and Europe, which managed to offset the plummet in popularity the sport has seen in America where the sport as a whole MUST expand and show positive growth, which is the opposite of what it is doing right now.

The amature game has stayed relatively stable. I have been going to the amature events in Vegas for almost 2 decades now and the tournaments are not a whole lot bigger then they were in the past. We have WAY better tables in the BCA nationals now due to Diamond which is the only positive change I have seen in my entire time in this game, which spans back to Johnny Archer being a kid winning his first professional event. The VNEA in Vegas on the other hand has been crushed in that same amount of time, their popularity and attendence is a small fraction of what it once was.

I have made countless posts on how things could be done to improve the outlook of the sport and possibly set it off on a positive trend of popularity and participation. Not going to bother writing that stuff here. Nothing is being done and the sport is in stasis and when you are not growing while the whole world grows around you then you are eventually going to disapear under the mass of all that other stuff.

Pool is a small tree not growing while the whole forest grows around it, eventually pool will die from a lack of light as it dies under the mass of the other trees that grow bigger and bigger all around it. Not alot of people seem to be noticing though or they don't care enough to put a real effort into changing that course of events.

This sport as a whole is on the same path as the Riviera, and at this point the amature level of the sport is virtually the ONLY source of fans and support the sport has for the industry. Which makes sense, since the amature level is in stasis as I mentioned above so is the support for the professional level of pool and thus professional pool itself is going nowhere.

1) a young, charismatic phenom. A 16 year old "Tiger" that stomps world beaters without cracking a sweat, that is 100% dedicated to a long career in just pool.

That happend, did you miss it?

BTW, Kieth's post is spot on as well. Snooker has managed to struggle on for years because of Alex the Hurricane Higgins and Ronnie O'Sullivan type of players. Players that show personality and fire and yeah at times are even controversial. If you take those guys out and have the same faceless guys with no personality all wearing the same vest-suit playing the exact same style you can kiss that sport goodbye, and that sport is bloody well close to that atm, they are litterly living on the health and hopes of a single top player atm who manages to keep people interested. Yes a guy like Hendry can help a sport as well, each McEnroe needs their Conners to compete against and show the contrast in style and approach. That is why a guy like John Daly looks so entertaining, he is a bright light of contrast and entertainment in a sea of otherwise fairly bland players. Even Tiger has shown a vast amount more fire and aggresion on the course then people have previously shown, swearing and throwing clubs is not unheard of from him, but that emotion is prefferable to a bland robot (stealing Kieth's word, it fits) playing the game.

But all of that is pointless as well if the sport does not get more then the 10,000 people who actually give a shit atm. We could have the most interesting lineup of players on the planet, this sport actually DOES have alot of characters to market much like Poker does, but atm we have no outlet to actually market the sport and get people to notice.
 
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I've have followed pool tournaments and the players for the last 6 years on here (AZ) and other forums. I've come to the conclusion that pool is what it is now, is what it has been for years, and will never be anything else but a game. There might be some hope for amateur pool but pro pool is stuck in time. When the few remaining sponsors get tired of the chopping, dumping, and all the other BS that goes on at the top level of men's pro pool they will disassociate themselves with it and only fund amateur events. Johnnyt

Seems to me a lot of people glorify all the hustling and deceiving that goes on in the gambling world, but when the same kind of behavior goes on in pro matches they complain how bad it is for pro pool. Is it okay to take advantage of some guy in a your local room who doesn't understand the game but wrong for two pros to make a deal?
You can't have it both ways it either sucks all the time or is cool all the time. I say it sucks all the time and degrades the game of pool.
BTW, when I say you I don't mean "you" personally, I mean pool players in general.
 
Well, here's how I see it. The entertainment aspect is the thing lacking in pool.

When I used to play at all the tournaments, there'd be 800 people watching my game, and there'd be 30 people watching other games. Why is that? It's because people like entertainment as well as seeing good pool.

There's a couple people that might disagree. There's always going to be that couple of knockers, but you got them anywhere you go, if you catch my drift.

As far as the IPT and Kevin Trudeau goes, I think it was the best stepping stone to market pool in a positive way. He's the first guy that came out of the woodwork, knowing he would probably lose money from the start, and ended up losing millions, only to get bashed and slammed from every angle.

All the robots with no personality are killing the game, and believe me, I hate to say it, but about 80 percent of the pool players today on the circuit with their garbage pail personalities won't do anything to help. If they do anything at all, it's all for themselves. If they all tried to unite with one another and work together, not talk bad about each other behind people's back, backstab this player, backstab that player, they might have a chance. Until they recognize that, pool is what it is today.


extermely true keith, no one wants to be yawned to death. Take earl for example....jeez i know people hate him or whatever, but at least he adds some fire, the euros hate him but show up to watch so do the americans. Its kinda like the Howard stern thing, the ones who hated him listened longer than the ones who liked him.

Wether you like or dislike a player, at least that player provokes an emotional response from the viewers.

I love getting with the crowd when i play in a tournament it just makes the experience for the player and them so much better, when i play I always think of this quote by steve prefontain but I'm going to edit it to apply directly to pool.


Some people create with words or with music or with a brush and paints. I like to make something beautiful when I play. I like to make people stop and say, 'I've never seen anyone shoot like that before.' It's more than just a game, it's a style. It's doing something better than anyone else. It's being creative.

Grey Ghost
 
You might not have meant me but that was me up to a certain point. What I very rarely did was hustle someone in a poolroom that I was much better than w/o giving them a fair spot. I wasn't a big tournament player but when I did play in them I played to win for myself and never dumped a game or took a game from someone dumping for me that I know of. One of the reasons I played and gambled on my own dime was so I didn't have to worry about someone else's money that put it and their faith in me.

It was a very different story in bars. I was a good BB player for years and would not shy away from taking someone's money that I knew didn't have a chance. That was my part time job and sometimes my full time job for years. Over the years it helped me drive nice cars and bikes, own almost 200 Racing Greyhounds, and party every night with the best of them.

I did go off sometimes when I'd make a good score that I really didn't earn. I've played Allen Hopkins, Steve Cook, Mike Segal, Buddy Hall, C M Lee, to name a few that I've played over the years with a spot. So I didn't ALWAYS have to have the nuts. Johnnyt
 
When Pool met PC, that was the end. Today, more people would concentrate on shutting up Entertainers like Keith McCready than sitting back and enjoying the show.
 
Major sport difference

The major difference between pool and all other sports is the people in charge. nfl, mlb, nba,NASCAR, golf, nhl all have a governing body to set the rules for play and conduct that is expected of all players. I have read countless forums on this site that talk about things like: soft breaks, breaking from the box, safety play, actions of Earl Strickland, the way players rack or rack your own. All tournaments seem to have different rules how can you ever say who the best is. IMO pool needs "ONE" organization to govern pool and to set forth a marketing plan to lure sponsership to OUR great sport.

Chad
 
Well, here's how I see it. The entertainment aspect is the thing lacking in pool.

When I used to play at all the tournaments, there'd be 800 people watching my game, and there'd be 30 people watching other games. Why is that? It's because people like entertainment as well as seeing good pool.

There's a couple people that might disagree. There's always going to be that couple of knockers, but you got them anywhere you go, if you catch my drift.

As far as the IPT and Kevin Trudeau goes, I think it was the best stepping stone to market pool in a positive way. He's the first guy that came out of the woodwork, knowing he would probably lose money from the start, and ended up losing millions, only to get bashed and slammed from every angle.

All the robots with no personality are killing the game, and believe me, I hate to say it, but about 80 percent of the pool players today on the circuit with their garbage pail personalities won't do anything to help. If they do anything at all, it's all for themselves. If they all tried to unite with one another and work together, not talk bad about each other behind people's back, backstab this player, backstab that player, they might have a chance. Until they recognize that, pool is what it is today.


..........Say's the man who just got a nice royalty check $$ :smile:

btw - I agree with what you said KM!!
 
The major difference between pool and all other sports is the people in charge. nfl, mlb, nba,NASCAR, golf, nhl all have a governing body to set the rules for play and conduct that is expected of all players. I have read countless forums on this site that talk about things like: soft breaks, breaking from the box, safety play, actions of Earl Strickland, the way players rack or rack your own. All tournaments seem to have different rules how can you ever say who the best is. IMO pool needs "ONE" organization to govern pool and to set forth a marketing plan to lure sponsership to OUR great sport.

Chad

Bingo! We have a winner! You're right Chad. We need that leading governing body that is above all others, that could support getting Pool into the Olympics, get sponsers, standardize rules for all games in Pool, certify professional players, help subsidize professional players, develop a 401k plan for professional players, etc..
 
Characters or characters with fine play? A character without fine play wears thin, but a character with fine play attracts.
 
I've been on this site saying what Keith said for a while now course I'm a nobody so it's nice that someone who is greatly respected said it.

Imagine how boring poker would be if the guys never said anything and never celebrated when they won a nice pot.

Mic these pool players and give them an incentive to liven up and chatter and celebrate the nice shots more often would be a start.

I have lots of other ideas.
 
Men's pool

I agree with a lot of what people say. More characters are needed.

AND a fixed set of rules - and a support group for the pro players. And a way of determining who is the pro player.

If you get a chance, go look up USA Pool League (www.playusapool.com) - that is the goal - unite the amateurs and pro players.

Mark Griffin CSI
 
Really???

Nothing New In Men's Pro Pool For Years

Johnnyt, I always enjoy reading your posts, and find that I agree with you 90+% of the time. But I can't agree with you on this.

Just off the top of my head, the last six years have seen...

* A change in the main tournament game from 9-ball to 8-ball (IPT), and now the emergence of 10-ball;

* The rise and fall of the IPT;

* Significant use of the Sardo rack in tournament play and the related emergence of the soft break;

* Very significant growth of the men's tournament game in Europe and Asia;

* Shane's arrival on the scene, with the anticipation that he will become the Archer or Strickland of his generation.

I'm sure that I could add to the list with a little more thought. The point is, there has been a LOT of change. (I'll agree that it has not all been to everyone's liking, or that it has all been in the long term best interest of the game).

On a closing note, it's great that your post has drawn a response from Keith McCready. Keith, we are always interested in what you have to say... keep posting!
 
I do not believe it is the pro players why men's pool has one tire stuck in the sand.

Au contraire, it is the American pool culture who continues to show little to no respect for professional caliber of play, calling professional players jobless bums.

I'm content today with professional pool where it's at. I don't believe that the American culture deserves to have professional pool.

Let the American pool culture eat cake in Philippines and Asian-Pacific Islander countries with the Europeans. Go Philippines. Go Korea. Go Europe. Go Taiwan. Meanwhile, I got to enjoy American pool when it shined brightly.

Let's keep kicking 'em while they're down. Pretty soon, there won't be anything to kick anymore. That's the ticket! :smile:

It's a little bit of both.

The PGA was started by pro golfers and a prominent businessman. It's a two way street.

Do you think it's possible to get 100 professional players to donate 20 hours a year to making a professional organization work?

2000 hours a year? Half a week per player?

I bet I can get some long odds against it happening.

How about if the top pros got together and agreed to give hours and a precentage of their winnings to fund the organization?

Blasphemy!

No, what they want is for a sugar daddy like Trudeau to come along and hand it all to them.

Not once did I see the players out there beating the street to push the IPT to the public.

I have not heard of one single pro player going to a Boys and Girls club to teach them pool for free and spur interest in the game.

The fact is Jenny that no one is gong to do it for them. The ones that try like Mark Griffin are rebuffed or taken advantage of.

The flipside is that most promoters also know that the players have no power and so they do what they want to to the players.

And there will always be players who will come to the events for whatever is there because running around the country and making a score every now and then beats working a 9:5.

And no one wants to (or can afford to) sacrifice a year's earnings meager as they are for the greater good of laying down the groundwork.

The truth is that the players have everything they need to succeed. They even have an army of volunteers who would staff events, do grunt work, prepare graphics, market, etc.... in return for being on the "inside" and rubbing shoulders with the top players. But as a group they have no clue how to leverage that power. They can't coalesce and they rebel against any one who tries to manage them.

So the only way pool is going to succeed is if someone like Trudeau comes along and dumps a bunch of money in it and lays down rules with an iron fist - OR - if the pros get together and agree to sacrifice and contribute to a greater good.

There is no mystery here as to what it takes to run a tournament and a tour. What it takes is WORK.

How much of that are you likely to get out of the average professional pool player that is not related to improving their own game?
 
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