offered to adjust and refused

easy-e

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If you want to play against much better players and you are trying to learn the game and get better; you will see their best game if the spot makes it close to an even match up- I agree with the poster here who said that a much better player, knowing that they have every match in the bag up front, will not bring their A game for you to see, and will play a different game than the one you need to learn from.

It may not be about the money for the learner, but it will be about the money for the much better player - he will not want to give up a dime to a weaker player- so upping the spot properly will show you his better game to learn from.
That doesn't have to be the case. I've had plenty of lower rated players want to play cheap sets just to try to improve. I'll always give them my best game. I'm not very money-driven, and I know plenty of other players that are the same. Pool can still be fun without money. :)
 

Tom1234

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The low stakes take care of it, not that hard to understand. I also don't take spots. If I know I'm dead money I just keep it cheap.

We shot off $300 of ammo yesterday because it was enjoyable. Took about an hour. It's not all about the money involved.
WOW!! I could buy out both Academy Sports and Cabelas around here and not spend $300 on ammo. There is just none to be found (handgun ammo). I envy you; I got a new H&K VP9 and can’t find ammo for it. Hope you can replace the ammunition soon.
 

JC

Coos Cues
Gold Member
No matter what he thinks, he’s not likely to get much better.

Why? Because he doesn’t care about winning. He’s not playing against a better player, he’s simply playing with a better player.
I don't think you can judge whether he cares about winning or not without being inside his head.

Ever have someone you used to dominate come back around and surprise you? They improved somewhere, somehow.

A person can lose a lot and still care about it.
WOW!! I could buy out both Academy Sports and Cabelas around here and not spend $300 on ammo. There is just none to be found (handgun ammo). I envy you; I got a new H&K VP9 and can’t find ammo for it. Hope you can replace the ammunition soon.
Mostly .223 out of an AR. and .45 ACP. The "cheap" rounds are going for around 6 bits each.

Bought out a prepper estate in Jan 2020 the timing could not have been better :)
 

EddieBme

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If the weaker player is trying to learn the right way to play the game, there is another factor. If the mismatch is large, the better player is likely to take risky shots that he would not play in an even game. If he is thinking he has a long-term "patron", he might not bring out the good stuff, like the bank-ticky and the rolling carom, and the learning will be either wrong or slow.
IMO, he would be better off playing in tournaments, ranging from a $2.00 entry fee to a $500 entry fee, (whatever he can afford to spend), as often as he possible.
 

sjm

Sweating it at Derby City
Silver Member
That doesn't have to be the case. I've had plenty of lower rated players want to play cheap sets just to try to improve. I'll always give them my best game. I'm not very money-driven, and I know plenty of other players that are the same. Pool can still be fun without money. :)
Yes, and there are many like you who play full speed all the time and don't let their guard down against a weaker opponent. No need for a spot with such players, but there are also many who don't give their best game against weaker players, and a spot has a way of getting their best game out of them.
 

trob

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Playing one pocket.
Stranger(player B)asks player A to play one pocket.
Player A wins 6 straight for low stakes and it's not even close.
Player A says next time we will adjust.
Player B says no I can only get better playing better players
Player A says even if we adjust you are still playing a better player but have a chance to win.
Player B says no we play even.
I dont get it.
You don’t get it because I guess your a hustler not a player. I never asked for spots when I was gambling even when I was obviously over matched. It was never about the money. It was about finding out if the work I put in was making me better. A spot wasn’t going to tell me that.
 

mikemosconi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
That doesn't have to be the case. I've had plenty of lower rated players want to play cheap sets just to try to improve. I'll always give them my best game. I'm not very money-driven, and I know plenty of other players that are the same. Pool can still be fun without money. :)
Really? Nobody here disputes that cheap sets are a good way for lesser players to learn. However, no one here will convince me that an A player playing a C player with no spot will play their A game 100% of the time- when playing for cash.

You would be the exception, not the rule, if you can maintain an A level focus on every shot in a game that you know you cannot lose with just 60% of your game. Good for you if you can do this, but it is not the norm.
 

mikemosconi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You don’t get it because I guess your a hustler not a player. I never asked for spots when I was gambling even when I was obviously over matched. It was never about the money. It was about finding out if the work I put in was making me better. A spot wasn’t going to tell me that.
The problem with getting no spot from a much better player is that you do not not what game you are getting from the much better player! So how do you judge if you are getting better? Many players, for cash, will play just good enough to keep their hand in your wallet - better to force their best game with the right spot and then judge your improvement by forcing them over them to reduce the spot- much better way to judge your own improvement. From my own experience.
 

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
The problem with getting no spot from a much better player is that you do not not what game you are getting from the much better player! So how do you judge if you are getting better? Many players, for cash, will play just good enough to keep their hand in your wallet - better to force their best game with the right spot and then judge your improvement by forcing them over them to reduce the spot- much better way to judge your own improvement. From my own experience.
Unfortunately I think you're right here. North American Pool in of itself is populated with players that are generally looking to take advantage of others. I make the distinction of North America simply because I have no exposure beyond this continent, so I really can't comment on the attitude aboard.

Speaking for myself, I can honestly say that the ability of an equally matched or lesser the opponent does not matter to me, however with these players the bet does. These players will normally not get my 'best' effort if I'm indifferent to losing the bet. I view these situations as practice time, and will take risks in an effort to expand my abilities within game play. Once the wager reaches a 'ouch that sucks' level, I will then pull in the reins and take it seriously. This raises a moral issue for me, as I will not accept a large wager match with a drastically lesser local player. For these notably lesser players, I flat out ask what kind of match they want and do my best to oblige. It's actually quite a sad state of affairs really. I've been back in the game seriously for a few years now, and I still have guys refusing my initial requests for a game because they think they 'must' put up a large bet just to play me.

Now if I'm matching up against someone who is even just perceived as stronger then I am, then once again, the bet does not matter. It's all guns blazing... I want that win, and I want it without a handicap in my favour.

Personally..., I think if someone wants to gauge their own development. They should do so in a tournament format. In the world of match play gambling, there's too many other things going on to know if you're ever getting a legit game.
 

easy-e

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Really? Nobody here disputes that cheap sets are a good way for lesser players to learn. However, no one here will convince me that an A player playing a C player with no spot will play their A game 100% of the time- when playing for cash.

You would be the exception, not the rule, if you can maintain an A level focus on every shot in a game that you know you cannot lose with just 60% of your game. Good for you if you can do this, but it is not the norm.
I may not give 100%, but I am definitely trying to win every game. Your post earlier said something about just playing good enough to win, that's where I disagreed. I may try to get a little cute with position sometime, rather than play the best percentage, but I will absolutely try to beat the guy 9-0.
 

DelawareDogs

I'll take 2 the and break
Silver Member
I refuse weight from stronger players. I want to measure myself, and I want the satisfaction of knowing that if they feel the need to adjust to grind mode to win, it's because they're are truly threatened by me and not the weight.

To each their own....

The bet is small so who cares. If the bet was large it would be a different story
I concur with this.

I don't get weight from strong players for smaller stakes.
Either I play better and win, or I'm not playing good enough and lose. If it's extremely lopsided and I'm not playing good, I'll just pull up.

I've got no problem giving weight if the weight is warranted. I'm all about giving a challenge to myself.

For example: I don't play 1P. So if I get into ANY kind of one hole game for even small stakes (I now I'm contradicting myself) I'll take 9-7 at least against someone who plays the game all the time. Maybe more if they're seasoned.

Also, call me nuts, but in rotation games - if I'm getting spotted balls, I don't play as well. I'd rather run 'em out like a normal player. If I'm too focused on getting to a certain ball, it muddles me up.
 

DelawareDogs

I'll take 2 the and break
Silver Member
Oh ok... The bolded is the difference between our opinions. I always try my hardest when playing someone of greater ability. Stealing a frame or two and still losing 2-11 to SVB would still give me some bragging rights imo.

Golf isn't a good comparable in this. A golfer plays the course, not his opponent.
Pool isn't too much different in your last statement. SVB plays the table, much more so than he plays his opponent.
Unless it's some kids birthday and his mom wants to get a video of an 8 ball match, then things might get different...... :cool:
 

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
Pool isn't too much different in your last statement. SVB plays the table, much more so than he plays his opponent.
Unless it's some kids birthday and his mom wants to get a video of an 8 ball match, then things might get different...... :cool:
Of course you're playing what the table has given you. However, until they change the rules of golf so I can opt to kick my opponent's golf ball behind a tree. The games are not comparable, imo.... ;)
 

DelawareDogs

I'll take 2 the and break
Silver Member
I've played a few guys like that -- it's an old school mentality you don't see much of anymore nowadays.

One guy, each time we'd play, I'd offer him a blank check.

Me: "How do you want to play?"

Him: "Even."

After administering three or four beatings I told him I wouldn't play him for money anymore and in time we became pretty good friends.

Lou Figueroa
That's class, Lou.
And I hope after that you still played him, and he learned more.
 

DelawareDogs

I'll take 2 the and break
Silver Member
I was out of town in a room that I like, ran into some action.

We did races to 5 for $40 on 8ft clean diamonds with beautiful equipment - measle ball.

First set he absolutely trounced me. 5/1 or 5/2.
He offered to give me a game on the wire, so I said yeah sure (he was a total stranger so maybe he was laying low)

I got him, 5/2 and said "yeah how about we don't do that".
The nod of agreement from my new friend was a good feeling.
 

bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Do you guys think the player B wants the better player to not play his best so player B can get to shoot alittle more ?
player B still learns patterns from the better playerand maybe if he is donating easy money he can ask some questions and get help?
just a thought
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
For about ten years pool was business. While I worked a steady pace on my day job and got a lot done, I didn't run like a crazy man every day trying to get the absolute most done that I could. Under the gun yes, most days no. I carried the same thing over into pool once it became a cash cow. I wasn't going to play balls to the wall my best game unless I had to. Local gamblers expected to get a shot or two most games and didn't mind losing a little as long as they felt they had a chance. Breaking out my road player game against a local gambler killed things with them and everyone watching when they got ran over with no chance and these fairly small bets were my bread and butter.

Once in awhile I tangled with a road player and got to compete. It was a lot more fun, but no sure thing. I never played a road player any way but even, never took a spot from anyone. The reason was simple, no bragging rights for beating someone when I was getting spotted. I listened to other people bragging. "Were you getting spotted? "Well yeah, I was getting three on the wire racing to seven and the blueberry crush but I beat him!" I usually didn't say anything but the player didn't beat the other man, the spot did.

I can't brag about beating somebody at anything if I'm taking a spot. If I can't play somebody even with a chance of winning I am in the wrong game.

Hu
 

DelawareDogs

I'll take 2 the and break
Silver Member
Do you guys think the player B wants the better player to not play his best so player B can get to shoot alittle more ?
player B still learns patterns from the better playerand maybe if he is donating easy money he can ask some questions and get help?
just a thought
That's a good question. Could be.

Personally I wouldn't want anyone to give anything less than 100% of their game. Play hard unless you're just looking for customers. If player A and B know each other pretty well, then I would hope that's the case.

But if the goal is to shoot a little more, then player B can go on an empty table and shoot all he wants and just pay table time.
If I'm in cheap sets, it's not to watch a good player lay down just so the other person can get more shots.
 
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