Okay - Lets have it out! CNC vs. Non CNC'd made cues
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cueman said:
I understand what you're saying Chris and agree in part. I'm not against CNC, it just isn't what I choose to do. As long as cues are being made, there will be the cue maker that chooses to make them manually. Yes, the same can be said for CNC as well. As you suggested though, they should first be built well, then for looks. Therein lies the problem though. In many instances they are being built for the eye candy first and attention is being diverted from the construction/hit quality. Example: An acquaintance just got his new Alingrite set up and operating. He called recently asking why he was having problems with his points chipping out at the tip. Turns out he was using 3M 77 to bond his veneers to his point squares. He "read on the internet" that it was okay to use. When I ask him why he decided to go that way, he stated he felt the 3M would be much faster. Uhhhh?
And that's the way it should be! The customer that is paying for the product is entitled to it.cueman said:
History repeating itself possibly? The traditional points in my opinion, are absolutely beautiful (if done properly of course). But even in those I still see laziness in some of the work shown. Points that are not equal in length, bridges (where long & short points intersect) not equal in length, points not centered on the work piece, etc.).cueman said:
I have my own opinion on that subject, maybe I better leave it alone though. I've stirred the pot a little as it is.cueman said:
I agree, CNC is here to stay. Nearly everything we touch today was manufactured using some sort of computerized machinery. Heck, my wifes car emailed her to let her know it was due for servicing. Only problem is, it was 2500 miles too soon
Like they said in the old days: Tap Tapcueman said:
That can be done with a tracer or a pantograph (with indexing capabilities naturally). I would guess that one was done via CNC though, only because I see the mans initials on the cue. BTW, he does very nice work.PoolSleuth said:CNC=Computer Numerical Control is just another Tool in Man Cuemakers ARSENAL. How could you accomplish something like this without CNC
See photo below....
PoolSleuth
Banned
Well I hate to admit it as it brings back a few bad memories of smell & feel cutting oils I would like to forget, but I worked in a machine shop during the 60's an CNC made it possible to do work that we very close tolerance.
Simple design can be done without CNC, but for High QUALITY work I would want CNC in my shop if I was a Cuemaker, and could afford the Tools.
I am sure builder like McWorther, and Gina could not do what they do in intricate PRECESSION work with out the aid of CNC....
Simple design can be done without CNC, but for High QUALITY work I would want CNC in my shop if I was a Cuemaker, and could afford the Tools.
I am sure builder like McWorther, and Gina could not do what they do in intricate PRECESSION work with out the aid of CNC....
PoolSleuth said:CNC=Computer Numerical Control is just another Tool in Man Cuemakers ARSENAL. How could you accomplish something like this without CNC
See photo below....
I can do a pattern like that with my manual Gorton machine with no problem at all, it will just take me a little longer. Although many of the inlay patterns you see done would be all but impossible to do with a manual machine or at the least extremely time consuming.
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That is exactly the point!!!!!
You can't see how someone can do something like that without a CNC machine....
That's where the art comes into play. I could do that by hand. No not with my finger nails smart asses... It would take a lot longer than with a CNC machine.
Alright to get straight into the debate...
V groove vs. flat bottom - V- groove will be better for one reason. It's accurate to 0 inches not .00001 inches. You're talking about using a perfectly square block of wood on an angle cut with a perfectly 90 degree bit from a router or milling machine. then it is glued in place using pressure if it is done right, for a perfect fit.
"Ok, Jaden, but you can still cut a v- groove using a CNC machine"
Yes but the bit is NOT a 90 degree bit, so it will not cut the groove perfectly, of course it can be argued that the variance is so smal as to be negligable, but I don't think so. Besides, I've seen good cuemakers who use CNC and I've known none that 1) use v grooves, and 2) use pressure fitting like with traditional designs.
Ok now to this debate as to whether it takes as much skill to use a CNC as it does by hand. The argument that good CNC'ers need to have the background knowledge of hand makers is complete bogus, it just so happens that the majority of CNC'ers already HAVE that background knowledge because they switched to CNC for many tasks that took a larger amount of time and weren't as accurate. Splicing and non floating points is not one of them. People who use a CNC machine to do standard points with veneers IMO are just short cutting to make more money. Ok back on point. Yes, CNC takes skills, but not artisan skills. It may take machinery skills and computer skills and more specifically it takes CNC skills, but it does NOT take ARTISAN skills.
The Artisan part of it is completely separate when it comes to CNC. There are many excellent Cuemakers that use CNC. Their designs are specifically tailored to CNC though. ANy traditional type cue that CNC is used for is INFERIOR, period. It can't be argued any other way.
Cue making is an artisans craft, whether that artisanry is solely making the design like in CNC, or using understanding of wood working and joining to make the more traditional type cues of the past masters doesn't really matter, each has it's strengths and weaknesses. Traditionally made cues CANNOT be as ornate as newer highly qualified CNC cues without incredible amount of knwoledge and work which I wouldn't expect to be able to get for less than twice the cost of a CNC made cue, and CNC cues cannot be as well made and solid hitting as traditionally made cues, and before anyone jumps up and yells that cnc cues hit as good or better, or that feel of hit is subjective, stop and ask yourself if you have subjectively hit with different cues. You haven't. Most haven't. You would have to cover the cue with something so you wouldn't know what it was to really do a subjective feel test. I know that the majority of people who have hit with a Southwest, Balabushka, old style Joss west, and several others, all agree that their hit is superior to anything else out there.
So in final answer to this question. CNC has its place, Traditional has its place.
For intricacy of design, CNC can't be beat for the price.
For quality of craftsmanship, feel of hit, and beauty of understanding, traditional cannot be beat.
PoolSleuth said:CNC=Computer Numerical Control is just another Tool in Man Cuemakers ARSENAL. How could you accomplish something like this without CNC
See photo below....
You can't see how someone can do something like that without a CNC machine....
That's where the art comes into play. I could do that by hand. No not with my finger nails smart asses... It would take a lot longer than with a CNC machine.
Alright to get straight into the debate...
V groove vs. flat bottom - V- groove will be better for one reason. It's accurate to 0 inches not .00001 inches. You're talking about using a perfectly square block of wood on an angle cut with a perfectly 90 degree bit from a router or milling machine. then it is glued in place using pressure if it is done right, for a perfect fit.
"Ok, Jaden, but you can still cut a v- groove using a CNC machine"
Yes but the bit is NOT a 90 degree bit, so it will not cut the groove perfectly, of course it can be argued that the variance is so smal as to be negligable, but I don't think so. Besides, I've seen good cuemakers who use CNC and I've known none that 1) use v grooves, and 2) use pressure fitting like with traditional designs.
Ok now to this debate as to whether it takes as much skill to use a CNC as it does by hand. The argument that good CNC'ers need to have the background knowledge of hand makers is complete bogus, it just so happens that the majority of CNC'ers already HAVE that background knowledge because they switched to CNC for many tasks that took a larger amount of time and weren't as accurate. Splicing and non floating points is not one of them. People who use a CNC machine to do standard points with veneers IMO are just short cutting to make more money. Ok back on point. Yes, CNC takes skills, but not artisan skills. It may take machinery skills and computer skills and more specifically it takes CNC skills, but it does NOT take ARTISAN skills.
The Artisan part of it is completely separate when it comes to CNC. There are many excellent Cuemakers that use CNC. Their designs are specifically tailored to CNC though. ANy traditional type cue that CNC is used for is INFERIOR, period. It can't be argued any other way.
Cue making is an artisans craft, whether that artisanry is solely making the design like in CNC, or using understanding of wood working and joining to make the more traditional type cues of the past masters doesn't really matter, each has it's strengths and weaknesses. Traditionally made cues CANNOT be as ornate as newer highly qualified CNC cues without incredible amount of knwoledge and work which I wouldn't expect to be able to get for less than twice the cost of a CNC made cue, and CNC cues cannot be as well made and solid hitting as traditionally made cues, and before anyone jumps up and yells that cnc cues hit as good or better, or that feel of hit is subjective, stop and ask yourself if you have subjectively hit with different cues. You haven't. Most haven't. You would have to cover the cue with something so you wouldn't know what it was to really do a subjective feel test. I know that the majority of people who have hit with a Southwest, Balabushka, old style Joss west, and several others, all agree that their hit is superior to anything else out there.
So in final answer to this question. CNC has its place, Traditional has its place.
For intricacy of design, CNC can't be beat for the price.
For quality of craftsmanship, feel of hit, and beauty of understanding, traditional cannot be beat.
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macguy said:
CNC's use a square or round bit which as it turns is moved according to computer coordinates that are programmed in. I guess depending on the CNC machine you might be able to use a 90 bit, but I don't know of any, and it would take more time to set up as opposed to using a traditional router or mill.
There are two main types of ninety degree bits. The conical ninety degree bit and the spherical ninety degree bit which when run along the wood at a an angle will cut the v groove
macguy said:
Yes you will have a nice match, even with a flat bottom, but there is a greater liklihood air pockets and bubbles, and a greater difficulty in controlling the quality of adhesion with flat bottom square joins, that's why they did full splices to begin with. By gluing the veneers and putting them under a press, that creates the highest quality join, and then by gluing them into a v at an angle and applying pressure through various means and waiting for the glue to dry before relieving the pressure, it gives a much more controlled join. In addition, In CNC cue manufacture, they will usually turn the forearm round before they cut them with the CNC for joining. Using traditional methods, you can join the splices while it is still in squre format, alowing for the cutting away of the excess glue bubbles that form inside as pressure forces the glue outward.
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One other thing...
By completely creating the forearm in square format and THEN turning it down. It allows greater flexibility in the amount of cure time between turning sessions. If you want the cue to resist warping, you have to let the wood rest as you turn it down. With CNCing it is turned down before the inlays are added, this gives less cure time for the joined woods in between turning sessions. It may be negligable, but all of these small negligable things add up to a higher quality cue and a better feel of hit.
By completely creating the forearm in square format and THEN turning it down. It allows greater flexibility in the amount of cure time between turning sessions. If you want the cue to resist warping, you have to let the wood rest as you turn it down. With CNCing it is turned down before the inlays are added, this gives less cure time for the joined woods in between turning sessions. It may be negligable, but all of these small negligable things add up to a higher quality cue and a better feel of hit.
Jaden, I'm not understanding this.Jaden said:
Why can't one make a forearm blank, let it rest, turn it down at least twice, let it sit and if it doesn't move, join it with a handle, turn it down to around maybe 50 thou over. Then cnc all the pockets ( assuming the cnc can travel 30 inches plus, if not cnc the forearm and sleeve before joining) ?
Also, why can't true v-points be not possible with cnc?
Use a router with a 90-degree bit instead of flat-bottom. Just offset the forearm and cut away.
thnx
JoeyInCali said:
I didn't say true V points weren't possible with CNC, they just aren't as true because it's being cut with a smaller bit that will leave fine, well very fine imperfections but still imperfections, But the main point is that I know of no one that uses cnc for points that does V's with them. The biggest difference between the majority of CNC'd points and traditionally made points is the square or flat bottom joining and the v groove. In square bottom, even if the were glued with a press, The sides are flat so there will be gaps and more air pockets and glue bubbles I don't care how closely they are cut. With v Groove and a press, the presure and the forty five degree angle of each side of the square causes there to be NO gap inbetween the wood layers, effectively making it one piece of wood.
OH by the way, if they use a CNC in the way you stated to make the v groove, then it really isn;t CNC'd. It's manually done on a CNC..
Yes, there is nothing wrong with turning it down that far and then ADDING the points and inlays, in fact with like MOP or whatever material inlay it probably doesn't matter at all because the depth is minimal, but with points, because they are not joined as well with flat bottom square sides, When the final turn is done, there is lack of cohesion between the woods because the points at certain points are taking up the majority of the circumference of the forearm, so the turning makes it even less of a cohesive unit.
With traditionally done points, if they are added as a square, then the whole turning process is a single cohesive unit, adding to the feel of hit and the longevity of the straightness.
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Jaden said:I didn't say true V points weren't possible with CNC, they just aren't as true because it's being cut with a smaller bit that will leave fine, well very fine imperfections but still imperfections, But the main point is that I know of no one that uses cnc for points that does V's with them. The biggest difference between the majority of CNC'd points and traditionally made points is the square or flat bottom joining and the v groove. In square bottom, even if the were glued with a press, The sides are flat so there will be gaps and more air pockets and glue bubbles I don't care how closely they are cut. With v Groove and a press, the presure and the forty five degree angle of each side of the square causes there to be NO gap inbetween the wood layers, effectively making it one piece of wood.
Agree with that. With true v-points, there's hardly, or none at all, glue gaps.
Yes, there is nothing wrong with turning it down that far and then ADDING the points and inlays, in fact with like MOP or whatever material inlay it probably doesn't matter at all because the depth is minimal, but with points, because they are not joined as well with flat bottom square sides, When the final turn is done, there is lack of cohesion between the woods because the points at certain points are taking up the majority of the circumference of the forearm, so the turning makes it even less of a cohesive unit.Ouch! You're gonna hear from flat-bottom cnc'rs. I have no comment on this.
Cornerman said:
Bill Stroud uses a CNC machine... His points are "razor" sharp... His cue are still collectors and apreciate in value... I am not an expert, but Scruggs ivory inlays look like CNC work, along with a few other top cuemakers... I would rather have a TS or SW with no points than a meuci with sharp points... CNC or not, who knows how to cure their wood or turn a shaft correctly so you have a CONSISTANT solid hit... I like razor sharp point myself, but there is so much more into a stick than points... JMO...
Jaden said:
Jaden, Your contribution is appreciated, but I'm afraid you have been ill advised on a few things. It sounds to me you are confusing full spliced with half spliced. What you are referring to as "traditionally done points" in the paragraph above, is actually the full splice method (similar to a house cue if you will).
Danny 314 said:
no there not. the outer veneer is rounded it's not razor sharp. his inner veneers are though and their put in just like inlays into flat bottom pockets. this being said he is one of if not the greatest traditional cue designer ever in my a****** opinion.
skins said:no there not. the outer veneer is rounded it's not razor sharp. his inner veneers are though and their put in just like inlays into flat bottom pockets. this being said he is one of if not the greatest traditional cue designer ever in my a****** opinion.
I did not know that till i really looked at a few of his cues... Thanks for correcting me... I'm not reaaly a fan of JW cues, but I always thought the points were sharp...