Olathe!!!! What A Joke!!!

[pacain]

First I blame the format... then I blame the players who are teaming.

Shoulda been a round-robin in my opinion... with tie-breakers similar to what the IPT was doing... much less chance for a bunch of shit going down.

i don't understand why tournaments would even consider this format. surely everybody would assume something like this could happen, and probably would happen if the opportunity arises. in poker, this is a common thing,for the big stacks to team up against the short stack, but there's no sidebetting, calcutta, etc, and IT IS EXPECTED. with most pool players having enough problems just having enough $ to stay afloat, this kind of thing is invited. if there are no time restraints, wht not use the ipt format ? i would certainly feel i was gettng my money in on a better bet if that were the case

 

[poolfire]

maybe

i don't understand why tournaments would even consider this format. surely everybody would assume something like this could happen, and probably would happen if the opportunity arises. in poker, this is a common thing,for the big stacks to team up against the short stack, but there's no sidebetting, calcutta, etc, and IT IS EXPECTED. with most pool players having enough problems just having enough $ to stay afloat, this kind of thing is invited. if there are no time restraints, wht not use the ipt format ? i would certainly feel i was gettng my money in on a better bet if that were the case

maybe when it gets down to four people they should goto a round-robin then you wouldnt have any questions. not that i have any watched the whole tourny.

 

[jay helfert]

My opinion is this. It was a great format and a great event! THANK YOU DAN TULL! And to the Dysarts that ran it. And to TAR for letting us get a glimpse.

What's happened here is that someone tried to make a mountain out of a molehill. And spoil an otherwise great pool tournament.

My only suggestion is to go to Diamonds next year. A little more level playing field for the bar boxes.

 

[JoeyA]

This past weekend on Olathe they run a great tournament and the guys from the action report provided free coverage to a lot of pool fans.They were trying to do some good for pool but in the end it was all overshadowed by a complete joke!!!!!!!!

Everyone pretty much knows what happen but i will tell you again...Orcullo was down basically to his last barrell 3300 and it was 3000 a game....Banks was shooting missed a kick and McMinn let him shoot again on a straight in ball.....Orcullo immediately unscrewed and walked away...Banks was attempting run out got out of line on the 8 rail to rail and lagged the cue ball down to it and left mcminn straight in....THIS IS WHY THERE IS NO MONEY IN POOL...WHEN SOMETHING LIKE THIS HAPPENS AND SHOWS THERE IS NO HONOR IN THE SPORT...THEN WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER TRY TO HELP AND PROMOTE POOL OR SPONSOR IT..

This could have been stopped though...The owner Dan Tull didnt do anything....If he would have came out of the crowd and said no this isn't going to go down like this and said redraw order and rebreak and play honest or get the hell out of here.....When i Personally asked if he is going to do anything to stop this as soon as it happened...he kind of lAUghed at me and said Orcullo quit..............WHAT AN ABSOLUTE A$$HOLE!!!!...THESE GUYS JUST MADE A MOCKERY OF HIS POOL ROOM AND HE LET IT HAPPEN..............He should have been the last person in the world laughing!!

I do not blame the players because there is no money in pool and they have to fight and do the wrong things sometimes just to survive.....Some might say well you had a big bet against banks jr to win the tourney thats why u were so mad but even if I didnt have a bet this would have offended me horribly its gross what happened...Needless to say these tourneys are done there won't be another like it after this incident...but if Dan Tull would have done the right thing and step in because it was his room and his tourney...then it would have set a precident and let people know that shady things like this can't go on in Pool if we ever expect it to be a respectable sport with good money for the great players.........

This subject came up at the pool hall last night and we discussed it for a minute. The consensus was that there was nothing unethical about what was done. It had nothing to do with racial discrimination. It has everything to do with insuring a win yet following the rules of the tournament, albeit stretching them, but still within the limits of the rules of the tournament.

Thinking back at some ring games that I have played in, and of course they weren't for this kind of money to say the least, we did play rather rough against any of the players hanging on by a thread. It is the nature of a ring game..... Get out as many players as you can because you never know if the player gasping for air is going to come back and haunt you.

Bunting a ball to make sure that it either goes in the hole or stays close to the hole to insure that you knock another player out is not a mortal sin and is smart play. Making another player shoot again when they foul is part of the game as well and is just another part of strategy.

I imagine that if you asked Jose Parica and Dennis Orcullo what they would do under the same circumstances, if they were honest about it, they would have to concede like I do, that they would have done the same thing. Dennis quiting is also understandable. His disappointment in allowing himself to be put in that situation had to be wearing on him. The handwriting was on the wall and he knew he had to go if the players had any sense about themselves.

I am wondering if Jamie McWhorter had any bets on this match and that is why he posted such a slanderous post.

The only despicable thing in this thread is Jamie insinuating that anything illegal or unethical was done. These guys played hard, all of them. If the shoe was on the other foot, nothing different would have been done, IMHO.

Jamie: Dan Tull & Shooters and www.theactionreport.com gave the world a chance to see some high dollar bar table action by some of the best players in the world and you come on here throwing dirty water on this historical event. I hope you are very wrong about your forecast for events like this and am very sorry you came to that conclusion.

Hopefully, it was only sour grapes and it was only because you had bet on the wrong guy. Regardless, you could have thought about your post long and hard before sending it.

You have accomplished nothing good by your post and have tainted Dan Tull's reputation with your accusations and sentiments.

JoeyA
This edit changes nothing I said above but I went back and read through many of the posts where Jamie admitted having a bet on the match and I guess that explains his angst or at least some of it. Still no need to knock the creator of this historical event, IMHO.

 

[Southpaw]

GREAT....first we have Vick and the NFL problem , then the NBA ref scandal and Bud Selig having to be persuaded to be present when Bonds is playing...now a scandal in the pool world! WOW...this sport is really coming along.....

Southpaw

 

[crosseyedjoe]

I was there to Jamey. We knew that if they could get by SVB and Kim D. this would happen. I give all credit to Mark Griffin who sucked it up and paid the Bonus. Did anyone hear any whining from him? NO!

Of course, Mark is a man, not a mouse.

Well, it's not like it's against another player because I think that is the real and bigger issue.

 

[ccshrimper]

When Scotty joined the table with Dennis on the second day, I saw Dennis try to bank a ball that had NO chance of going by two other balls in the way. He barely hit it hard enough to get to the pocket, much less combo or carom off one of the two balls in the way. There was a ball almost in the pocket on that shot he could have caromed easy enough but didn't. He lagged the cue ball down table and left Scotty a kick. Scotty didn't have a good shot on a ball following Dennis until he'd gone from around 6600 in chips to 3000. Dennis broke the rules of making an honest effort, which is cheating. Shane took advantage of the rules at worst.

JCIN, when I was in the military I had to threaten a few guys for talking down to me or cursing at me. After being in for a while, I realized they weren't trying to start a fight with me. They were just from different parts of the country where that stuff is acceptible(New Yorkers were the worst). Instead of threatening to kick their butts for it, I'd just let them know where I was from (Louisiana), we didn't take that kind of crap without fisticuffs... They'd lay off after that and try to watch what they said to me.

I imagine Jamie is used to saying this kind of stuff or having it said to him without fear of a fight. You've apologized to him and Jamie should shut up now so it never goes any further than internet argueing.

Shane

 

[crawfish]

Good point

When Scotty joined the table with Dennis on the second day, I saw Dennis try to bank a ball that had NO chance of going by two other balls in the way. He barely hit it hard enough to get to the pocket, much less combo or carom off one of the two balls in the way. There was a ball almost in the pocket on that shot he could have caromed easy enough but didn't. He lagged the cue ball down table and left Scotty a kick. Scotty didn't have a good shot on a ball following Dennis until he'd gone from around 6600 in chips to 3000. Dennis broke the rules of making an honest effort, which is cheating. Shane took advantage of the rules at worst.

JCIN, when I was in the military I had to threaten a few guys for talking down to me or cursing at me. After being in for a while, I realized they weren't trying to start a fight with me. They were just from different parts of the country where that stuff is acceptible(New Yorkers were the worst). Instead of threatening to kick their butts for it, I'd just let them know where I was from (Louisiana), we didn't take that kind of crap without fisticuffs... They'd lay off after that and try to watch what they said to me.

I imagine Jamie is used to saying this kind of stuff or having it said to him without fear of a fight. You've apologized to him and Jamie should shut up now so it never goes any further than internet argueing.

Shane

I am from the mountains, here in North Carolina. Growing up, people fought just to see who could win. Much less for name calling. You call someone ANY name, and you'd better cover. When I went up north, playing pool, I couldn't get used to the screaming, name calling, and accepted behavior. Some poolrooms, and areas in general, that aggressive banter is accepted. Catches this ol' hillbilly off guard sometimes, too. You have to consider your surroundings and the background of the "caller" also. When I was in college, in the 80's, I was truely culture shocked. I now have learned to assess, evaluate and react. This comes with education and age, and experience. Overreacting comes early in life.... your twenties? I'd say we'd all like to see this dropped.

 

[gotuontilt]

I really can't believe so many on here don't get it. YOU CAN'T PLAY 2 AGAINST ONE AND THAT IS WHAT WAS GOING ON...THAT IS CHEATING AND IF IT WAS A STRAIGHT CASH GAME SOMEONE COULD GET SHOT!!!!!!!!!

Cheating as defined in the dictionary is "Violating the rules deliberately". No rules were violated. You may not like what happened but it was not cheating.

 

[JAM]

For any pool tournament, it is imperative for competitors to UNDERSTAND the rules thoroughly. Just like the wonderful world of pocket billiards consisting of so many games, i.e., 14.1, 10-ball, 9-ball, 8-ball, 7-ball, 3-ball, one-pocket, golf, banks, each game also come with a whole slew of rules.

I could recite various iterations of 8-ball rules, like 8-ball neutral, 8-ball not neutral, must hit the 8-ball on the last shot, 8 on the break wins, 8on the break loses, call pocket, call shot, slop counts, et cetera, et cetera.

Where I used to play pool, it was considered the NORM that all players make an honest effort. In other words, if you didn't have a shot, you must try attempt to execute a legal shot, i.e., "honest effort." If a player deliberately executed a shot which left his opponent snookered, not attempting to hit the object ball, it would be looked upon as cheating. The locals in my neighborhood tavern would NEVER comprehend a player shooting a deliberate safety.

Of course, in today's 9-ball tournaments, it is customary for a player to play safe if they don't have a good shot. Honest effort doesn't apply to most 9-ball tournaments today.

In the Olathe 10-ball ring game, I was -- and may still be -- confused about the rules. Were the players supposed to make an honest effort on all shots, or is safety play acceptable?

Thanks in advance to answering what may seem like an elementary question to most.

JAM

 

[JamieMcWhorter]

Wrong!!!!!!!!!

What's interesting to me is that in all this, not a word out of Orcullo. He accepted his fate and moved on. He could have complained and made some noise but he chose not to. He has already moved on, looking for his next game (victim).

He knows how to reach me and if he had a major complaint, I'm sure I would hear from him. Not a peep. No wonder why I like this guy.

WRONG DENNIS DID COMPLAIN...HE ACTUALLY WENT AND STARTED DRINKING AS SOOON AS IT HAPPENED..WITHIN 5 MINS HE HAD A BEER IN HIS HAND SO I THINK HE WAS VERY UPSET...........AND HE COMPLAINED ALONG TIME IN A CROWD SAYING HOW BAD THAT WAS AND SO FORTH.........BECAUSE IT WAS HORRIBLE.........

IM NOT SAYING THE FILLIPINOS WOULDN'T HAVE DONE THE SAME THING............IM SAYING ITS OUR FAULT AS THE POOL WORLD THAT WE LET THINGS LIKE THIS HAPPEN........

MARK GRIFFIN SHOULD HAVE NOT PAID THEM THEIR TOURNAMENT MONEY IF THEY REALLY DID DUMP FOR KIAMCO TO GET THE BONUS MONEY.....NO BONUS MONEY OR TOURNEY MONEY........THEN NEXT TIME SOMEWHERE WHEN A SIMILAR SITUATION AROSE THE PLAYERS WOULD KNOW BETTER THAN TO DO ANYTHING SHADY OR THEY WILL BEKICKED OUT OF THE TOURNEY AND NOT BE PAID A QUARTER............

IT WILL ONLY TAKE ONE TOURNAMENT AND ONE PRESCIDENT....IF THEY PLAYERS DO SOMETHING OUT OF LINE ...DON'T PAY THEM THEN NEXT TIME THEY WILL KNOW BETTER AND MAYBE JUST MAYBE SOMEDAY WE COULD ELIMINATE SAVERS AND CHOPPING AND ALL THE LITTLE SHADY THINGS THAT PLAYERS DO AND NEVER ARE PUNISHED FOR THEM...IT WILL ONLY TAKE ONE INCIDENT OF NOT PAYING THE PLAYERS FOR DOING SOMETHING SHADY AND NOBODY WILL EVER DO IT AGAIN BECAUSE THEY WILL BE SO AFRAID THAT THEY WONT GET PAID...............

AND SOMEDAY ARE SPORT COULD BE LOOKED UPON AS A RESPECTABLE GAME AND NOT A GAME OF CROOKS..............

 

[uwate]

McWoofer is working on a new moniker...Jamie McWhiner?

 

[Thecoats]

In the "new" Diamond Ring Game rules, it will pass to the next player, to protect against this sort of thing.

The same falacy can occur in this method as the incoming player could then pass a very difficult/impossible shot to the next player which may be equally penalizing as giving an easy shot back to the previous shooter.

When discussing the situation at Olathe, Warren Kiamco had an idea where if the incoming player could see the object ball they had to play the shot and could not pass. The final decision would be at the discretion of the tournament director.

-don

 

[jingle]

The same falacy can occur in this method as the incoming player could then pass a very difficult/impossible shot to the next player which may be equally penalizing as giving an easy shot back to the previous shooter.

When discussing the situation at Olathe, Warren Kiamco had an idea where if the incoming player could see the object ball they had to play the shot and could not pass. The final decision would be at the discretion of the tournament director.

-don

If I understood correctly, I believe Jay's idea was to allow the shot to be passed to the next player with each player (except the original shooter) having the option to shoot or pass. (so it could ultimately go back to the original shooter if everyone passed on it). Am I right, Jay?

 

[crosseyedjoe]

The same falacy can occur in this method as the incoming player could then pass a very difficult/impossible shot to the next player which may be equally penalizing as giving an easy shot back to the previous shooter.

When discussing the situation at Olathe, Warren Kiamco had an idea where if the incoming player could see the object ball they had to play the shot and could not pass. The final decision would be at the discretion of the tournament director.

-don

I think the ball-in-hand rule for pass, miss, and foul is a good idea. So the very subjective "honest effort" rule is not even needed.

 

[jay helfert]

The same falacy can occur in this method as the incoming player could then pass a very difficult/impossible shot to the next player which may be equally penalizing as giving an easy shot back to the previous shooter.

When discussing the situation at Olathe, Warren Kiamco had an idea where if the incoming player could see the object ball they had to play the shot and could not pass. The final decision would be at the discretion of the tournament director.

-don

If a very difficult/impossible shot is passed to the next player, he can pass also. It will ultimately end up going back to the original shooter who must shoot again.

 

[jay helfert]

If I understood correctly, I believe Jay's idea was to allow the shot to be passed to the next player with each player (except the original shooter) having the option to shoot or pass. (so it could ultimately go back to the original shooter if everyone passed on it). Am I right, Jay?

That is correct.

 

[Thecoats]

I really can't believe so many on here don't get it. YOU CAN'T PLAY 2 AGAINST ONE AND THAT IS WHAT WAS GOING ON...THAT IS CHEATING AND IF IT WAS A STRAIGHT CASH GAME SOMEONE COULD GET SHOT!!!!!!!!!

They were not playing two against one, Shane made a single decision to pass a difficult shot back to Mike one time and this IDIOT MCWHORTER has turned that single decision by Shane that was well within the rules into a a full blown situation where the players were repeatedly ganging up on Orcollo. It was one decision by one player within the rules and following that decision Orcollo quit - END OF RING GAME on to the race to 21.

-don

 

[Thecoats]

If a very difficult/impossible shot is passed to the next player, he can pass also. It will ultimately end up going back to the original shooter who must shoot again.

I like that idea, I think it would help to eliminate collusion.

-don

 

[jay helfert]

WRONG DENNIS DID COMPLAIN...HE ACTUALLY WENT AND STARTED DRINKING AS SOOON AS IT HAPPENED..WITHIN 5 MINS HE HAD A BEER IN HIS HAND SO I THINK HE WAS VERY UPSET...........AND HE COMPLAINED ALONG TIME IN A CROWD SAYING HOW BAD THAT WAS AND SO FORTH.........BECAUSE IT WAS HORRIBLE.........

IM NOT SAYING THE FILLIPINOS WOULDN'T HAVE DONE THE SAME THING............IM SAYING ITS OUR FAULT AS THE POOL WORLD THAT WE LET THINGS LIKE THIS HAPPEN........

MARK GRIFFIN SHOULD HAVE NOT PAID THEM THEIR TOURNAMENT MONEY IF THEY REALLY DID DUMP FOR KIAMCO TO GET THE BONUS MONEY.....NO BONUS MONEY OR TOURNEY MONEY........THEN NEXT TIME SOMEWHERE WHEN A SIMILAR SITUATION AROSE THE PLAYERS WOULD KNOW BETTER THAN TO DO ANYTHING SHADY OR THEY WILL BEKICKED OUT OF THE TOURNEY AND NOT BE PAID A QUARTER............

IT WILL ONLY TAKE ONE TOURNAMENT AND ONE PRESCIDENT....IF THEY PLAYERS DO SOMETHING OUT OF LINE ...DON'T PAY THEM THEN NEXT TIME THEY WILL KNOW BETTER AND MAYBE JUST MAYBE SOMEDAY WE COULD ELIMINATE SAVERS AND CHOPPING AND ALL THE LITTLE SHADY THINGS THAT PLAYERS DO AND NEVER ARE PUNISHED FOR THEM...IT WILL ONLY TAKE ONE INCIDENT OF NOT PAYING THE PLAYERS FOR DOING SOMETHING SHADY AND NOBODY WILL EVER DO IT AGAIN BECAUSE THEY WILL BE SO AFRAID THAT THEY WONT GET PAID...............

AND SOMEDAY ARE SPORT COULD BE LOOKED UPON AS A RESPECTABLE GAME AND NOT A GAME OF CROOKS..............

This reminds me of an old story. Once upon a time in a practice room long ago, Earl was expounding on all that was wrong with Pool and how he would change it. This went on and on (I was present) for a long time. One of the players who was practicing nearby finally got fed up with Earl's pontificating. Kim Davenport looked at Earl and said "Who made you the GOD of Pool?"

This ended Earl's speech.