Old Man Cheated

Learning a valuable lesson...

I am sorry if i jumped the gun with my comment on this thread i am clearly against handicapped tournaments, and i let my past experiences cloud my judgment. I dont know anyone involved and ron nailed me to the walll with the proven guilty comment. Sorry to the td and the players involved.
I still hate handicapped tournaments ...
 
JB Cases said:
This is a very good reason that I have always had the policy that strangers start out with a high handicap unless their ability is known to be above the default handicap.

IF a stranger is ASKED what their ranking in league is and they say that they don't have one or otherwise fudge it then I either bar them or raise them to the highest handicap.

The fault here IMO lies with both parties, the player who allowed himself to be put in lower than he should and the TD who put him in lower than he should have been put in.

That said unless it was specifically stated at the beginning that handicaps could be revised at any time I wouldn't have raised him up.

I personally think you can't be that fluid, it's not fair to the people who got beat at the lower handicap. You have to have a policy and stick to it throughout the event.

My default would be if you can't PROVE your level to my satisfaction then you're going in at a high rating. If you want to continue in my events then your rating will settle to where it should be.

John - has run many successful handicapped tournaments.
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I agree with John on this one. I played in my first handicapped tournament last night and I was ranked at a higher level because I had no ranking to go off of before. I've never played in APA or BCA. We had to win a certain amount of games to win the match, based on your skill level.

There were a lot of non APA or BCA Players there that had never been ranked before. ALL of us started out as a 7.

A few of us should have been 8's or 9's and we told the TD this, but he said he would start us out at 7's. No one got ranked higher during the tournament or had to replay a match. We might next time we play in a handicapped tournament. This was a benefit tournament so it really didn't matter to me if I was a 7 or a 10.
 
Aten said:
lol handicapped tournaments
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I seen a post on FB that says it best. Pool is the only sport that punishes trying to achieve greatness.


The better you get does not mean the more likely to win, but the more you gotta give up. I have been playing since about the age of 8, and all through the years of practice, all I did was raise spots. The outlook of what are you gonna spot me, only produces laziness and an unwillingness for people to achieve better in the sport. Growing up, I took my beatings, I never asked for a spot...
But is just one of the many reasons the sport has not achived the greatness it deserves in the eyes of the general public.
 
gerard soriano said:
Stopped playing in tournaments years ago its either 2 am and your not yet in the money or the tour (director) makes more than the winner I would rather play with friends or shoot alone than give these assholes $100 to play in there tours
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My thoughts exactly!

I stopped doing what hurts. Kind of a 'Doh!' moment when one figures it out.

Jeff Livingston
 
I've been running tournaments for years and most are handicapped. You bump the player, but making some replay a match, never heard of and that's wrong IMO. If Megan were such a good TD, seems she never should have taken that guys word or at least watched him play the first few matches to guage what his real handicap was.

We have people come in all the time, "I'm a 4 in APA/TAP" and that usually translates to a 6 in our system. I usually split the difference and tell them right up front, "If your handicap is wrong, we will adjust during the tournament, so it could go up or down". I've never had a problem and never brought someone who was ELIMINATED from the tournament back to the bracket. Giving a player the option to replay a match or forfeit, based on your (TD) error, is wrong. As a TD, you have to suck it up and say "I made a mistake in letting this person play, he has been raised and we move on". Whatever the case, it still sounds as if there was some allegiance between Megan and the player that was already eliminated from the tourney. She was wrong, PERIOD.
 
I don't have a problem with raising a player in a handicapped tournament.

Making someone REPLAY a match they've already won is complete BS. You could at anytime during a tournament move someones handicap up and tell them to replay a match against a friend/boyfriend or even just someone you know and like more than the player you want to move up.

Also if anything, why would they REPLAY it instead of just racing to the new handicaps from where the last score ended? Very shady imo.

{flame shield activated}
 
This whole thing is shady on both sides of the fence. My opinion on handicapped tournaments goes something to the effect of, the guy that wins is usually under-ranked.

Replaying the match is BS in my opinion. you NEVER replay a match. All you did by doing that was screw over every player that was already beaten by "the old man" Not giving all the others a second chance like Gatlin got is BS regardless of you relation ship with him.

Under clocking a guy happens in EVERY handicapped tourny out there. Should've bumped the guy, and made him play the next. All of this would have been avoided. Poor judgement on both parties involved.

And now for the $1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 question, What's wrong with pool today???????????????


best,

Justin
 
Here's an idea:

Instead of always trying to fly under the radar in order to sneak in and win some local handicapped tournament, why not just be honest about your speed? When I show to a handicapped tourney for the first time and I'm asked how I play, I'll say "I play about even with so and so." Or "so and so gives me the 8 and it's a good game." Then I'll tell the TD that if they don't feel my handicap is right they can feel free to move me up or down accordingly and I won't have a problem with it.

Guess what doesn't happen when I do this? The earth doesn't open up and swallow me whole, neither does lightening come down and strike me dead. What does happen is I'm ALWAYS invited back! Every single time! Sometimes I even win on my first visit....imagine that. But then again, I'm not trying to feed my family off of a weekly 10 dollar entry fee, handicapped tournament. Maybe I'm just a sucker.
 
Just kick out the 73 yr. old

He misrepresented himself by not disclosing he played in a league.

No replay of match, just let Gatlin advance in the L bracket.
If you learned all this after Day 1 was over, I say you were being extra generous to allow him to continue to play.

BTW, my Mom might be able to win a 9- ball match with 3 on the wire and C7 & C8 in a race to 7. She has never picked up a cue. So I don't see where MBACTION should have been shocked.

.02 cents
 
I agree 100%. Admit the mistake in ranking, apologize to the loser, and move on. Also people have to realize that some people really do just have one of those comatose days where they shoot 4 spots better than they are ranked. It happens.

I have yet to see a poolplayer "over" rank himself...

JV

tank69 said:
I've been running tournaments for years and most are handicapped. You bump the player, but making some replay a match, never heard of and that's wrong IMO. If Megan were such a good TD, seems she never should have taken that guys word or at least watched him play the first few matches to guage what his real handicap was.

We have people come in all the time, "I'm a 4 in APA/TAP" and that usually translates to a 6 in our system. I usually split the difference and tell them right up front, "If your handicap is wrong, we will adjust during the tournament, so it could go up or down". I've never had a problem and never brought someone who was ELIMINATED from the tournament back to the bracket. Giving a player the option to replay a match or forfeit, based on your (TD) error, is wrong. As a TD, you have to suck it up and say "I made a mistake in letting this person play, he has been raised and we move on". Whatever the case, it still sounds as if there was some allegiance between Megan and the player that was already eliminated from the tourney. She was wrong, PERIOD.
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MBACTION said:
Hi, My name is Megan Royal, and I am the tournament director for the tournament that is being talked about in this post at Shore Thing Billiards.

I think that this is the prime example of typical pool player crying, and it is unfortunate that people that read this start off thinking it is truth as if it is coming from the horse's mouth and 100% honest.

The 73 year old man in question?!? He and his son-in-law represented his ability as total novice, during one of my weekly 9 ball tournaments. The exact date was February 1st, 2013. (I keep excellent records of when all players start playing in my tournaments, and why I ranked them the skill level they are) The man and his son-in-law told me that he didn't really play competitively at all, and didn't give me any league handicap for him. Ask any new player that enters Shore Thing Billiards for my tournaments and they will tell you that the first question I ask is "do you play any leagues?"

So, accepting the word of a player that had played in several events that I have played in, and respect (GSBT) I handicapped this unassuming older gentleman at a 3. He didn't advance to the paid out spots of the weekly tournament he participated in, so when he and his son-in-law showed up for my added $1,000 tournament, I entered him as a skill level 3. He lost his first match-up to a player that was a skill level 11 (this format hosted skill levels 1 thru 12). His second match was against another skill level 3. This opponent played in the mini-tournament the night before, and was a player that I knew their ACCURATE handicap from another in-house tournament format that I was familiar with and could equate to mine. He won this match, and it was not a close one. His next round match-up forfeited. So after advancing, (not my boyfriend) Gatlin loses to him. Racing to 7 with 3 games on the wire and the 7 & 8 called, the player in question wins by a big margin (7-3 not 7-5 as reported above). My first reaction was shock. I play in my format as a level 4, and I do not think I could beat Gatlin with that game, so I questioned the skill level of the older gentleman. The owner of STB is a BCA league operator and knew that the man played BCA. After pulling up the last sessions stats, I found out that his BCA handicap out of 10 was an 8. He was ranked in the top 10 of his league.

I NEVER would agree to play a BCA 8 as a 3 in my weekly tournament or our 2 day tournament.

The match in question was the final match of day 1, and by the time I had all the REAL information on the player in question, he had already left to go home. Unfortunately, I had no contact number or email for the gentleman so the only option I had was to inform Gatlin that he was going to replay his match the next day, as he was still in the poolroom.

I informed the player in question that he was going to replay his previous match at a higher skill level the following day, when he arrived. This is my policy, and I am not the only tournament director that plays the match over.

The gentleman said that he accepted his new skill level, and wasn't upset that he was going up in handicap, but he didn't agree with playing the previous match again.

However, the tournament directors' policies are what governs every tournament and mine include replaying matches at a different skill level when I believe the current one is unfair.

Thank you for reading all sides of the story before jumping to the conclusion that STB and myself are categorized with the other shady poolrooms, owners, and directors.

This weekend we paid out more cash that any other tournament with like entry fees I have ever heard of, only taking $5 greens fees, adding $1,000 guaranteed, and auctioning players twice at the full field and the final 24. With both auctions and tournament payout, 1st place stood to take home $2,700.

The winner was 78 years old.

Feel free to private message me, email me, or call me (since my contact information was already shared above) for the name of the gentleman so you all can see his true BCA handicap in person. (hard to deny)

Thank you, again.
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I believe that is a thorough post and covered all the basis. While different than most I play in (usually the player is adjusted for the next tournament, and some the next match), if it is stated to the players at the beginning of the tournament, that this is the way it is, than that works to. But obviously this thread is exactly why most tourneys don't do it this way I suppose. It opens up a can of worms (so to speak). So maybe, if it were me anyways, I would just make it a lot more clear in the future, in the players meeting, this is the way it is. We can never tell what will occur, but we can always learn from the results.
 
Can't believe after all the truth is out people still have the nerve to say she's "shady" or in the wrong.

Of COURSE you replay the match. If he was asked if he played in any leagues,
and conveniently 'forgot' he's a BCA 8, he flat out lied to get free games on the wire!
No way to prove it at this point, but if that's how it went down, giving him a second
chance way too generous, he should just be banned, and his opponents move up the ladder.

I don't understand this mindset... "oh well, too bad for the opponent, but the match was played, and the TD was too trusting"
...why is an already played match considered sacred and untouchable?
It's a local handicapped tournament, not the US Open.
 
MBACTION said:
Hi, My name is Megan Royal, and I am the tournament director for the tournament that is being talked about in this post at Shore Thing Billiards.

I think that this is the prime example of typical pool player crying, and it is unfortunate that people that read this start off thinking it is truth as if it is coming from the horse's mouth and 100% honest.

The 73 year old man in question?!? He and his son-in-law represented his ability as total novice, during one of my weekly 9 ball tournaments. The exact date was February 1st, 2013. (I keep excellent records of when all players start playing in my tournaments, and why I ranked them the skill level they are) The man and his son-in-law told me that he didn't really play competitively at all, and didn't give me any league handicap for him. Ask any new player that enters Shore Thing Billiards for my tournaments and they will tell you that the first question I ask is "do you play any leagues?"

So, accepting the word of a player that had played in several events that I have played in, and respect (GSBT) I handicapped this unassuming older gentleman at a 3. He didn't advance to the paid out spots of the weekly tournament he participated in, so when he and his son-in-law showed up for my added $1,000 tournament, I entered him as a skill level 3. He lost his first match-up to a player that was a skill level 11 (this format hosted skill levels 1 thru 12). His second match was against another skill level 3. This opponent played in the mini-tournament the night before, and was a player that I knew their ACCURATE handicap from another in-house tournament format that I was familiar with and could equate to mine. He won this match, and it was not a close one. His next round match-up forfeited. So after advancing, (not my boyfriend) Gatlin loses to him. Racing to 7 with 3 games on the wire and the 7 & 8 called, the player in question wins by a big margin (7-3 not 7-5 as reported above). My first reaction was shock. I play in my format as a level 4, and I do not think I could beat Gatlin with that game, so I questioned the skill level of the older gentleman. The owner of STB is a BCA league operator and knew that the man played BCA. After pulling up the last sessions stats, I found out that his BCA handicap out of 10 was an 8. He was ranked in the top 10 of his league.

I NEVER would agree to play a BCA 8 as a 3 in my weekly tournament or our 2 day tournament. The match in question was the final match of day 1, and by the time I had all the REAL information on the player in question, he had already left to go home. Unfortunately, I had no contact number or email for the gentleman so the only option I had was to inform Gatlin that he was going to replay his match the next day, as he was still in the poolroom.

I informed the player in question that he was going to replay his previous match at a higher skill level the following day, when he arrived. This is my policy, and I am not the only tournament director that plays the match over.

The gentleman said that he accepted his new skill level, and wasn't upset that he was going up in handicap, but he didn't agree with playing the previous match again.

However, the tournament directors' policies are what governs every tournament and mine include replaying matches at a different skill level when I believe the current one is unfair.

Thank you for reading all sides of the story before jumping to the conclusion that STB and myself are categorized with the other shady poolrooms, owners, and directors.

This weekend we paid out more cash that any other tournament with like entry fees I have ever heard of, only taking $5 greens fees, adding $1,000 guaranteed, and auctioning players twice at the full field and the final 24. With both auctions and tournament payout, 1st place stood to take home $2,700.

The winner was 78 years old.

Feel free to private message me, email me, or call me (since my contact information was already shared above) for the name of the gentleman so you all can see his true BCA handicap in person. (hard to deny)

Thank you, again.
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What I have highlighted in red does not make sense and can you please show everyone the link to the gentleman in question BCA league stats that you viewed--- so someone that is a BCA 8 (on a scale up to 10) is only ranked as a 4 in your handicap tournament (because this is what you raised the gentleman to) which has a scale up to 12. Shouldn't he at minimum been a 6 or higher???

To add as a general point to all of this -- One match victory or loss does not mean that a players handicap is out of wack. It also doesn't mean that a player's handicap is accurate or truthful either. I have beaten some very good players even but no one would handicap me even with them. I have read some on here saying that there is no way that a 3 ranked player could be a 9 ranked player and that is simply absurd. This is not to say if the player in question was or was not handicapped correctly but again just a general point to all of this.
 
I don't have a log in this fire. But I think it is wrong to replay a match for this reason.
The mistake was made of not getting his handicap correct from the start,,(whoevers fault that is)there is no going back and trying to punish him for it,,other than raising him up ,to where he belongs, as soon as it is realized.
Or just simply expelling him from tournament. Which causes problems also.

On the other hand,,its difficult to it all correct in a big tournament like this.

The TD has allot on their minds,,lots to do,,,and made a call. And that is the way it is. Had he been honest from the start,,this all would have been avoided.

It more than likely a good learning experience for the TD. And probably a good idea it was brought up. But the OP should have went about this in a different manner. Not so aggressive.
My 2 cents.
 
Megan that is BS. Brent has known the old man for years and a half blind 4
He only played in the BCA part of a session and that handicap of an 8 is a joke. Everyone at the room including Gatlin has known him for years
Can he play????? If the stars line up right
Why replay Gatlin?
 
sk8ordie said:
Gatlin, a 9 was put out by your Father in law, a 3 supposed to be a 4 as you clearly state and no one stated that when he signed up! He beat a 9 by a score of 7-3 not hill-hill.
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Gatlin was drunk and couldn't get out. What was the score when she raised him to a 5 against a sober Gatlin
He won 1 game
 
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