one hole, shooting vs moving and is efren that good?

E

enzo

Banned
i may have even posted this before, but i just rewatched the efren/paguylayan and efren/miller from the derby city one pocket in 2006 (i think it was 2006).

ok, efren's offense was seriously astounding. BUT, incardona (i think he posts here nowadays, right) commenting that paguylayan was playing great as well, this i really have a problem with. when pag shot that scratch shot when he could have shot the 5 into the 8 was a TOTAL joke of a shot. a guy that has been playing one hole for a month and has no talent would see the 5 into the 8 was a much better shot. pag got tunnel vision like he HAD to be behind the 8 and it was a huge and very stupid error. he was NOT playing great esp after that shot if you ask me, you cant shoot that shot and be playing great at the same time. i just saw it as put a good mover in both those matches and efren wont be getting shots to run out.

miller left him strait in banks ever time he left the table, and he was in NO trouble.

the thing is, i dont understand why pag and miller were in the final and semi the way they played in those two matches. i guess excecution and banking really mean a lot? where are the movers?? does shooting mean that much nowadays?

i guess what im getting at is i would love to see a great great mover (say artie) up against efren. im sure efren will still win but not a race to 3 he wont win in 10 minutes. i thought the play of those other guys was embarrasingly bad, esp considering they were in the final/semi. so, my opnion is efrens offense and his overall play was AMAZING, yet i feel his competition did shoot and think VERY weak thus making efren look even better. for god's sake, i saw pag shaking his head in disbelief when efren shot a nice kick hitting a ball near his hole and then putting the cb in the stack...... you dont shake your head in disbelief in awe of your opponent in the middle of competition!!!!!! smart, head strong pro athletes just dont do that!!!! sorry but its true. if either of those guys had their heads screwed on strait and played all out, get a roll or two and they have a GREAT chance to win a racwe to 3, believe me.... i've see tang beat efren at times.
 
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watch again

The commentators acknowledge a mistake or two on Alex's part but overall he played very strong. One thing to consider is that he had just lost another match to Efren and knew that Efren was in an unbelievable zone at the moment. Desperate times do call for desperate tactics. If I were ever to play Efren one pocket I would go all out to make a ball on the break. That is the only way I have a slim chance of beating him a game. That isn't the way I would normally play though.

Hu


enzo said:
i may have even posted this before, but i just rewatched the efren/paguylayan and efren/miller from the derby city one pocket in 2006 (i think it was 2006).

ok, efren's offense was seriously astounding. BUT, incardona (i think he posts here nowadays, right) commenting that paguylayan was playing great as well, this i really have a problem with. when pag shot that scratch shot when he could have shot the 5 into the 8 was a TOTAL joke of a shot. a guy that has been playing one hole for a month and has no talent would see the 5 into the 8 was a much better shot. pag got tunnel vision like he HAD to be behind the 8 and it was a huge and very stupid error. he was NOT playing great esp after that shot if you ask me, you cant shoot that shot and be playing great at the same time. i just saw it as put a good mover in both those matches and efren wont be getting shots to run out.

miller left him strait in banks ever time he left the table, and he was in NO trouble.

the thing is, i dont understand why pag and miller were in the final and semi the way they played in those two matches. i guess excecution and banking really mean a lot? where are the movers?? does shooting mean that much nowadays?

i guess what im getting at is i would love to see a great great mover (say artie) up against efren. im sure efren will still win but not a race to 3 he wont win in 10 minutes. i thought the play of those other guys was embarrasingly bad, esp considering they were in the final/semi. so, my opnion is efrens offense and his overall play was AMAZING, yet i feel his competition did shoot and think VERY weak thus making efren look even better. for god's sake, i saw pag shaking his head in disbelief when efren shot a nice kick hitting a ball near his hole and then putting the cb in the stack...... you dont shake your head in disbelief in awe of your opponent in the middle of competition!!!!!! smart, head strong pro athletes just dont do that!!!! sorry but its true. if either of those guys had their heads screwed on strait and played all out, get a roll or two and they have a GREAT chance to win a racwe to 3, believe me.... i've see tang beat efren at times.
Click to expand...
 
enzo said:
i may have even posted this before, but i just rewatched the efren/paguylayan and efren/miller from the derby city one pocket in 2006 (i think it was 2006).

ok, efren's offense was seriously astounding. BUT, incardona (i think he posts here nowadays, right) commenting that paguylayan was playing great as well, this i really have a problem with. when pag shot that scratch shot when he could have shot the 5 into the 8 was a TOTAL joke of a shot. a guy that has been playing one hole for a month and has no talent would see the 5 into the 8 was a much better shot. pag got tunnel vision like he HAD to be behind the 8 and it was a huge and very stupid error. he was NOT playing great esp after that shot if you ask me, you cant shoot that shot and be playing great at the same time. i just saw it as put a good mover in both those matches and efren wont be getting shots to run out.

miller left him strait in banks ever time he left the table, and he was in NO trouble.

the thing is, i dont understand why pag and miller were in the final and semi the way they played in those two matches. i guess excecution and banking really mean a lot? where are the movers?? does shooting mean that much nowadays?

i guess what im getting at is i would love to see a great great mover (say artie) up against efren. im sure efren will still win but not a race to 3 he wont win in 10 minutes. i thought the play of those other guys was embarrasingly bad, esp considering they were in the final/semi. so, my opnion is efrens offense and his overall play was AMAZING, yet i feel his competition did shoot and think VERY weak thus making efren look even better. for god's sake, i saw pag shaking his head in disbelief when efren shot a nice kick hitting a ball near his hole and then putting the cb in the stack...... you dont shake your head in disbelief in awe of your opponent in the middle of competition!!!!!! smart, head strong pro athletes just dont do that!!!! sorry but its true. if either of those guys had their heads screwed on strait and played all out, get a roll or two and they have a GREAT chance to win a racwe to 3, believe me.... i've see tang beat efren at times.
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enzo..........First of all, it's a known fact in the pool world and on the tournament circuit that there have been tons of instances over the years of top players faltering when they play Efren....the other pro players even have a name for it - they semi-jokingly call it " the Efren factor"....that's what you witnessed in those matches that you watched.....

Now, if you want to see a match where that doesn't happen, I'll steer you to a match where, on the contrary, particularly for the first 3 or 4 games, Efren is completely controlled, out-moved, out-managed, and outplayed - very interesting to watch. The many time U.S. champion who does this to Efren is Nick Varner, and the dvd is >>> Reyes vs. Varner 1999 Derby City Semi-finals. I don't know if accustats has it available or not.

- Ghost
 
Didn't Gabe Owen beat Efren this year for the title?

I guess sometimes even top levels pros feel the jitters when up against someone that is considered to be at the very top.

You asked about how it would be if Efren played a mover rather than an offensive shotmaker who gives up shots.

I watched Efren dismantle Cliff Joyner one year in action matches. Efren gave Cliff 8:7 and matched him move for move for move and eventually out moved and out shot Cliff. A few of the games took over an hour. And it seemed like hours before anyone made a ball.

You are right though, IF you let him freewheel then he looks great. But even when he is up against a mover he is still Efren and comes with things that aren't from this world. He looks great because he is.
 
JB Cases said:
Didn't Gabe Owen beat Efren this year for the title?

I guess sometimes even top levels pros feel the jitters when up against someone that is considered to be at the very top.

You asked about how it would be if Efren played a mover rather than an offensive shotmaker who gives up shots.

I watched Efren dismantle Cliff Joyner one year in action matches. Efren gave Cliff 8:7 and matched him move for move for move and eventually out moved and out shot Cliff. A few of the games took over an hour. And it seemed like hours before anyone made a ball.

You are right though, IF you let him freewheel then he looks great. But even when he is up against a mover he is still Efren and comes with things that aren't from this world. He looks great because he is.
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I'm pretty sure Gabe beat Larry Nevel in the finals (Gabe beat Efren in the semis), and they both played great. I also am fairly sure Pagulayan avenged his loss to Efren with a big "W" last year. If you think those guys can't move, you're mistaken.

Efren just wasn't running out the way Efren can, and it killed him. But, 5 out of 6 ain't bad.
 
When the commentators said that pagulayan was playing great, they meant throughout the tournament. he was, after all, in the finals (or was it semis?) against efren. that shot you mentioned was probably a lapse in judgment on his part, maybe because efren's been kicking his ass and not giving him easy shots, and pagulayan was smiling because efren, being efren, was being so nice about it. :)
 
think it was the semi's

I think it was the semi's. The commentators mentioned that Pag had just taken a whipping from Efren to move over to the losers bracket too or have to use his buy back as I think it works at the DCC. I think Alex being Alex was mostly laughing at the sheer ridiculousness of not being able to even attempt an offensive shot. Even to play defense was taking a hero move almost every shot.

The final with Jason Miller was on the same tape if I remember correctly. Jason was guaranteed to win the all around and an extra $20K if I remember right and still looked like a school kid stepping forward to take a spanking. His expression said he was beat before he picked up his stick and he went to desperation shots from the jump.

The way Efren was playing, at least by the time he reached the semi's and the accu-stat video I have of it, redefined what was possible on a pool table for me. The last time that had happened was about forty years before when I saw Willie Mosconi on a good day.

Hu






Renegade said:
When the commentators said that pagulayan was playing great, they meant throughout the tournament. he was, after all, in the finals (or was it semis?) against efren. that shot you mentioned was probably a lapse in judgment on his part, maybe because efren's been kicking his ass and not giving him easy shots, and pagulayan was smiling because efren, being efren, was being so nice about it. :)
Click to expand...
 
enzo said:
i may have even posted this before, but i just rewatched the efren/paguylayan and efren/miller from the derby city one pocket in 2006 (i think it was 2006).

ok, efren's offense was seriously astounding. BUT, incardona (i think he posts here nowadays, right) commenting that paguylayan was playing great as well, this i really have a problem with. when pag shot that scratch shot when he could have shot the 5 into the 8 was a TOTAL joke of a shot. a guy that has been playing one hole for a month and has no talent would see the 5 into the 8 was a much better shot. pag got tunnel vision like he HAD to be behind the 8 and it was a huge and very stupid error. he was NOT playing great esp after that shot if you ask me, you cant shoot that shot and be playing great at the same time. i just saw it as put a good mover in both those matches and efren wont be getting shots to run out.

miller left him strait in banks ever time he left the table, and he was in NO trouble.

the thing is, i dont understand why pag and miller were in the final and semi the way they played in those two matches. i guess excecution and banking really mean a lot? where are the movers?? does shooting mean that much nowadays?

i guess what im getting at is i would love to see a great great mover (say artie) up against efren. im sure efren will still win but not a race to 3 he wont win in 10 minutes. i thought the play of those other guys was embarrasingly bad, esp considering they were in the final/semi. so, my opnion is efrens offense and his overall play was AMAZING, yet i feel his competition did shoot and think VERY weak thus making efren look even better. for god's sake, i saw pag shaking his head in disbelief when efren shot a nice kick hitting a ball near his hole and then putting the cb in the stack...... you dont shake your head in disbelief in awe of your opponent in the middle of competition!!!!!! smart, head strong pro athletes just dont do that!!!! sorry but its true. if either of those guys had their heads screwed on strait and played all out, get a roll or two and they have a GREAT chance to win a racwe to 3, believe me.... i've see tang beat efren at times.
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It's a 400 player tournament and Efren has won it 5 times in 6 tries. I don't think it's an accident.

If you watch the '07 Derby City one pocket finals with Efren and Cliff, Efren beats him by out moving him.
 
One of the funniest pool comments I've heard was uttered by Shawn Putnam at DCC a year or two ago.

He had just beaten Efren in their one-pocket match; at hill-hill Shawn took a low percentage bank shot that opened up the whole table for him (he made it ; but would have sold out the game had he missed it). After the match, Billy Incardona came up to Shawn and gave him all the reasons why that shot was all-wrong - listing all the alternative safer and "smarter" shots. They haggled back and forth for a bit, when Shawn just got disgusted with Billy's view, and said, "hey, I wasn't playing Joe Sausage there; if I have a chance to win I'm taking it." End of dispute.

What is bad strategy against the average player, might be good strategy against Efren.
 
On the same note, I read somewhere that Alex P. took a very high risk shot to win against Efren this year. When you know you can't outmove someone, sometimes you have to go for the win.
 
alstl said:
It's a 400 player tournament and Efren has won it 5 times in 6 tries. I don't think it's an accident.

If you watch the '07 Derby City one pocket finals with Efren and Cliff, Efren beats him by out moving him.
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And on top of that it's races to 3 which are harder for top players to fade.

As in the longer the race the less chance that lesser players have to win.

Enzo's point is still valid though. A lot of players just wilt when they play someone of Efren's stature. So even though it's a 400 man field and races to 3 - an awful lot of those players aren't qualified to rack for Efren much less play him (including myself in this group), and most are there just to get the player's pass. Still there is enough top talent that Efren doesn't HAVE to win so often - but he did and that proves he deserved it. He can move with the best of them and shoot with the best of them and in fact, he is the best of them.
 
I saw both matches between Alex and Efren that year and while I don't remember every shot, I do remember that at times Alex did play lights out and still got owned.
 
I apologize for not remembering the year, somebody else here probably does, but there was a DCC 1p match a few years back between Buddy Hall and Efren. I think this may be the video of the match:

http://marketplace.azbilliards.com/store/product.php?productid=16976&cat=308&bestseller

I won't call it a great match, because IIRC Efren won in a shutout, but I found it to be a very interesting match because Buddy outmoved Efren in that match to the point that he beat Efren to the shot in every single rack. Employing his superhuman cueball control and showing loads of patience, Buddy started super strong in each rack, reversing every trap Efren put him in and just generally making Efren hate it. In each rack, Efren was the first to falter, leaving Buddy very manageable shots with sufficient loose balls to make one think that a great player like Buddy could easily be eight-and-out from there. Each time, though, Buddy either failed to make the ball or to gain position and his runs all ended prematurely, usually with a sellout. If Buddy had been able to come with the offense to match his defense, the score could have very easily been 3-0 the other direction in that match.

Good rolls,

Aaron
 
I have played a couple of sets with Efren, and the few sets I have won has always been as a result of me trying some wild shots. Not that I am a good player, but my thoughts when I have played him have been to be "trigger happy" and go for it if he finally gives you a hope of making a ball.

I can understand that the top players thinks like that too.
 
JB Cases said:
You are right though, IF you let him freewheel then he looks great. But even when he is up against a mover he is still Efren and comes with things that aren't from this world. He looks great because he is.
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i think this is right on, nice post. and part of my point, why would there not be good movers and shooters (like efren is) in the finals of a big one pocket tournamnet.

i havn't seen pag play much, and maybe im being way too harsh for judging him on one shot, but the 5 into the 8 was really a no brainer over what he shot.... but yes of course he can move, yet not on that occasion he couldnt.

but, all that aside, take any sport that the second best REALLY wants to get there and be the best -- tennis and federed vs nadal is a good example right now -- you'll NEVER see nadal shaking his head in awe of federer after he makes a great shot on him. he knows this isn't how you get to number one, and lok what has been happening. maybe the lack of coaching on the pool tour has to do with this, i dont know, but these guys handle themesleves like amatuers if you ask me, you dont give your opponent any indication that you think hes god or you cant beat him if you actually want to win -- there is really no arguing that (now if you want an excuse to lose, that is another story, AND THIS REALLY IS THE CRUX OF MY POINT if you follow me, ie he's in awe BECAUSE he wants an excuse). but that's just how i saw pags reactions, maybe others feel he was acting different. i swaer though i saw him shake his head after efren shot a kick like to say "he's just so amazing what can i do?" all im saying, just deal with the shot you have, dont sway all the confidence to your opponents side..... 90% of communication is through body language!!!
 
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just to end this, people mentioned cliff.... this is a perfect example to make my point.... i really believe if cliff was as mentally strong as possible and played his game and gave 100% on every shot he'd have a great chance to beat efren. thats it though, hed just have a good chance.... and my point again is these guy have no chance because they dont give it their all and are in awe of him..... you have no chance that way.

i have only a couple accustats where efren gets beat. shannon beats him and buddy beats him at the same tournament. funny thing is, besides playing good and both not being in awe of him, i cant put my finger on anything else they did to win these matches. i guess im right again, haha, just kidding.
 
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