One pocket shot what do you do?

[Eddie Robin]

"YOU are the one that started this shenanagins, not me."

Time of post: Friday, May 29, 9:40 a.m.

YOU are the one that started this shenanagins, not me. I made a post, that I later clarified and corrected. But, because I corrected it, you felt some sick need to try and denigrate me. You are very wrong in thinking that I am ashamed of anything I posted, or trying to hide, ect. I warned you that this forum can be tough, which you blasted me for also, then you feel the need to blast others for saying you were wrong. Now, you just won't let this thread die, twisting things to try and make yourself look better. (as per the above quotes) I think you are the one that is embarrased, I'm sure not.

Thread: Power draw shots and dropping the elbow
Post #: 45
Time of post: Friday, May 29, 9:40 a.m.
Originally Posted by Eddie Robin

...
Another thing; how many of you guys are learning about strategy in one-pocket yet have never run 50 in 14.1? How many can't even average 75% on spot-shots on the tables you play on? How many have learned trig before long division? Or how many could possibly think about swimming the English Channel before making across a wide river with current? Got my point?...
Eddie R

Neil's Response
I bet you never stated that in your one pocket book, did you? "Don't buy this book until you can run 50 in 14.1, and can make better than 75% of your spot shots." I have never bought your book, and now I never will. So far, all you have offered this forum is a willingness to argue. We have enough of those types already. And, to get down on all the other instructors like you have is the height of arrogance. Makes one want to put you on ignore know matter what info you have. Whatever info you do have is had by many, so why put up with your attitude?

Though I don't see how I have actually ever "attacked" you, from a review of the above response I'd think, as per your very own words, "YOU are the one that started this shenanagins, not me."

Truly sorry that I've failed to somehow make this at least a bit easier for you as well as your friends and other watchers (I really, really tried); possibly an earlier posting of the above attack-like quote of yours would have resulted in a somewhat shorter and less painful period. I've actually been restraining myself as much as i could at every turn which, by so doing, resulted in the truth emerging far too slowly making this "sqabble" that much more difficult to control. For that I must take some responsibility.

Understand I don't believe you deserve to have the last word on this subject. Can we end this BS now?

For ever straighter shooting,

Eddie Robin

 

[1 Pocket Ghost]

?

Hi again Ghost,

I see that you too have mentioned how a possible scratch off the 13-ball would be a disaster. That begs a couple of questions;

1. Have you since rolled the 13 towards the pocket at make speed to find there was no such scratch possible?

for a better game,

Eddie Robin

Eddie........I'm not sure what you are saying....Are you saying that there will be no scratch providing the 13 ball is cut thin enough to pocket it, or nearly pocket it ? - Or are you saying that one couldn't scratch off the 13 no matter how erroneously full it was struck ?

- Ghost

 

[wincardona]

a fair tradeoff

Hi again Ghost,

i must have somehow skipped over this post in the past but, in reviewing posts in effort to better understand what has happened here with Neil, I see that you too have mentioned how a possible scratch off the 13-ball would be a disaster. That begs a couple of questions;

1. Have you since rolled the 13 towards the pocket at make speed to find there was no such scratch possible?

2. Was this the first mention of the "disastious scratch"? I wonder if this is what put Neil on his original "disaster scratch" viewpoint.

Members should take some responsibility for what they post for others may not realize the wrongnesses as easily as top players. Hope you see my point. Please test shots out first if not fully confident of the result. Others may be learning from you.

for a better game,

Eddie Robin

PS: Were you the one at Howard & Paulina that knew the wealthy glass guy (Glazier?) who hung up there with Bill Romain? I'd love to connect up to him for he could help authenticate a very interesting and memorable road-trip from way back when. It involved a stop off at Don Willis Room on way across to Ames' Billiards in NYC. With all the baloney being put out there nowadays, gotta try to get as many "witnesses" as possible to support stories in my intended forthcoming books.

Send me email at er89121@aol.com should you recall witnessing the time beat a guy who finally lost his book or $2 bills; if you were there, please don't "spill the beans" as yet for that one is in the last of the 3-book series on one-pocket. Keep it quiet and I'll reward ya with a comp copy of the book in which it will be found. That must be where I put the Ed Taylor betting-on-2-rail-banks story.

Eddie, Bill Incardona here. Have you ever heard the song "It's Tough Out Here For A Pimp" Well, I think your too logical for chat rooms. Meaning that you are going to get a lot of resistance by the same people that yearn for your knowledge. I personally feel that debating with you on anything pool related is an opportunity that no one should pass up, if they want to develope a better understanding of the game. Just remember guy's, he's not heavy, he's my teacher. :grin-loving::grin-loving:

 

[wincardona]

Eddie........I'm not sure what you are saying....Are you saying that there will be no scratch providing the 13 ball is cut thin enough to pocket it, or nearly pocket it ? - Or are you saying that one couldn't scratch off the 13 no matter how erroneously full it was struck ?

- Ghost

Bruce, I think he's trying to say, if you play that bad to scratch your not ready for lessons on which shot is correct, and why.

If you hit this shot with make speed and scratch, you're probably banking it. :sorry::sorry:

 

[Eddie Robin]

you had just spanked one of the Chicago players for the dough

Glad to see you posting on here!! (doc from chicago, bought your books and talked on the phone with you till my battery died!) Sorry to see this turning into a fracas. I'll keep looking for you in other threads, Scott

Hey Scott,

Found references re you in my notes. Seems you played a real good game yourself! Yup; we talked quite a bit. Think your phone ran out of juice, you had just spanked one of the Chicago players for the dough, and I managed to get in the parts about tournaments I'd won in Milwaukee back then, and ...

Now I should be able to find your number. I'll leave this post here so you can enjoy it on your next visit to ABZ and have additional notoriety from being a part of the "big fracas on AZBs."

Was certainly nice to hear from you again,
Eddie Robin

 

[poolplayer2093]

Bruce, I think he's trying to say, if you play that bad to scratch your not ready for lessons on which shot is correct, and why.

If you hit this shot with make speed and scratch, you're probably banking it. :sorry::sorry:

Ooooh..... i guess he told you

 

[1on1pooltournys]

There's no way in hell you could bank the 13 like that and have the cb end up where you show it in the cuetable. i'm actually not 100% sure that bank can be made. you have to hit the 13 way too hard and too thin to have so little cb movement

CueTable Help

Of course the CB ending up nutted behind the four is not real likely. However, you can control this bank easier than you are eluding to. There is, a way in hell, that you can hit the 13 with low right and come two out of your hole short and end up near the corner or the 4 ball. It probably is not the ideal shot here, as I was just showing another option. It is an option and it is very possible. I have seen many top players shoot these shots playing 1 pocket.

EDIT: After looking at it again, I think it is much easier to control the CB shooting the bank than cutting the 13 toward your right like some posters have suggested. Also, the extreme low right allows you to make a fuller hit on the 13 which will help control whitey.

 

[1 Pocket Ghost]

Ooooh..... i guess he told you

No, you're reading it wrong....Billy knows my game well - he's not referring to me.

 

[AJO]

I would like to clarify something I wrote in an earlier post in this thread, as I feel it has been misunderstood. And, admittedly, I now see why what I wrote might require further explanation.

Here is what I said:

I've known Eddie for a while now and have personal experience in pool instruction with him. Eddie can come off a little harsh sometimes, even egotistical. But, if a person is willing to let go of preconceived ideas and things they've been taught in the past (which may be inaccurate), much can be learned from him.

Here is how it was interpreted by one poster:

Eddie, one of the requirements of a good teacher is communication. You may have the knowledge, but that is only a part of helping others. Even one that has recieved lessons from you said that you are harsh. And, I think he was trying to be kind. So, what kind of teacher does that make you?

I said Eddie can come off a little harsh sometimes. When I used the word harsh, I meant he can easily come off as seeming to be that way. I've gotten to know Eddie fairly well from his helping me over the phone with pool, and for the record, I do not feel he is harsh. What I do feel is that he is uncompromising in what he feels is right, as well as very direct and precise in the way he communicates.

The qualities of being uncompromising, direct, and precise are the same qualities that can make him seem harsh. He does not sugar-coat things and he means what he says, especially in regard to anything billiard related. This can take some getting used to, as it differs from how many people communicate.

It hasn't been brought up, but I will also clarify why I said he can come off as egotistical. Until you have worked with Eddie and start to believe for yourself that he really does know far more than most about pool and billiards, it can seem as if he's egotistical. Why? Because he will point out in no uncertain terms the things you may have learned wrong in the past. It can be hard for people to admit they are wrong, especially if they've believed something for a long time. So, one may instead tell themselves he's just egotistical, and that he just wants everything done “his way or the highway.”

But after working with Eddie, in my experience, he has always been right about pool and billiard technique. And, when he isn't certain about something, he says so.

Amber

 

[Eddie Robin]

Eddie, Bill Incardona here. Have you ever heard the song "It's Tough Out Here For A Pimp" Well, I think your too logical for chat rooms. Meaning that you are going to get a lot of resistance by the same people that yearn for your knowledge. I personally feel that debating with you on anything pool related is an opportunity that no one should pass up, if they want to develope a better understanding of the game. Just remember guy's, he's not heavy, he's my teacher. :grin-loving::grin-loving:

BILLY INCARDONA!?!? You could have knocked me over with a feather...after all this time you pop up like the Royal Canadian Mounties just before they could lynch me. Appreciate your vote of such extreme confidence! I know you've always been a fan of Efren's; was it Neil's mention of Efren in today's 12:00 post that caused you to finally show up, just when things were getting really tough?

Anyway, decided to finally learn how get around this AZB Forum and I'm finally getting the hang of it. Now I've gotta work on how to "can't we just get along" with these guys. They've been beating up on a fragile old man just because he happens to be getting a bit senile.

Thanks again,
Eddie R

 

[Eddie Robin]

I'm that way when I think the situation calls for it

I would like to clarify something I wrote in an earlier post in this thread, as I feel it has been misunderstood. And, admittedly, I now see why what I wrote might require further explanation.

Here is what I said:


Here is how it was interpreted by one poster:


I said Eddie can come off a little harsh sometimes. When I used the word harsh, I meant he can easily come off as seeming to be that way. I've gotten to know Eddie fairly well from his helping me over the phone with pool, and for the record, I do not feel he is harsh. What I do feel is that he is uncompromising in what he feels is right, as well as very direct and precise in the way he communicates.

The qualities of being uncompromising, direct, and precise are the same qualities that can make him seem harsh. He does not sugar-coat things and he means what he says, especially in regard to anything billiard related. This can take some getting used to, as it differs from how many people communicate.

It hasn't been brought up, but I will also clarify why I said he can come off as egotistical. Until you have worked with Eddie and start to believe for yourself that he really does know far more than most about pool and billiards, it can seem as if he's egotistical. Why? Because he will point out in no uncertain terms the things you may have learned wrong in the past. It can be hard for people to admit they are wrong, especially if they've believed something for a long time. So, one may instead tell themselves he's just egotistical, and that he just wants everything done “his way or the highway.”

But after working with Eddie, in my experience, he has always been right about pool and billiard technique. And, when he isn't certain about something, he says so.

Amber

Hi again Amber,

Just realized I'd seen your earlier quote and forgot to thank you! Your first quote re me was really and truly fine with me--harsh, stern, tough, but you know, I'm that way when I think the situation calls for it. And only time will tell if I was wrong about why, "the train left (the you know what).

Thanks for butting in here with your explanation of how really mean I can be (just a bit of humor).

That's it for now; these posts have worn me out!

Eddie Robin

 

[pvc lou]

forget it

john,
I very strongly disagree with your opinion and hope you look at this situation again for you may then change your mind. As AZBilliards members we should take some responsibility for our fellow members and care about posts that damage the chances of many others to learn and improve their play. That should be what this is all about. We should want to help other members improve their level of play with suggestions, advice, and yes, even corrections.
QUOTE]

But Eddie, who cares? The more you fuss about it, the messier it gets. Trying to get Neil and his side to get the point is like trying to get the pee out of a swimming pool. The issue has been increasingly muddled for almost two days since this started, and i for one, dont give a shit if Neil refuses to concede the point even though i personally think he's acting like a total hardon.

I'm checking the forum everyday hoping to find something new to learn about pool , not to catch up on dramatics.

Taking responsibility for everyone on AZbilliards is impossible and, more importantly, not worth it. You cannot and should not be responsible for another man's conception of the truth. Thinking is an act that one does for himself, and only for himself. If you want to help, show us the guideposts that you know. I want to know what you know. Leave the knuckle heads alone, and show me and creedo and 1 pocketghost.., and the other, more silent members, who are listening and learning.

 

[poolplayer2093]

CueTable Help

Of course the CB ending up nutted behind the four is not real likely. However, you can control this bank easier than you are eluding to. There is, a way in hell, that you can hit the 13 with low right and come two out of your hole short and end up near the corner or the 4 ball. It probably is not the ideal shot here, as I was just showing another option. It is an option and it is very possible. I have seen many top players shoot these shots playing 1 pocket.

EDIT: After looking at it again, I think it is much easier to control the CB shooting the bank than cutting the 13 toward your right like some posters have suggested. Also, the extreme low right allows you to make a fuller hit on the 13 which will help control whitey.

just because you did it on the site doesn't make it possible. you may be able to bank the ball near your pocket. but to the pocket with that much control isn't possible.

the shot you diagramed won't go with any respectable amount or consistency. the cut on the 13 or the bank on the 4 is a higher % shot

 

[Eddie Robin]

Finally got it. WinCardona is The BILLY INCARDONA

Ooooh..... i guess he told you

Sorry for the way I've worded the scratch possibility in the past. Actually didn't realize that until just now believe it or not! My screwup. Sure you can scratch. If fairly accurate shooter you would have to use a bit of draw. Try the shot ten times and see if you do scratch once or twice. Not actually that easy to do if ya shoot fairly straight and soft enough to leave object ball by pocket should ya miss.

Many really straight shooters that I've known wouldn't have looked twice at the 2-cushion bank because of the score. They probably would have bet on making the cut-shot 75 or 80% of the time if they had to, whereas those same super straight-shooters may not have taken even-money on their first couple of tries at the two-cushion bank. Of course pocket size has a lot to do with these things.

I was not one of those very straight shooters and happened to excel at multi-cushion banks and so I would have taken a serious look at the 2-cushion bank despite the score. Quit pool in 1965 and it wasn't until many years later upon getting back to 3-cushion that I was finally able to learn why my stroke was not previously sufficiently accurate in direction.

One-pocket is not a game for average players. My personal opinion as I've explained it in the past and in my books, is that if ya can't shoot straight you should attempt to improve in another game such as 14.1 for one-pocket, being such a strategic game, tends to distract players from their fundamentals; not at pro levels of course. I think the world of the one-pocket game, I've always loved that game, so don't think I'm trying to decrease its popularity when I write as to how most people playing one-pocket shouldn't; they are not properly prepared to play that game.

Gotta hit the sack; just got up to see some very nice quotes near end of this thread.

Eddie Robin

 

[Neil]

...............

 

[Eddie Robin]

Still quite full of arrogance, for whatever it was worth, Eddie Robin

What set me off was your statement that everybody on here has been learning from people that aren't even qualified to teach fundamentals because they don't know them, depsite what credentials they have. I, and a number of others, took that quite offensively. Like "I'm here now, don't pay attention to what anyone but me has to say. I'm here to save you all from all the misinformation that you have all been recieving." Taken that way, that is a pretty arrogant statement.

Some just refuse to learn!

I believe you are referring to one in which I mentioned some of the baloney that has been fed to a great many such as rear leg straight or locked, vertical forearm upon or near contact, cuestick under dominant eye, preparatory stroke a specific number of times then shoot, stop-ball position play, the stroke should be like when throwing a ball, can’t recall all the nonsense out there.

I’ll provide a bit more understanding on the above and will then back off and get back to my books for the billiard world needs fundamentals really, really bad. There’s more than enough out there on one-pocket strategy from what’s in those books that has been taken from them and seen elsewhere and what others have contributed in magazines and on forums is more than enough for now.

Straighten leg tenses muscles: I’ve known since my basic training in the US Army when they taught us to keep our legs ever so slightly bent when at attention so as to maintain good circulation; I’ll take that a bit further by explaining how a person’s ability of attention will lessen to the degree he has tensed muscles. Try watching TV or listening to someone’s explanation while keeping any muscle in your body tense; you’ll hopefully notice how much of your attention will be distracted to your tensed muscles while doing such things. Now notice how the muscles above your knees tense up as leg gets close to locking or fully locked as was taught in snooker for a great many years. Both knees should be bent equally! Now please don’t bend them to the point that your bone structure no longer carries your body weight for then the muscles have to get back into action to do so. Guess I’ve just gone against quite a few instructors over the last 100 years from this one point alone. Got an old photo of Greenleaf in the old “stork stance”; that was the forerunner of what they are using today with the rear “anchor” leg. All nonsense! Almost always be evenly balanced for greater relaxation throughout entire body. Yes, yes, yes, there are reasons to sometimes have weight more on one foot than another. Yes, yes, yes, there are reasons to keep one’s feet closer together or further apart depending on the shot at hand. There is simply a ton to be learned about fundamentals that’s just not out there!

This will all take far too much time and space so I’ll shorten things up a bit more like an outline, besides I really can’t afford this kind of time.

Forearm, because of how it gets stronger as it nears vertical position and weaker as it continues past vertical should normally be behind vertical when more force is required and normally more forward of vertical when less force is required. There is soooo much more to know about this.

Cuestick under dominant eye requires so much explanation that I can simply say that the cuestick will naturally find itself in the right position for the individual. You want to really screw up students? Just force their cuestick under one eye or the other as was done over past ten years by most schools that should know better. Not so easily explained is that we really don’t actually see with our eyes, it only seems that way; yes, sometimes we are actually seeing through them but sometimes we might not be doing either!!! No, please don’t go crazy on that one in particular. I know it goes against all the authorities and experts re eyesight and much that we have taken for granted; so what! If you don’t learn more about that subject on your own you’ll eventually read more about that in a future book on fundamentals—if I live that long.

Oh yes; preparatory stroke a specific number of times for purposes of rhythm. Have you not noticed that you are sometimes ready to pull the trigger after the second preparatory stroke and sometimes not until after the fourth? Why make yourself hit the ball just before being fully ready or just after that point of full readiness? Sure there is more to be learned on that as well.

Next up there is stop-ball position play in 14.1. Don’t know how many of you may have subscribed to that one. It was the only one of the several position-play methods that was shown in Mosconi’s book and, in addition to the re running balls in areas, it has dominated the minds of most 14.1 players. Both methods INFERIOR! When was the last time you could see five or six balls that could be made with stop-ball position play? I’m not going to be picky here; I’m including letting the cueball move 2 or 3 inches in any direction with each shot. Now realize that you are losing rhythm just standing there looking for those opportunities, and that when you do see such situations, I’ll lay ya a dollar to a donut (old expression I guess) that there are reasons why one or more of those balls should be saved for later in the rack. No time or room for the running of balls in areas (that did make some sense in the second half of the rack on the old 10-foot tables).

Good; only one more on the above shortened list. Throwing the ball as explanation for delivery of stroke. When one learns that subject well he will find many such occasions for doing just that. However, there are many such occasions when that happen to not be the way it should be done! So much to be explained you have no idea! Can’t even scratch the surface on this one so I’ll just mention how one’s stroke should not remain the same over and over as you see with many of the pros. The stroke style should continually change to suit the shot at hand; subtle changes. Even the weight of the ball … this one can be simple and short enough for we have the light snooker balls, the much larger and heavier ball used in caroms, and the pocket-billiard ball which is somewhere between in size and weight. Throw a golf ball, a larger one such as that used in softball, and try a bowling ball to see how differently you will find yourself throwing them. Notice how much earlier the wrist action with the golf ball as compared to how little and late it occurs with the bowling ball, and the pocket-billiard ball is once again somewhere in between. Just how one's hand relates to one’s wrist is an entire chapter in a book on fundamentals that I hope to publish someday.

Many have been quite surprised upon learning how just my outline on stance is over 20 pages long already and around twice that for stroke; just outlines of 10-point text with narrow margins all around. Why is there so much to be taught about fundamentals? Because there is so little known about the subject in this particular sport for reasons I’ll not go into here. A recent student remarked how, "but that isn't in any book, or magazine, or anywhere and yet it is so basic!" I was referring to how as one's grip-hand is moved backwards one's error in direction normally lessens accordingly just as one's measurement of spin is less accurate with longer bridge length. Much to be known about continual alterations in bridge lengths to suit shots as well!

I was just reminded about how one of the best-selling books on pool, possibly of all time, had an explanation re how stance was not really very important since anyone watching the pros can see they all play quite well despite the fact that they each have differences in the way they stand. Got news for you guys and gals, those pros would play much better had they a thorough, full, complete knowledge of fundamentals. Pool is possibly the only sport that lack so much knowledge re the basics of the game.

Hopefully this will all fit in my post. I’m going back to sleep!

For ever increasing knowledge, and still quite full of arrogance, for whatever it was worth, Eddie Robin

 

[12squared]

My personal opinion as I've explained it in the past and in my books, is that if ya can't shoot straight you should attempt to improve in another game such as 14.1 for one-pocket, being such a strategic game, tends to distract players from their fundamentals

This is genius, and very true! I have seen many very good 9-ball players play one-pocket where their ball making goes down at least the 7-ball worth or more. They continue to think about their shot selection while trying to shoot because of not believing in their selection of shots. That's one of the 3 "Ds": Don't Do Dat :grin:. If you do not have good fundemantals to begin with, there are other games to help you improve those that lean more to shooting than strategy.

Eddie's back! Keep em coming.

Dave

 

[Big Perm]

The smart part of me says I bank the 4, two rails, with stop to leave the cue where the 4 is......

The dumb part of me says I thin the 13, towards my pocket on the high side, running the cue right back where it is...

 

[subdude1974]

This is a no brainer. Just roll the 13 in. No english, just roll it. As long as you dont hit it real bad, and I mean REAL bad, you will either win the game or force him to put you on 7. No reason to bank any ball here. The balls lie in your favor. Die it in the hole and you have the other ball for the win.

 

[lfigueroa]

Eddie Robin takes on a whole truckload of scared cows and teaching techniques.

but, but, Eddie: what about pausing at the end of your final back stroke?

Lou Figueroa
certainly THAT ONE
has to be right