Open v.s. Pro ?

[Masayoshi]

Is this "Pro" Test and scoring system published online anywhere (particularly in english)? It would be interesting to see what the criteria are.

Thanks,

I think the test for the JPBA is held 2 times a year. It consists of a written exam and 3 games of bowliards. I'm not sure what the written exam consists of, but it should be fairly easy. For the playing test, you have to score 630 for men and 450 for women. I feel like the only reasons a good player wouldn't score 630 over 3 games is fatigue or boredom.

The hard part isn't becoming a pro, the hard part is making any money as a pro. There are tons of amateurs here that could be pros if they wanted to, but the fees they would have to pay and being excluded from amateur tournaments are too high a cost. A lot of the times, the amateurs here are actually better than the pros. Only maybe the top 5 or so have any significant advantage over the top amateur players.

There is also a smaller pro organization here where you can just pay a fee to be a pro, but you are excluded from the amateur events AND the non-open JPBA events, which kinda sucks. I have never met anyone from that organization.

 

[bobbybamateur]

Mr. Duckie, it's not about being cheap, it's about what the player's think about what the right thing to do for getting more player's in the Tournament, without the players there is no tournament, and about maning up and playing with the big boys, i've been there and done that, have beaten my share of pro players, but the steady paycheck comes before pool no matter what, you have to have your priorities straight, pool is just a game, it's not a sport, a golf player comes in LAST PLACE in a weekly tournament in a tournament and makes 15-20 thousand, an average pool player makes that in a year, some living!

 

[neal916]

Mr. Duckie, it's not about being cheap, it's about what the player's think about what the right thing to do for getting more player's in the Tournament, without the players there is no tournament, and about maning up and playing with the big boys, i've been there and done that, have beaten my share of pro players, but the steady paycheck comes before pool no matter what, you have to have your priorities straight, pool is just a game, it's not a sport, a golf player comes in LAST PLACE in a weekly tournament in a tournament and makes 15-20 thousand, an average pool player makes that in a year, some living!

It is very much so about being cheap, esp if your talking about 15 dollars in terms of skills and entry fee but you just stated you "have beaten my share of pro's".

Before this you stated you sat out tournaments because it was "unfair". Unfair is having to pay more than other people to enter in a tournament because you play well and then go on to lose knowing that you have to go to another tournament and win if you wanna keep that food in your stomach. Seriously? You have a job, get a check and you want a 15 dollar break on a entry? That is being cheap.

As for paying 100 dollars then drawing Mika in the first round, If i didn't wanna play a great I wouldn't have paid. If I really really wanted to win I could play a 10 dollar local tournament. People would pay hundreds of dollars just to play Micheal Jordan in a game of 21, winner take all - knowing that they will lose but get to play with a great. And you would have a line of hundreds to play - maybe of which only 10 may really have a chance to win.

Seriously my point of view if you paid the full entry fee then you must be expecting to do well, and if you are upset you drew a player who wupped your cakes in the first round then maybe you shouldn't have bought in.


May the best man win. Not the best handicap.
These guys bust their chops to be the best at what they do to keep their stomach full and people punish their livlihood because their "most likely" to win. When the bull's kept winning the NBA Championship the NBA commish didn't say "every team that plays the bull's gets a 25 point head start because their just too good" As post said earlier. - Man Up! (and that has nothing to do with you getting up and playing with "pro" players.)

 

[Scott Lee]

Bobby...Not exactly correct. In PGA events (which rarely happen every week) you first have to make the cut. Even some of the best pro golfers fail to make the cut sometimes. The ones that do make the cut, are in the money, but last place is usually closer to 5k-10k, rather than 15k-20k. Don't forget about expenses...they are high too! Pro golfers definitely do better than pro poolplayers, but they have to work for it. BTW, according the latest figures for pro poolplayers, not too many made at least 15-20k last year...and again, that's before expenese and taxes.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

a golf player comes in LAST PLACE in a weekly tournament in a tournament and makes 15-20 thousand, an average pool player makes that in a year, some living!

 

[Cameron Smith]

Bobby...Not exactly correct. In PGA events (which rarely happen every week) you first have to make the cut. Even some of the best pro golfers fail to make the cut sometimes. The ones that do make the cut, are in the money, but last place is usually closer to 5k-10k, rather than 15k-20k. Don't forget about expenses...they are high too! Pro golfers definitely do better than pro poolplayers, but they have to work for it. BTW, according the latest figures for pro poolplayers, not too many made at least 15-20k last year...and again, that's before expenese and taxes.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Exactly. And outside of the PGA tour, pro golf tournaments don't pay much better than pool. The Pepsi tour pays first prizes between $3000-$5000. That's roughly the same as the Canadian 9 ball tour when it was still running.

 

[cleary]

Bobby Bobby Bobby, what am I going to do with you. I agree with everything you said except for sitting on the sideline. First you play way too good to sit on the sideline. You can easily beat anyone who plays regularly on the Predator Tour. Never let something as small as $15 dollars get in the way of you enjoying the game you love. I know I know it's principle, but this is not something worth getting yourself upset about. We must pick and choose our battles in life. Something like this should never cause you one day of stress my friend.

I believe you are right, but don't cut off your nose to spite your face. Enjoy life you only life once.

Good post GMAC. My thoughts exactly.

 

[stbjr80]

Don't agree at all.

Not playing because of a $15 dollar difference is not right at all. You say you are not playing because it is a freedom of speech and you are standing up to what is right. First off..I am not a pro and have never been in the money. Though I hold a professional card, I do to support the game that I love.

First off...If you are playing in a Pro-Am Tour, I am assuming you at least have some confidence that you are able to run the table. Therefore, you do have a chance to win regardless of who you are. Making a pro pay more money for an open event is wrong. They have put in the time and effort to get where they are and probably still making less than you and I. But here people with a fulltime job want to show up to an open event and say, "Its not fair because they got whooped in the first round by a well known player". If that is the case, stick to your local 10 dollar handicapped tournaments.

Everyone playing in the Pro-Am tournament regardless of what they are paying knows they probably won't win unless you bring your "A" game, which they worked so hard to bring everytime. This is exactly what is wrong with the people in billiards today. They are so worried about the money they put out to support the game because they think they can't win.

The point here is if you don't think you can win, you won't play.

 

[real bartram]

Mr. Duckie, it's not about being cheap, it's about what the player's think about what the right thing to do for getting more player's in the Tournament, without the players there is no tournament, and about maning up and playing with the big boys, i've been there and done that, have beaten my share of pro players, but the steady paycheck comes before pool no matter what, you have to have your priorities straight, pool is just a game, it's not a sport, a golf player comes in LAST PLACE in a weekly tournament in a tournament and makes 15-20 thousand, an average pool player makes that in a year, some living!

why are you not playing in the tourneys?

 

[Black-Balled]

I think the following are present in all of us:
You are on the internet- just kidding- true though.

-We want people playing tournaments.
-We know the 10-20% dollar amount difference is negligible.

As a single occurance it isn't that big a deal, but in a large sense it does influence participation. How long would you continue to play $100 events without cashing?

 

[Maniac]

As a single occurance it isn't that big a deal, but in a large sense it does influence participation. How long would you continue to play $100 events without cashing?

This is what some on this thread don't seem to comprehend.

Me, I won't pay $100 to play in a tournament against people that I have absolutely NO chance of beating. But, I might (and have) payed $40 or $50 to do so. Even doing THAT is few and far between. I'm just not big into "giving" my money away. I am pretty sure that there are others like me out there. Now if that tournament wanted 128 players for a full field and entry fees were a big part of the prize funds, and the TD wasn't drawing but about 50-60 players, wouldn't it be better for the more skilled players wallets if the tournament was filled with lesser players not minding getting in at a lower entry fee? Makes for a bigger prize fund, which the more-skilled players are most likely going to pocket anyway (keeping in mind here that I'm talking about non-handicapped tournaments which almost always sees the wheat separated from the chaff). Geez, so many complaints about "no money" in pool, and then people P&M about letting some players in a tournament at a reduced entry fee. Go ahead and run 'em on off to where the only money made will come out of the pockets of the "better" players.

Money, money, money. It's always about money.

Maniac

 

[chevybob20]

This is a good thought provoking thread. This subject has been visited several different times from slightly different angles. One day someone might come up with a solution and have the means to implement the solution.

I applaud Bobby for making a stand on the principles that he deemed important. I also think it's sad that a solid player is not participating in good events.

The standing question is "How do tournament directors improve participation in tournaments which proffesional players are allowed to play?" Some lower level players will play regardless (this group includes me). This is the easy group. How do tournaments draw in the rest?

Some of the regional tours have started offering lower level tournys disallowing pros. This is still a work around. When the tours have open tournys the same lower level players don't participate in the higher level tournys.

I would play in more tournaments if my work schedule would allow. I work rotating shifts. I wish more would participate but this would be a donation. For one to think differently would be unrealistic. How can tournament directors increase the value gained by lower level players when they pay the entry fee and not significantly reduce the value paid to the top players on tour?

I'm not sure this can be done. If it is done it won't last long unless there's some added value other than placing in the money.

 

[justadub]

This is what some on this thread don't seem to comprehend.

Me, I won't pay $100 to play in a tournament against people that I have absolutely NO chance of beating. But, I might (and have) payed $40 or $50 to do so. Even doing THAT is few and far between. I'm just not big into "giving" my money away. I am pretty sure that there are others like me out there. Now if that tournament wanted 128 players for a full field and entry fees were a big part of the prize funds, and the TD wasn't drawing but about 50-60 players, wouldn't it be better for the more skilled players wallets if the tournament was filled with lesser players not minding getting in at a lower entry fee? Makes for a bigger prize fund, which the more-skilled players are most likely going to pocket anyway (keeping in mind here that I'm talking about non-handicapped tournaments which almost always sees the wheat separated from the chaff). Geez, so many complaints about "no money" in pool, and then people P&M about letting some players in a tournament at a reduced entry fee. Go ahead and run 'em on off to where the only money made will come out of the pockets of the "better" players.

Money, money, money. It's always about money.

Maniac

There you go again, making sense. What are we gonna do with you? :grin:

I agree completely with Maniac. Maybe, just "maybe" I might pay the full $100 once if a particular group of pros were there, just for the novelty of it. But to do so regularly, no way. At a lesser fee, I'm betting that I probably would participate. Like maniac says, this is regarding a tournament that isn't handicapped.

I'm all about supporting pool, but if your tournament needs me to "donate" in order to survive, your tournament is already in trouble.

 

[Black-Balled]

Funny- the morning folks vs. the nightime folks!:grin::grin::sorry:

 

[SUPERSTAR]

Kind of split on this issue.

Personally, it's not that big of a deal if the entry fee for Open and Pro isn't staggered. Whenever there was an event with a staggered entry fee, I always showed up with the mindset to play, and just payed what i was told. It didn't matter what level i got stuck in. I would just fork over the cash.

BUT
If they actually went through the trouble to hand out surveys, to get the players suggestions, and then someone went on record that they were indeed going to make the change, only to back off of it at the last minute, and this happened to be the tidbit that i couldn't stand about the tour...

I'd probably sit on the sidelines as well.
It's not actually the money. It's the whole principle of it.

Why lie about it. Why even dangle that carrot at all if you were never going to do it in the first place.
I would have absolutely no problem sitting out for something like that.
I've sat out of tournaments for much less.

Although i did have one question that has been on my mind.
How many players are we talking about on average for the Open/Pro events?
Not the events where you have everyone under the sun coming out to play like the last Raxx event, but all the other events that aren't as big?

10? 16? How many?

I mean, i would assume that an Open/Pro is barred from playing in the A,B,C,D event, and you have staggered entry fees for all levels of A's, B's, C's etc.

Why make the distinction in the first place between Open and Pro?
Is there some $$$$ award for each division at the end of the year?
Are there events where only Pro's can play? Open players?

I mean, if you are going to make the distinction between the 2, why not make it official and charge them accordingly?

 

[stbjr80]

I see both sides

I am seeing both sides of the argument. However the thread is about an "open" event and a good solid player not playing a game he loves over a $15 difference. He stated he has beaten his fair share of pros and the issue is not that he couldn't win. I believe he should voice his opinion while competing. I understand this is his choice and he is handling it the way he believes it is right and I commend him for that. The great thing about this game is there are so many different formats, one can pick and choose where they want to play.

Maybe organize their own tour to meet their needs so there will be more options. Maybe play in amateur only events. Not saying these are the answers to the problem, because I know he works and organizing your own tour is easier said than done. One thing we do know...no matter how a tournament is structured, someone is going to have a problem with it. But there will always be players out there wanting to compete even though they know they can't win. Because like he said, this game is addicting.

I think this is a great thread because it addresses a reason why we have a good player not playing and makes everyone think outside the box and make this game better.

 

[BigDaddyInc.]

Lastly, i just want to say that i was really looking foward to playing in the predator Tour this year because Tournament director William Finnegan told me a month before the predator started 2011, that the entry for a Pro would be 115.00 and a Open would be 100.00, i was in heaven seeing that i can finally play in a ''FAIR '' Tournament, which '' ALL '' the entry level's were staggered correctly, IMHO, I have alway's supported the Predator Tour and Mr. Tony Robles, who i happen to think and know is one of the ''BEST '' and '' Fairest '' Gentleman i have ever known, ( I know he got most of that from his Father, lol,) then i asked Tournament Director Finnegan what happened to the Entry Fees with the Open-Pro class, there still the same, and he gave he usual non-shalent answer, i have nothing to do with that, and i was devestated, so i ''Truly '' wish, the Predator Tour the best of luck again this year, but unfortunatley, I will be a ''RAILBIRD '' ( hate it! ) this year again, and will be known as '' the bad guy '' for sticking to my personal beliefs, but this is America, and the right of ''FREEDOM OF SPEECH '' still holds true, for now!! Thank you everyone for listening to what i said here, and please would appreciate what you guy's think, Thanks, Bobby B.

Well it's your decision of course. But why short yourself by not playing? It's fine to stand by your beliefs, but when your own beliefs have a possibility of making you unhappy then why do that to yourself?

 

[luckwouldhaveit]

B and below players have 0% chance to win and a very low chance to cash in local tourneys here. They are purely donating and increase the payout. A players and up are debatable.

 

[SUPERSTAR]

B and below players have 0% chance to win and a very low chance to cash in local tourneys here. They are purely donating and increase the payout. A players and up are debatable.

On that same note, you could always talk about the Pros who ALWAYS seem to cash/win, who pay the same entry fee as Open players who barely ever do.

 

[justadub]

There are a few things that seem to get lost in this discussion.

In my opinion, the argument for lower entriy fees really should only apply to non-handicapped events, and probably only to events that aren't likely to draw enough to fill out the field with top level players. Meaning this argument doesn't doesn't apply to "big" events like the US Open, etc. Those fields are gonna be filled regardless, so one-price-for-everyone is very appropriate. At least in my eyes.

The only reason I would support this kind of entry fee difference (and it would have to be substantially different for me, not the $15 mentioned earlier...) is that I don't have a problem throwing a little something in to be able to mix it up with much better players. I don't expect lower pricing on local tourneys, (the $5, $10 or $20 variety) and I know I'm most likely donating even then. It's the $100 type of fee that would scare a banger like me from that kind of a donation... That would be money better spent on actual "lessons", when you get to those kind of dollar amounts. (Unless you've got enough scratch and don't care. That isn't me. :grin: )

If there are enough "good" players to fill the field, it shouldn't be an issue. I guess ya gotta know your market and the demand for any tourneys in a given part of the world.

 

[book collector]

Open Vs Pro

On the other side of the coin , Pros could, and probably should, ask for free entry and all others could share the burden of their fees as an appearance charge.
At least the top 8 players should get free entry IMO.