Outside english on cut shots...

Do you use outside english on cut shots?

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Neil said:
IMO, you nailed it. Outside, while it does cancel throw, is not the reason it is used most. Outside is running english, which means you can move the cb farther at a slower speed. You don't have to force the cb. It is a more natural way to get position.

That said, you use what ever english you need to get your position. You try and play position to use outside.
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I believe you have this wrong. Running english occurs when the cueball is spinning in such a way that the spin is condusive to making the cueball travel faster upon hitting the rail.

Let's suppose you are cutting a ball to the right at a 45% angle, but you use side/right english. This is inside english, but when it hits the rail the cueball is spinning counterclockwise, which is running english as this spin causes the cueball to travel faster as it hits the rail.
 
One more take on this subject. Using outside english on a cut shot makes the object ball turn over in the direction of the pocket. And that's the way you want the object ball turning. It makes the pocket a little softer and easier to make the ball in. When the object ball is turning over in the direction of the pocket, you have a little more room for error and the ball will still go in.
 
Outside English

I use the english needed to get to the next shot other wise center ball cinches the shot pretty good.

If I dont want the throw on the shot a half tip will do-- shot slow.

If you dont overrun your shots you dont need to do something fancy.
 
jay helfert said:
One more take on this subject. Using outside english on a cut shot makes the object ball turn over in the direction of the pocket. And that's the way you want the object ball turning. It makes the pocket a little softer and easier to make the ball in. When the object ball is turning over in the direction of the pocket, you have a little more room for error and the ball will still go in.
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I'm not getting this one, If you're using strictly left or right spin on the cue ball, doesn't that just add a hair of left or right spin on the object ball? Most of which is gone by the time it's travelled a few inches? What difference does it make the pocket if the ball were spinning left vs. right?
 
CreeDo said:
I'm not getting this one, If you're using strictly left or right spin on the cue ball, doesn't that just add a hair of left or right spin on the object ball? Most of which is gone by the time it's travelled a few inches? What difference does it make the pocket if the ball were spinning left vs. right?
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What Neil means is the cueball throws the object in the direction of the pocket - when you hit it full. I don't know if there is more room for error, but you are more comfortable when you can hit the object ball fuller.
 
I use outside on cuts most of the time. But unless I am going to a rail and need extra spin, I limit it to 1/2 tip. With that amount, throw and spin pretty well cancel out and you need make no compensation.

As Jay said, outside spins the object ball toward the pocket. The old timers used to call it "go in" english.

One other consideration for using a touch of outside, if you attempt to hit center ball, chances are you won't hit it perfectly square in the center. So using outside ensures that you will get a more predictable result by putting the type spin you expect on the cueball, even if it's a touch more or less. Unintended inside spin is very unpleasant!
 
tedkaufman said:
[...]
One other consideration for using a touch of outside, if you attempt to hit center ball, chances are you won't hit it perfectly square in the center. So using outside ensures that you will get a more predictable result by putting the type spin you expect on the cueball, even if it's a touch more or less. Unintended inside spin is very unpleasant!
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There's another subtlety here.

Let's say "gearing" outside english [don't like that term] is 60 rpm. That is, at exactly 60 rpm, the SIT that wants to throw the ball to the thinner direction exactly cancels the CIT that wants to throw the ball to the thicker direction.

But you are imperfect, and your attempt to get 60 rpm results in something between 55 rpm and 65 rpm. Because of this you get a certain unpredictability in the result, as you say.

Now compare this to your attempt to hit centerball. There you try for 0 rpm and actually achieve between -5 and + 5 rpm, again leading to a certain unpredictability in the result.

It turns out the unpredictability is larger (in fact largest!) in the firrst case. It turns out "gearing" english is the MOST sensitive to small changes.

For an absolute worst case scenareo, where the angle the object ball takes is most sensitive to small changes in english, use gearing english and stun.
 
I put sometimes.

I don't automatically use outside to offset collision throw because I'm then unnecessarily introducing deflection into the shot, making it more complicated. This depends on the distance between the CB and OB.

I will use outside English on occasion to help make sure I cut the ball enough, especially if it's a real thin cut since it will allow me to hit a smidgeon fuller and avoid the whiff.

Mostly I use outside (or inside, or no English) to either assist in gaining position, moving balls, or (and I'm surprised no one mentioned this one yet) to avoid the scratch in a side pocket.
 
Whatever it takes

Hit every shot for what it calls for at that time or you will limit yourself to advancing.
Thin cuts,back cuts,any angle for any shot,,,if you practice all shots and strokes with, right,left,extreme,not so extreme using any number on the clock when it come to that shot you will have confidence.

There is a lot to be said about confidence built thru repitition
( The Rote System ) Hard to find an equal

Sincerely: SS
 
Throw

I find that when the balls are picking up a lot of throw (older set or a bit dirty) some cuts seem to have a small margin of error if you dont compensate for throw. So you have to cut it a bit thinner and then the throw doesn't take as much. It seem like the close side of the pocket is tough to hit. Those angles (40-60 degrees I guess) seem to be a lot easier with a little outside. Not so much to have to worry about a lot of deflection, just to help things a bit.

If exact position isn't a biggy I'm usually aiming for the right amount of englsih that deflection and curve seem to cancel out and I can offset throw without any other adjustments. Its not a conscienous decision, its just more of a feel thing. The more shots I can hit at a medium speed with light english the better off I am.
 
CreeDo said:
I'm not getting this one, If you're using strictly left or right spin on the cue ball, doesn't that just add a hair of left or right spin on the object ball? Most of which is gone by the time it's travelled a few inches? What difference does it make the pocket if the ball were spinning left vs. right?
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Try this - shoot a ball that is close to the rail at a corner pocket. Now shoot it using center high english, so the ball is turning over toward the pocket. Hit it slow to medium speed. See how much you can cheat the pocket (by hitting the rail) and still have it go in. Now shoot the same shot using left or right english and try cheating the pocket. If you do this honestly you will see the difference it makes having the ball turning over in the direction of the pocket. Sorry, but this is Poolplayers 101!
 
jay helfert said:
Try this - shoot a ball that is close to the rail at a corner pocket. Now shoot it using center high english, so the ball is turning over toward the pocket. Hit it slow to medium speed. See how much you can cheat the pocket (by hitting the rail) and still have it go in. Now shoot the same shot using left or right english and try cheating the pocket. If you do this honestly you will see the difference it makes having the ball turning over in the direction of the pocket. Sorry, but this is Poolplayers 101!
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damn, I missed that 101 class >_< I'll give it a try, but not sure if I'm supposed to be cutting it or hitting it fairly straight or hitting hard or soft or what? Can't visualize what a ball turning towards the pocket looks like.
 
Hairy-Redneck said:
I was talking to a really good open player and he gave me a good tidbit. He says he uses outside english on about 90% of cut shots. He told me the outside cancels out the collision induced throw. It made a lot of sense to me but when I tried it I kept overcutting the balls. I usually hit center pocket and I'm considered a really good shootmaker. I think I should just forget about it.

How many of you use english on cut shots to cancel out english?
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FYI, I have a lot of information and resources addressing this topic here:

Outside English "cancel" throw only if it is the exact right amount, called "gearing" outside English. If you have more than the "gearing" amount, the the OB will throw in the direction of the spin (SIT: spin-induced throw); and if you have less than the "gearing" amount, the OB will throw in the cut direction (CIT: cut-induced throw). This video explains and shows these effects:

For information about how "gearing" English changes with cut angle, and for lots of illustrated examples, see my January '07 BD article.

Another issue with outside English, is that the amount of throw is very sensitive to the amount of English, especially with a stun shot. An argument can actually be made that using inside English is a better approach. For more info, see:


Regards,
Dave
 
jay helfert said:
Try this - shoot a ball that is close to the rail at a corner pocket. Now shoot it using center high english, so the ball is turning over toward the pocket. Hit it slow to medium speed. See how much you can cheat the pocket (by hitting the rail) and still have it go in. Now shoot the same shot using left or right english and try cheating the pocket. If you do this honestly you will see the difference it makes having the ball turning over in the direction of the pocket. Sorry, but this is Poolplayers 101!
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I think I know what you are saying, but I think you are leaving out one more point.

Let's say you cut the ball so that it has running english going down the rail. You are correct if you were saying that the object ball will hug the rail more - it seems.

But, if his same object ball bounces off the rail and hits the oppoisite tit, the spin now is NOT conducive for the object ball to spin into the pocket. Rather, the running english may cause it not to spin in the pocket should the miss be off.

So, unlike golf, where we have the 'high' pro side, in pool we have more than the Poolplayers 101 explaination going on. :grin-square:
 
CreeDo said:
damn, I missed that 101 class >_< I'll give it a try, but not sure if I'm supposed to be cutting it or hitting it fairly straight or hitting hard or soft or what? Can't visualize what a ball turning towards the pocket looks like.
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Don't use the cue ball. Just shoot an object ball directly at the pocket, as a way of testing this theory. Hit it above center at soft and medium speed. Then try it with english, left or right. Cheat the pocket until you miss. See which way you can cheat the pocket more.
 
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