Parallel, Front Hand or Back Hand English
- Thread starter Tennesseejoe
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to use BHE, you have to bridge at the pivot point. the pivot point on low deflection shafts is longer, so you'd have to use a long bridge, sometime too long to be practical. a regular deflection shaft pivot point is usually closer to a typical bridge length
Patrick Johnson said:
I always thought that when people say they are using parallel, they are adjusting the aim to account for squirt, then shifting the cue parallel to center ball using that new line as reference. In fact I don't see how you can interpret it any other way. The end result might look the same as if you pivoted from the original (squirt-free) aim (aside from the way your body is positioned relative to the cue), but you do it without actually pivoting. If you can make any sense out of that.
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PKM said:
That's the only way it makes sense, alright. It's a confusing label, but what can you expect from pool players?
pj
chgo
McChen said:
That hasn't been my experience.
My shaft is an 11 mm, super low squirt, lower than a Pred, and I use BHE with it.
However, my pivot point varies with the distance of the cue ball to the object ball, and also with the power of the shot. There are very few shots where one needs to positively power the cue ball. On regular speed shots, swerve becomes a factor, obviously.
Each shaft is different, but to give you a comparison, if I set up a shot that is one diamond's distance from the cue ball to the object ball, my bridge will be about the length of a diamond. If the cue ball is six inches away from the object ball, my bridge will be 6 inches. If it's three inches, my bridge will be three inches.
These bridge lengths work very well for me on gentle, pocket speed shots. Obviously, at a certain distance, shots at that speed can have the cue ball roll offline, and there's a limit to the length of bridge that is practical. About the longest bridge I feel comfortable using is about 15 inches or so. And by the way, these shots are dependent on a consistent stroke.
Due adjustments will be needed to account for swerve, throw on the cue ball, dirty or polished balls, and so on.
However, this info is enough to get you started.
BTW, with an OB-1 shaft, shooting these same shots requires quite an adjustment, at least for me and my stroke. For a shot where the cue ball to object ball distance is one diamond, my pivot point for the shots described above is probably in the 8 to 9 inch range. Adjustments for all the other distances are also needed.
With a regular squirt cue, all bets are off on the gentle pivot point shooting. You'll need to experiment.
As for whether anybody else does what I do for the kind of shots mentioned, who cares? It works for me.
Flex
Forgive me, I'm new to pool. What in the hell is "back hand" english? Who makes this shit up? 
jay helfert said:Forgive me, I'm new to pool. What in the hell is "back hand" english? Who makes this shit up?
You're right, Jay. It's a quirky method for those with the shakes. Old timers seem to do just fine with it. Heck, the way some of these guys stroke, you'd think they might miss the cue ball, what with their stroking hand wiggling and all that.
You guys need to read the artical from the april 2008 billiards digest Called
"Friends from afar". It explains how the filipino players use back hand english.
It has a diagram that shows how to pivot your stick to apply it. The best
way to see it used is to watch Bustamante or Sambajon. These players
both use it in their style of play. It is easier to get the concept when you
can see it in action from a great player, than reading about in an artical.
"Friends from afar". It explains how the filipino players use back hand english.
It has a diagram that shows how to pivot your stick to apply it. The best
way to see it used is to watch Bustamante or Sambajon. These players
both use it in their style of play. It is easier to get the concept when you
can see it in action from a great player, than reading about in an artical.
Joe T
Well-known member
I believe I did make a mistake by not being clear there at the beginning of that video and sorry to those that didn't get it. What I was doing at the beginning there was showing how to get max squirt in minimum squirt. Max being a non low squirt stick with parallel english and minimum being a low squirt shaft while pivoting the english. All sticks do squirt but some much less than others. If I would have shot that shot with the normal stick the same way I did with the predator I still would have missed because of the squirt just not by as much. Compensating for squirt is one of the toughest hurdles and amateur player has to face AND that is my main motivation for starting predator like shpeels. I do that because I believe low squirt can make the journey a little easier on a player learning to use side spin and I've been doing that since I 1st heard of low squirt sticks.skins said:
I think you're actually agreeing with him...
You lengthen your bridge when the distance between CB and OB is longer, which is also when you get more swerve effect, which reduces squirt effect (like a lower-squirt stick). That's pretty much what McChen said.
By the way, if you're bridging at 12 inches and using BHE, then your effective pivot point (including adjustment for swerve) is 12 inches, which means your "pure" pivot point is even shorter (which is a pretty high-squirt stick). This makes me wonder if you're really using plain BHE or adding some other adjustment (maybe unconsciously). Like you said, whatever works...
I think you told me your shaft isn't hollow, right? The 11mm diameter reduces squirt, but I don't know if that would make your shaft lower squirt than a Predator. Is there something else in its design that lowers squirt?
pj
chgo
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Patrick Johnson said:
I have three 11mm shafts. One of them has no ferrule, just one of those carbon fibre pads the OB-1 has, and it squirts even less than the one I showed you. The one I showed you has a 1/2 inch ferrule. In time, I may cut it off
and install a pad and tip.When I went to the DCC this year, I showed the other Schmelke with 11mm tip (that one had a 1/4 inch ferrule, FWIW, and now just has the pad and tip).
JoeyA had been playing on the table in the AZ room. He did his own personal test on the shaft. He set up a shot of about 4 diamonds distance, and shot to thin a ball on the end rail. The cue ball squirted, over that distance, according to him 2/3 less than his Predator. Swerve was obviously also a factor. That wasn't a scientific test, just one by a good player on a table he was familiar with, using a cue ball he was used to, and so on. He said "I could really get used to this shaft."
When one thinks of it, whether the tip is hollow or not is not the only factor. The actual density of the wood comes into play, I would think, with a much denser, heavier, shaft wood producing a different amount of squirt than a lower density shaft. For instance, the shaft that Ed Young made for me, and has since been turned down to 11mm with a 15 inch pro-taper, is denser wood, and squirts the cue ball more than the two shafts from Schmelke.
The weight of the ferrule is likely a factor too.
What I can say without doubt is that my 11mm shaft squirts way less than my OB-1, with both being used on the same butt.
How much less is it? A lot, and it definitely makes a major difference when playing with one or the other. To quantify it, I'd need to do some serious tests, but I play with it so seldom now, that I have no desire to do so.
Anybody want to buy a decent, used OB-1, in a 5/16 X 18 joint, with black collar?
Flex
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Good points. I think the ferrule is the greater factor, unless there's more variance in shaft maple density than I realize.
pj
chgo
BHE and FHE resources
Regards,
Dave
FYI, my November '07 article has good illustrations for both back-hand English (BHE) and front-hand English (FHE). I also have much more info on these and related topics here:jay helfert said:
Regards,
Dave
natural pivot length
BHE and FHE work well only if the natural pivot length of the cue matches your English pivot length (e.g., your bridge length for BHE).
Regards,
Dave
FYI, I have a good summary of pros and cons of low-squirt cues here:Joe Rogan said:
BHE and FHE work well only if the natural pivot length of the cue matches your English pivot length (e.g., your bridge length for BHE).
Regards,
Dave
Flex,Flex said:
I agree, I can also play BHE with low squirt cues. I've trialled my 10mm snooker cue and found it requires just a 4" longer pivot point that my normal cue, which I'd say is intermediate squirt. I guess (only had a few trials) with predator shafts that they have slightly more squirt than my 10mm snooker cue.
That would mean a pure pivot point of about 12-13 inches. That means the pivot point required at short distances at high speeds.
For many typical shots the effective pivot point will be up around 17", which is a bit long, but still quite manageable.
Colin
Do you think many pros or good players learn by just pivoting the cue and learning by experience as opposed to, say, using BHE at your precise pivot point? I believe Joe Tucker claimed (correct me if I'm wrong) that most use a combination of FHE and BHE, often without realizing it.
Joe,Joe Rogan said:
You can use back hand english with any cue.
I think a medium squirt cue is best for most shots. The difference is that you can use a shorter bridge (pivot point) with higher squirt cues than for the hollowed out low squirt cues.
My cue is probably medium squirt. The pure pivot point is 10 inches. The effective pivot point increases in length due to swerve, so shots when 3 foot between CB and OB and medium speed my effective pivot point is around 14 inches. The requirements for low squirt cues is about 13 and 17 inches respectively.
On slower longer shots my effective pivot point moves up to a maximum of about 20 inches. ( 8 foot slow shot with english). With the low squirt cues this probably works out at about 25 inches.
To me, anything over 18 inches bridge length becomes awkward, so a medium squirt cue is best to cover most the normal ranges. But most shots with BHE are still quite manageable with a low squirt cue.
I'm currently putting an instructional video together to explain BHE, pivot points and the adjustments required for throw together.
Until that is ready, you might get some insights from this slightly hackish (done on mobile phone with no script) video I put together explaining Back Hand English and Pivot Points.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERFTM8dbat0
Colin
Patrick Johnson said:
pj, I thought you were in on one of these many conversations about english compensation.
Parallel is when you line up the shot to make it with perfect dead center hit on the cueball.... then say you want to hit at 3o'clock english.... so you move the front of your stick 1 tip to the right... and the back/butt of your stick the exact same amount.
So with the final product, your original aim line with a center hit, is parallel to your new line at 3o'clock.
Maybe that makes sense?
Joe T said:
if you use BHE correctly the stick doesn't mater. i use a normal shaft and when using BHE the ball goes straight into the hole as it should. even on balls hit very hard. BHE changes the direction of aim so the "squirt" can bring it back on line again. the results are the same when i do this with any other "engineered" shaft.......now if we're talking parallel english, the the engineered shafts do perform a tad better but using parallel english is a death sentence imo.......