Pendulum Stroke vs. Elbow Drop

[Bob Jewett]

OK, what about Mr. Ulrich's elbow drop? Just curious as to when you think his elbow is dropping. ... JoeyA

His elbow appears to be in continuous motion through the stroke. I didn't look at it carefully, but maybe he has adopted a piston stroke, like the Joneses.

 

[mikepage]

OK, what about Mr. Ulrich's elbow drop? Just curious as to when you think his elbow is dropping.
http://propoolvideo.com/florida-pro-tour/fl-pro-tour---m.-davis-v.-l.-ulrich.html
JoeyA

Very interesting. Louis drops his elbow on every shot. And yes he drops it before contact.

Note that his grip is way choked up. With that set position (well forward of vertical) he could not merely stop dropping his elbow to get a good pendulum stroke. He would have to change his set position as well.

 

[Scott Lee]

JoeyA...In many shots, Louis uses a pretty standard pendulum swing. In the ones where he "drops" his elbow, it is AFTER contact. Difficult to see, because you can't view it in frame-by-frame slow-motion (which we do in pool school), but it is indeed after contact. What we see clearly, is that Louis's grip is clearly ahead of perpendicular at CB address (which is why the cue looks like it's being 'steered' on the followthrough in some shots), and one reason why it really seems like he's dropping the elbow early. What we also clearly see, is that Louis RAISES his elbow slightly, as he brings the cue back on his backswing. He lowers it the SAME amount, as he strikes the CB. This is EXACTLY the same thing that Massey does, in his demonstration video of the power draw shot.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

OK, what about Mr. Ulrich's elbow drop? Just curious as to when you think his elbow is dropping.
http://propoolvideo.com/florida-pro-tour/fl-pro-tour---m.-davis-v.-l.-ulrich.html
JoeyA

 

[JohnnyP]

Joey:

His hand is already past vertical when he address the cueball. I see the same thing when I watch the old straight pool clips.

 

[Scott Lee]

Mike...The fact that Louis raises his elbow on his backswing counters the downward "movement" of the elbow (prior to CB contact), cancelling the 'miss-hitting' potential, that the elbow drop contributes to, for players with less than perfect timing. Therefore, the elbow drop that we're concerned with here (the tip moving far past the end of the natural range of motion) does not happen until after contact, not before. Again, difficult to really see and evaluate objectively with slow-motion, stop-action video analysis.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Very interesting. Louis drops his elbow on every shot. And yes he drops it before contact.

Note that his grip is way choked up. With that set position (well forward of vertical) he could not merely stop dropping his elbow to get a good pendulum stroke. He would have to change his set position as well.

 

[Fixer]

I have seen Efren not being able to draw the cueball in important matches at least 10 times. Elbow drop? More than ever. There are dangers. Having said that I am a dropper myself, but not on drawshots, I think.

And on long shots without power I shoot so short I dont have time to drop. Lol.

 

[Cornerman]

You see? That's what I'm talking about. No disrespect to Mike Massey...he's a longtime friend of mine. However, Mike doesn't start moving his shoulder until AFTER he hits the CB. You can see that clearly in the video. So, imo, you don't have to drop the elbow, if you have a fast, smooth delivery. Mike Massey's stroke is more powerful than almost anyone's. Yet you can easily see how he uses only the cue, to make that power draw shot. Since the dwell time between the tip and the CB is only a thousandth of a second or two, nothing you can do further, with your arm, does anything to change the outcome of what happens with the CB. The CB is already gone, BEFORE Mike starts dropping his elbow.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I don't know what anyone else sees, but anyone can watch the slow motion at the end of the video and do a pause. Massey clearly drops the elbow about 6" BEFORE contacting the cueball. The full collapse of the elbow however comes well after the contact. But, let's make no mistake here. That elbow is in motion prior to hitting the cueball. In fact, he does an elbow rise and drop before hitting the cueball, so there's a lot of motion going on.

Fred

 

[Fatboy]

Beginners should stick to the pendulum stroke without dropping the elbow or "slipping" the cue as they should focus more on delivering a straight and smooth stroke first.

I agree, but sometimes the pendulum stroke just isnt enough, pro snooker players use the pendlum stroke alot, however the on some shots they will drop their elbow, because the situation calls for it. I can play either way. But for beginners its the way foward and easier to teach, I wish I would have started out like that, i might play stronger now. But I didnt

 

[JoeyA]

Not correct.
Slip-stroke is holding the cue a little forward, then before pulling the cue one last time, you slip the grip hand back towards the rear, pull then shoot.

JoeyInCali,
With the slip-stroke you are describing, what is the benefit to having your hand grip a little forward before the final stroke, then moving it back (sliding) toward the same place that you would traditionally position your grip hand with a traditional pendulum strokeand then pulling the cue back one last time? I see that Jimmy Moore definitely moves his hand toward the rear of the cue so it works for some people but I'm just trying to figure out what it accomplishes.

Thanks,
JoeyA

 

[Fatboy]

Mike...The fact that Louis raises his elbow on his backswing counters the downward "movement" of the elbow (prior to CB contact), cancelling the 'miss-hitting' potential, that the elbow drop contributes to, for players with less than perfect timing. Therefore, the elbow drop that we're concerned with here (the tip moving far past the end of the natural range of motion) does not happen until after contact, not before. Again, difficult to really see and evaluate objectively with slow-motion, stop-action video analysis.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Louis was at my house a few weeks ago with Cory Harper, I watched them play for just a few minutes, Louis makes his stroke work, like Hopkins makes his work, or Keith.

 

[tucson9ball]

to drop elbow or not?

This is the cold hard fact about it. The cue ball and the object balls have no idea if your elbow is dropping or not. As long as you hit your intended target on the CB and stroke straight through it you can start tap dancing if you want to. Not dropping the elbow is a good thing to teach a beginner, as are all the basics of form and stroke, but everyone has their own style and own characterisitics. Things will change. You're not going to get any better action with a non dropped shoulder if you're hitting the ball in the same spot and driving through the same.
MULLY

I have to agree with mully, everybody has their own style. Ask Keith Mcready how he can make anything with his wrist all contorted the ay it is when he shoots?

 

[JoeyA]

I have seen Efren not being able to draw the cueball in important matches at least 10 times. Elbow drop? More than ever. There are dangers. Having said that I am a dropper myself, but not on drawshots, I think.

And on long shots without power I shoot so short I dont have time to drop. Lol.

I think that dropping the elbow should be avoided on a shot where accuracy and speed of stroke is at a premium (long distance). I could be wrong but I think that is where I have a problem.

I used the stripe ball as the cue ball (thanks Patrick) and seem to hit precisely where I'm aiming but to confess, I have always had some accuracy problems on long, straight draw shots.

I am going to pay more attention to the best shot/shape makers in general to see if they drop elbows on the power draw shots. I think it is a problem area.

Thanks for all of the replies.

JoeyA

 

[Jal]

You see? That's what I'm talking about. No disrespect to Mike Massey...he's a longtime friend of mine. However, Mike doesn't start moving his shoulder until AFTER he hits the CB. You can see that clearly in the video. So, imo, you don't have to drop the elbow, if you have a fast, smooth delivery. Mike Massey's stroke is more powerful than almost anyone's. Yet you can easily see how he uses only the cue, to make that power draw shot. Since the dwell time between the tip and the CB is only a thousandth of a second or two, nothing you can do further, with your arm, does anything to change the outcome of what happens with the CB. The CB is already gone, BEFORE Mike starts dropping his elbow.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott, so called "accelerating through" has essentially nothing to do with increasing dwell time, although many believe this is what gives them more cue speed. You are right to point out that this is wrong. But there is a more subtle effect that accrues from it, which can yield more cue speed.

The force we apply to accelerate the cue evolves during a stroke. It goes from zero to some peak, then back down to zero, and then becomes negative (deceleration) for the most part, to slow the cue down and bring it to a stop. If you imagine a graph of that force plotted against time or distance, different shapes yield different cue speeds at impact.

Generally speaking, you get more cue speed when the peak force occurs later in the stroke,ie, the curve is skewed to the right...up to a point. This is naturally accompanied by a longer follow through, though not necessarily so. In that sense, loosely speaking, a longer follow through results in more cue speed.

This is not voodoo physics. It's just less obvious because most players, and people in general, have not been exposed to the concept of an integral.

Jim

 

[JoeyInCali]

JoeyInCali,
With the slip-stroke you are describing, what is the benefit to having your hand grip a little forward before the final stroke, then moving it back (sliding) toward the same place that you would traditionally position your grip hand with a traditional pendulum strokeand then pulling the cue back one last time? I see that Jimmy Moore definitely moves his hand toward the rear of the cue so it works for some people but I'm just trying to figure out what it accomplishes.

Thanks,
JoeyA

Local former world-class straight pool shooter here at Danny K's, Wayne Norcross does it. He claims he copied Mosconi's stroke to the tee.
Also Bakersfield Bobby had a slip stroke ( monster barbox player ).
I think they did it so they could have longer practice strokes before the payoff stroke.
But, I agree with Lee. I've done several tests for myself. I can shoot a spot shot and draw the ball enough not to touch the end-rail.
There is really PROBABLY no NEED to drop the elbow except on the break or really soft shots ( kill shots ).

 

[JoeyA]

Scott, so called "accelerating through" has essentially nothing to do with increasing dwell time, although many believe this is what gives them more cue speed. You are right to point out that this is wrong. But there is a more subtle effect that accrues from it, which can yield more cue speed.

The force we apply to accelerate the cue evolves during a stroke. It goes from zero to some peak, then back down to zero, and then becomes negative (deceleration) for the most part, to slow the cue down and bring it to a stop. If you imagine a graph of that force plotted against time or distance, different shapes yield different cue speeds at impact.

Generally speaking, you get more cue speed when the peak force occurs later in the stroke,ie, the curve is skewed to the right...up to a point. This is naturally accompanied by a longer follow through, though not necessarily so. In that sense, loosely speaking, a longer follow through results in more cue speed.

This is not voodoo physics. It's just less obvious because most players, and people in general, have not been exposed to the concept of an integral.

Jim

So where are you talking about when you're talking about "later" in the stroke.

With my stroke, I think from what you are saying is that I would probably be better off starting slower and increasing my speed as I move my hand forward, rather than trying to come with my fastest speed immediately upon reaching the rear of my stroke (which is where I have my dueling muscles fighting for supremacy and thereby decreasing my cue speed).
Normally, I kind of try to hit 15 mph from the get go and probably only make 5 mph and that's what could also be causing my inaccuracy.

OK, I will play with that some. Thanks Jim.

JoeyA

 

[Flex]

In any case if a person's goal is to win international draw shot competitions, then he or she might, eventually, benefit from such techniques.

But if a person's goal is merely to become a world class pool player, then I see no reason to mess with this sort of thing at the expense of other more productive uses of his or her time

With all due respect, Mike, the power draw that Mike Massey shows is something that should be tried, the way he does it, to see if it works for a particular person.

It's not about winning draw shot competitions; it's about having another arrow in one's quiver...

Flex

 

[Flex]

Just a general comment. It's often said by not a few instructors on this forum that the players that drop their elbows when shooting have what amounts to an uncanny sense of timing, that normal players don't have it, blah blah blah.

That's what I say: Blah, blah, blah.

To each his own.

Try to develop that perfect timing. Develop different strokes, and use them when appropriate.

This idea of just one kind of stroke isn't for me.

Flex

 

[klockdoc]

I think that dropping the elbow should be avoided on a shot where accuracy and speed of stroke is at a premium (long distance). I could be wrong but I think that is where I have a problem.

I used the stripe ball as the cue ball (thanks Patrick) and seem to hit precisely where I'm aiming but to confess, I have always had some accuracy problems on long, straight draw shots.

I am going to pay more attention to the best shot/shape makers in general to see if they drop elbows on the power draw shots. I think it is a problem area.

Thanks for all of the replies.

JoeyA

Joey, I do not know too much about dropping the elbow on power draw shots, but, I know when I was younger, I used to drop my elbow quite often when shooting a follow shot. I could tell that I dropped it when I really juiced it up by the number of 'nicks" in the butt end of my cue. I always had lots of dings there. I do not do that much anymore.

I would think that dropping the elbow would make you come up with the tip, therefore negating the drawing ability. Just a thought.

 

[Jal]

So where are you talking about when you're talking about "later" in the stroke.

Probably "later" than you're doing it now. It's a relative term.

The issue is one of physiology as well as physics, and I've seen precious little data on the physiology side. But it appears that with your typical stroke (a good stroke), the peak force happens about halfway through it, time-wise. This corresponds to roughly 1/5'th of the way to the cueball, distance-wise. If you could stretch this out so that the peak occurred at about 80% into your stroke, time-wise, corresponding to about half the distance to the cueball, you would then generate max cue speed.

Almost certainly, this or anything close to it cannot be achieved with a pure pendulum stroke, though some noticeable gain might be made. Dropping your elbow before contact probably gets you considerably closer to it. But without seeing accelerometer data on just what takes place, this is all speculative (the shape of the curves are important, not just where the peak occurs).

With my stroke, I think from what you are saying is that I would probably be better off starting slower and increasing my speed as I move my hand forward, rather than trying to come with my fastest speed immediately upon reaching the rear of my stroke (which is where I have my dueling muscles fighting for supremacy and thereby decreasing my cue speed)...

That's the idea. If you could generate peak force early and then sustain it, that would definitely produce the most cue speed. But it appears that either through habit or physiological limitations (muscles fatigue?) this isn't the way it normally goes. If you have to make a choice, physics says later is better.

I've tried to accomplish "later" by simply moving my hand back as far as possible on the butt. I did see a clear increase in max draw distance. It was unorthodox in that my forearm was "before vertical" at contact. The instructors here are wretching in my general direction at the idea, but I didn't have much of a problem with tip placement (not more than usual anyway).

Just discussing.

Jim

 

[pdcue]

I grasp the concept, but don't really see the point of it. It's just adjusting WHERE you grip the cue before you stroke?

Maybe it doesn't have a point, just a style some players have on some shots. Looks like pool needs a glossary.