It is the same problem as the rest of society has...........http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4o-TeMHys0
(Just substitute "pool room owners" for the people he mentions)
(Just substitute "pool room owners" for the people he mentions)
People are Failing, not Pool Rooms...
- Thread starter Fatboy
- Start date
I contend that a well thought out poolroom can still make it TODAY! Good location, the right rent with a good lease and all the proper licenses, including liquor (or at least beer and wine). BINGO!
Then you must promote relentlessly for the first six months to let people within a three mile radius know you're there. Finally be a GOOD owner, treat people right, make friends with your customers, just be a good guy. It works! There's more but I won't go into all of that. I remain convinced that many (not all) people want a place to go to and socialize. We are still human animals, social creatures.
My last poolroom closed in 2005 because I lost my lease. It was going strong and I was making good money with 18 tables, 12 video machines, 1 ping pong, ATM, juke box, sandwiches and beer & wine. We would do over $500 a day during the week and over $1,000 a day on weekends. My overhead was less than 40% of that. You figure it out! I wasn't getting rich, but I was making a nice living. It can be done!
I will bet anyone that I can still create a successful poolroom in any city in the United States. If someone wants to open a poolroom I can show you how to make it work. Of course YOU must take care of your customers. Treat them right and they will come back again and again. I can't do that for you.
Then you must promote relentlessly for the first six months to let people within a three mile radius know you're there. Finally be a GOOD owner, treat people right, make friends with your customers, just be a good guy. It works! There's more but I won't go into all of that. I remain convinced that many (not all) people want a place to go to and socialize. We are still human animals, social creatures.
My last poolroom closed in 2005 because I lost my lease. It was going strong and I was making good money with 18 tables, 12 video machines, 1 ping pong, ATM, juke box, sandwiches and beer & wine. We would do over $500 a day during the week and over $1,000 a day on weekends. My overhead was less than 40% of that. You figure it out! I wasn't getting rich, but I was making a nice living. It can be done!
I will bet anyone that I can still create a successful poolroom in any city in the United States. If someone wants to open a poolroom I can show you how to make it work. Of course YOU must take care of your customers. Treat them right and they will come back again and again. I can't do that for you.
No one needs to look any further than these forums to see how right you are, measureman.
Roger
Amen, Jay. How'd you like to move to New England and do it again?
On a somewhat related note... Did anyone read Mike Shamos' article in this month's Billiards Digest? It's about a survey of poolrooms that was done in Columbus, Ohio in 1916. Columbus had about 200,000 people at that time and the pool rooms numbered 243! The total number of tables was 795, so the rooms only averaged 3.3 tables per room. The largest had 40 tables. "It was estimated that between 15,000 and 20,000 people played in poolrooms every day in Columbus, for an annual total of five to seven million." Wow!
I won't be moving from Southern Cal. But I am willing to consult on a project from inception to completion. I've been directly involved (owner/partner) in four successful poolrooms and helped build out eight others.
For a pool room to have a shot today -- [pun intended] -- it is location, location, location.
They used to say,"Build it, and they will come." Not so anymore with pool rooms.
One of the most successful pool rooms today is in Providence, Rhode Island -- Snookers. Why? Well, their location. They are located right in the heart of several dozen colleges, universities, and community colleges. Young adults like to have a place to meet and socialize. Pool is a very social game and a good way to meet people.
Plus, Snookers offers good food, a friendly staff, and houses excellent equipment. They are promoting pool by hosting pro tournaments, amateur tournaments, and accommodating pool players of all caliber.
Gone are the neighborhood billiard parlors that don't serve alcohol. Snookers is the pool room of 2010, and so far, their business model is working quite successfully.
They used to say,"Build it, and they will come." Not so anymore with pool rooms.
One of the most successful pool rooms today is in Providence, Rhode Island -- Snookers. Why? Well, their location. They are located right in the heart of several dozen colleges, universities, and community colleges. Young adults like to have a place to meet and socialize. Pool is a very social game and a good way to meet people.
Plus, Snookers offers good food, a friendly staff, and houses excellent equipment. They are promoting pool by hosting pro tournaments, amateur tournaments, and accommodating pool players of all caliber.
Gone are the neighborhood billiard parlors that don't serve alcohol. Snookers is the pool room of 2010, and so far, their business model is working quite successfully.
I agree 100% Jay, and of course...the customers are going to be coming from that "Other" pool room across town...to a better room...which then in turn causes that room to go under...so everyone can cry..."Rooms are going out of business"....but don't mention the new rooms that open all the time
it was for me, infact there were years I didnt know anyone outside the pool room, those days are LONG gone, for all of us. it aint like it was-sad to say.
Look at the look at the number of viewers on free streams, 500 people or maybe 1000 people. that means that there 10-20 people in EACH state watching, how sad is that?? 320,000,000 people in America(my guess) and we get 1000 on a "Good" free stream watching the best of the best play. That right there shows the interest in pool. Sure 3 years ago less people have computers but now most people can figure out how to log on. The champions are Kings without a Country,sad...
I agree on the micro level it is possible to open and run a successful pool room, I could do it and make $5,000/week. I have done the numbers, based on my experience as being a bizman thats a hanger. But its not the highest and best use of my time, I know how to work less hours and make 30 times more money.
My OP was talking about the macro level-pool as a whole. How many guys like me and you Jay know how to open and operate a pool room that would be successful? not enough. Right now is the best time ever to open up. Tables are dirt cheap, rents are super low, everything is right in the current economy to open a successful room. But thats on a micro level, 3 mile radius here and there.
I would say that the "pool room" is dead. You can't open a brand new pool room and make it work.
But, you can open a bar with X number of pool tables and make it work. Basically all the pool rooms here in Minneapolis are bars/sports bars with pool tables. They have bands, karaoke, all the games on TV, decent food, etc. There is one room left that currently doesn't serve alcohol, but they get their license for strong beer and wine on Jan 2nd! Leagues tend to keep a room in business. League players want booze, because for the most part, they do it for the social aspect.
So, how to you make pool successful and grow in the US? Keep working at making it a social activity.
I know of a room that basically had two sides, one side was the "social" side with the bar and no gambling on it. The other side was the "gambler" side. Tight pockets. Gamblers there all day long in any number from 1 to 15. Rail birds at some times. The owner is shutting down the gambler side of the room because their table time and soda purchases aren't enough to even pay the heat bill for that side. The room still makes a profit, but that profit is lower because of having to subsidize the "serious" players...
So, while lots of you who are "strong" players who take pool really seriously, don't drink when playing, etc, you also tend to be the ones *****ing the most about rooms closing and such. You belittle league players who like to socialize and have fun. In many cases people like you are driving new players away from the game. There is a very eleetist attitude at many pool halls, which makes it very intimidating to new players.
I'll finish this with one final question... How man NEW players have you brought into a pool room in the last year who are still playing at one on a weekly basis? I have 4 on my list. I also think some of my co-workers are getting sick of my continual attempts to recruit them into leagues. But, THAT is what it takes and is something anyone with a love of pool can do to help grow the sport.
Brian
But, you can open a bar with X number of pool tables and make it work. Basically all the pool rooms here in Minneapolis are bars/sports bars with pool tables. They have bands, karaoke, all the games on TV, decent food, etc. There is one room left that currently doesn't serve alcohol, but they get their license for strong beer and wine on Jan 2nd! Leagues tend to keep a room in business. League players want booze, because for the most part, they do it for the social aspect.
So, how to you make pool successful and grow in the US? Keep working at making it a social activity.
I know of a room that basically had two sides, one side was the "social" side with the bar and no gambling on it. The other side was the "gambler" side. Tight pockets. Gamblers there all day long in any number from 1 to 15. Rail birds at some times. The owner is shutting down the gambler side of the room because their table time and soda purchases aren't enough to even pay the heat bill for that side. The room still makes a profit, but that profit is lower because of having to subsidize the "serious" players...
So, while lots of you who are "strong" players who take pool really seriously, don't drink when playing, etc, you also tend to be the ones *****ing the most about rooms closing and such. You belittle league players who like to socialize and have fun. In many cases people like you are driving new players away from the game. There is a very eleetist attitude at many pool halls, which makes it very intimidating to new players.
I'll finish this with one final question... How man NEW players have you brought into a pool room in the last year who are still playing at one on a weekly basis? I have 4 on my list. I also think some of my co-workers are getting sick of my continual attempts to recruit them into leagues. But, THAT is what it takes and is something anyone with a love of pool can do to help grow the sport.
Brian
RBC
Deceased
Eric,
I agree entirely!
I would also add that of those who still play the game, far too many of us fail to patronize the pool rooms enough. I know I have been guilty of asking for free table time. If we want our favorite pool rooms to survive we have to spend a little money with them.
That's completely unrealistic. You don't have to buy a top of the line table to get a kid interested in pool. You don't need to buy one at all and just take him/her down to a family billiards type pool hall. IMHO teens still like to hangout somewhere they can be face to face with their friends. For the room owner it's all about knowing what you're doing and many sadly are pathetic at running a business.
Yes, a sports bar has more appeal. My last room had fourteen TV's, including four big screens (50-60") and one giant (8') screen. We had ALL sports on all day long. Baseball, basketball, football and maybe a little hockey. That's about it. You could watch a television from any place in the room (covered 7,000 square feet). When the Lakers played we were packed! Same for pro football, especially the Monday night game.
Everyone was eating pizza, drinking beer, shooting pool and sweating the game. I had a hard core of maybe fifty to sixty regulars, who were into pool. Many of them bought monthly passes to play all day. The other 80% of my business was the casual player, usually two guys or couples. Sometimes several guys would come in together or two couples on a night out. Four guys sharing a table that was $8 an hour IS a cheap date!
I had only two league nights and they played on my two bar tables. If I were to do it again I would probably have more bar tables, maybe four to eight. Eric is in a special class of individual who is used to making big money. I'm not. A few thou a week is a good pay check for me. But I live a middle class life style, no mansion or Rolls in the driveway. For most of us I would think that making a nice six figure income and doing something you enjoy is pretty rewarding. It can be done.
But make no mistake, owning and running a poolroom/sports bar is not an easy job. You will be working long hours, with 50-60 hours a week the average, sometimes more. Remember you have to pick up supplies nearly every day. And you hire the employees, make the schedule and do the payroll every week. My last room was small but I still had eight employees. A lot of hours to cover, And we needed two people working every night.
John Schmidt will find out it's no piece of cake, but he may find that he can make a better living than simply playing pool. I know I did!
Everyone was eating pizza, drinking beer, shooting pool and sweating the game. I had a hard core of maybe fifty to sixty regulars, who were into pool. Many of them bought monthly passes to play all day. The other 80% of my business was the casual player, usually two guys or couples. Sometimes several guys would come in together or two couples on a night out. Four guys sharing a table that was $8 an hour IS a cheap date!
I had only two league nights and they played on my two bar tables. If I were to do it again I would probably have more bar tables, maybe four to eight. Eric is in a special class of individual who is used to making big money. I'm not. A few thou a week is a good pay check for me. But I live a middle class life style, no mansion or Rolls in the driveway. For most of us I would think that making a nice six figure income and doing something you enjoy is pretty rewarding. It can be done.
But make no mistake, owning and running a poolroom/sports bar is not an easy job. You will be working long hours, with 50-60 hours a week the average, sometimes more. Remember you have to pick up supplies nearly every day. And you hire the employees, make the schedule and do the payroll every week. My last room was small but I still had eight employees. A lot of hours to cover, And we needed two people working every night.
John Schmidt will find out it's no piece of cake, but he may find that he can make a better living than simply playing pool. I know I did!
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Same here. Pool time...it is the key to getting in stroke, isn't it?:wink:
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I will likely get flamed for this but people can think what they want about leagues being the bread and butter of pool rooms. League players don't go back on nonleague nights to practice. They get a handicap, feel they are owed something and have no need to excell as they can compete with the "equalizer". Here where I live the majority of those league players comming in on a night don't drink anyway because it will effect their skill level 3 of play. Keep in mind I do not mean all but from what I have seen it is the majority and a growing trend.
Banks
Banned
I think a lot more people are playing in bars/sports bars than before. The pool halls have to charge a fair amount to make up for the wages, lease, table costs, etc (and I imagine that all that sq ft isn't that cheap to heat). Then you toss in the fact that half of the players would cut a dime in half to save a nickel. People are just doing other things right now. Pool got big because it is a gambling game, just like poker. Poker has much easier rules to follow. People still play, it's just more difficult to run a profitable and serious pool hall. Maybe they like it more in the Phillipines since there are more tables outside. 
I don't know what goes on with your leagues, but I know that in Portland the leagues can generate quite a bit of revenue. Otherwise there wouldn't be places that host leagues 5 days a week including 2 in-house. They also wouldn't be shelling out the dough for Diamonds if they didn't think the players would follow/return.
I don't know what goes on with your leagues, but I know that in Portland the leagues can generate quite a bit of revenue. Otherwise there wouldn't be places that host leagues 5 days a week including 2 in-house. They also wouldn't be shelling out the dough for Diamonds if they didn't think the players would follow/return.
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Not a flame, but I disagree.
How many hours do league players spend in a bar/pool hall per week? Non-league players? If it were not for the pool leagues, how much time would the league players spend in the bar/hall per week? I'm sure it's not true everywhere, but where I play leagues are the bread and butter of pool related income. Non-league regulars may spend a lot more time there than league players on an individual basis, but where I play one night of league keeps all 7 tables full with 14 teams of 4 players for 4 hours plus other people that come to watch/socialize... I believe this bar has league 3 nights a week, no way are the non-league pool players spending more total time in the bar than the league players. Purely a numbers game. Factor in league is during the typical dinner time and a lot of people eat there during league.
It's more about getting people into the bar for food/drinks than the $.50 a game. There are a few people that don't spend much, drink only water/coffee and no food, but that's going to be true with all players, league or non-league.
Beyond that, I don't see what having a handicap in a league has to do with pool room income? Or do you mean they are not willing to play non-league nights because they are accustomed to getting a handicap?
Disclaimer: I neither own nor operate a pool hall or bar, just stating my assumptions based on what I have personally seen.
One thing about his subject drives me crazy. Let me see if I can clearly explain this:
I am tired of going into nearly empty pool rooms and hearing about how "pool players are lousy customers". We all know that a lot of players are cheap but if your room is not packed why on earth would you not at least want to get some players into your establishment??? If you fill up your room with 30-40 players for a tournament and you can't find a way to get a few dollars out of their pockets then that is the room owners fault. Now if your room is packed every night of the week than it probably makes perfect sense to not cater to the pool players but if not than get them in their and figure out a way to get a dollar out their stingy fingers.
I am tired of going into nearly empty pool rooms and hearing about how "pool players are lousy customers". We all know that a lot of players are cheap but if your room is not packed why on earth would you not at least want to get some players into your establishment??? If you fill up your room with 30-40 players for a tournament and you can't find a way to get a few dollars out of their pockets then that is the room owners fault. Now if your room is packed every night of the week than it probably makes perfect sense to not cater to the pool players but if not than get them in their and figure out a way to get a dollar out their stingy fingers.