Dennis Hatch for one. Go check out some of the Mosconi cup 2010 stuff up on youtube. Dennis drops his tip in behind the ball where he wants to hit it.
Nick
Nick
People who use ghost ball aiming.
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OMG - last night I was watching Jasmin in Georgia doing it - and I had never noticed until talking through this thread. She seemed to be doing it on important 9 ball shots and it seems her purpose was to slow down and have time to take a breath. Amateurish :grin-square:
When shooting cut shots, one needs to take into account the effects of throw on the object ball. Simply aiming for the ghost ball contact point is insufficient as the object ball will be thrown off course.
Two ways one can compensate for throw is to use outside english on the cue ball or hit the object ball a little bit thinner. Or use both techniques at the same time.
Two ways one can compensate for throw is to use outside english on the cue ball or hit the object ball a little bit thinner. Or use both techniques at the same time.
sticktigerx314
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What if I want the cue ball to go to the left after contacting the rail, you would have to aim completely different.
To me, if you are talking about the back of the ball, you can't even see it, you can only see the front and the sides.
WW,
Last week Johnny Archer corrected me when I failed to look at my shot from behind the object ball (looking at the line from object ball to pocket, and then picking the exact contact point on the object ball that would send it to the portion of the pocket I chose). He thinks it is an essential part of the routine on any cut shot. Just sharing (because I bet he can make it automatically without such line up, but he still does so on critical shots).
Well, I'll be flabbergasted. I thought Ghost Ball aiming if no English was used was aiming at an imaginary ghost ball, like shown on Dr. Dave's website at this link: http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#ghost
Eclipse aiming is an entirely different method of visualization than Ghost ball aiming at least as far as I have always thought.
I thought they were two different things. I always wondered how you could see the center of the ghost ball and aim to that center so accurately.
Now you are saying you don't aim at the center of the ghost ball as illustrated in Dr. Dave's link, correct?
Not busting your balls, just trying to understand how you aim.
In the snooker aiming link the eclipsing of the cue ball and object ball seem to refer to fractional aiming.
JoeyA
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sfleinen said:
You're confusing me, too, now Sean. I seem to remember past posts from you with your whack-a-mole analogy. You see the ghost ball sitting there in all its 3-D glory and you just whack it with the cue ball. No?
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Guys:
Calm down, it's an easy explanation. Yes, I see the ghostball as plain as day, and the whack-a-mole analogy still applies. It's just that I now skip a step, and skip the mole altogether. Think of it this way -- while standing up and viewing the shot, I see the ghostball in all its glory. I'm thinking, "there he is! The CaddyShack mole! Kill 'im!" (J/K!) Then I get down on the shot, and line up to hit the mole right between the eyes; he vanishes as I'm fully down on the shot, and all I see are the cue ball and the back of the object ball ("back of ball" aiming, just like used in snooker). The "eclipsing" part has already been done, by my viewing the shot from above, seeing the ghostball, getting down on the shot, and watching the ghostball "vanish" right in front of my eyes, to reveal the object ball behind it, already lined up with the proper amount to "eclipse" with the cue ball.
Does that make sense? I guess you could call it a meld of ghostball aiming and "back of ball". I use the ghostball to "GetMeThere" -- oops, don't know why I was thinking that -- except to *plonk* JoeyA.
Honestly and seriously, hope that helps explain it. When I get equipped for video, hopefully I can put a video together, with Adobe Illustrator "doctoring," that explains it.
-Sean
JoeyA:
*Fingerplonk-on-Joey's-forehead*
Dr. Dave's video, while helpful for the absolute beginner, is not helpful for any seasoned pool player that already has an idea of how to "cut" balls into a pocket (or at least send them in the general direction).
Reason: trying to envision a spot on the cloth to aim it is fraught with error. While envision an imaginary ball right next to the object ball is easily done, and then the subsequent step of aiming dead-center on that imaginary ball is also easily done, trying to envision where that ball touches the cloth introduces needless error. Here's why -- you already have your "solution" of aiming dead-center at the imaginary ball. You see the outline of the ball, and it's an easy matter to put your crosshairs at "center mass." Why are you adding the extra step of trying to envision the exact contact point on the cloth? Joey, I'm assuming you're experienced with firearms, yes? If so, are you capable of shooting a dead-center heart shot on a silhouette target without any sort of "exact center" marker, or do you need a "+" marker in the exact center of the silhouette to show you where dead-center is?
In the previous post #49, I explain how I often (now, quite frequently) let the "mole" just vanish from my sight, after I've lined-up and gotten down on the shot. What's left, after the mole vanishes, is just the cue ball and the back of the object ball, already "eclipsed" by the amount I need. And -- gasp! -- many times I don't need to envision the ghostball at all. Many shots have already been added to my "catalog of shots" in my subconscious, and I just get down on the shot and "see" the solution automatically -- the amount of the object ball I need to "eclipse" with the cue ball to make the shot, without ever envisioning the ghostball. Yes, I skipped a step there, but I don't need it anymore for that "cataloged" shot.
Hope that helps explain it,
-Sean
OK, now I have questions.
My understanding has always been that Ghost Ball aimming involved
visualizing a cue ball in the position of a dead combination, then
'aimming' the center of the Cue Ball "at" the center of the GB.
Back when I used to aim - I was a contact-point to contact-point
player(aimmer?)
One of my close associates, who in those days was a much better
shot maker than I, used your method. He referred to it as the 'overlap'
or 'cut-out' method, tho IMHO - 'eclipse' is a better, ie more
self-explanitory term.
The question, as promissed:
So, is what you guys do "really" Ghost Ball?
..............................................................................................
A few by-the-ways:
for the geometrically inclinded - if you diagram the 3 methods -
GB, eclipse, CP-to-CP, they all result in exactly the same 'line-of-aim'
FWIW - all of the above, are, in fact, "sighting", not aimming.
Aimming is defind as pointing at something, but I digress.
A general concept. I am somewhat stunned by the percentage of 'good'
or better players who claim to adjust their point of aim and/or encounter
shots they just can't "see" where to hit . I would never expect to hear this
from anyone above intermediate skill level.
IMHO - no one single idea can help a player improve more than the very simple: STOP
stop adjusting
stop calculating
most of all - stop thinking...
all these are predicated on the requirement of knowing EXACTLY where to hit
the OB BEFORE you line up for the shot.
DO this, practice this...I promise you will play better.
The bad news, it requires the dreaded "P" word(practice, practice, practice)
.Dale
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sfleinen said:
Yeah, I understand, Sean. But you were my poster boy for true ghost ball -- see ghost ball, shoot straight shot at ghost ball. Now you're eclipsing, back-of-balling, and (horrors) even just feeling the shot. I'm afraid I'll have to take you off my poster.
Well now, you'll just have to add me to your Cable Guy poster. You know, "Git 'r done!"
We all kind of fractionally Aim...........
Whether we call it overlap, back of the ball or whatever we all fractionally aim whether we know it or not.
When you stand in back of the shot in your preshot routine if you have one, you are already deciding how much of that OB you are going to hit. You might picture a ghost ball to help you visualize the amount but we are all fractionally aiming one way or another.
This is the way the eyes visualize the shot. Whether you are guessing or you know exactly how much you are hitting it is what it is.
They are all giving you a mental measurement of how much of the CB is going to hit the OB.
No matter how you shake or bake it we have fractional aiming.
Whether we call it overlap, back of the ball or whatever we all fractionally aim whether we know it or not.
When you stand in back of the shot in your preshot routine if you have one, you are already deciding how much of that OB you are going to hit. You might picture a ghost ball to help you visualize the amount but we are all fractionally aiming one way or another.
This is the way the eyes visualize the shot. Whether you are guessing or you know exactly how much you are hitting it is what it is.
They are all giving you a mental measurement of how much of the CB is going to hit the OB.
No matter how you shake or bake it we have fractional aiming.
The Ghost
Ive read some of the comments and one thing strikes me that a good player told me a long time ago when I was learning what to do about aiming.
He said, you know its just not that complicated, youre overcomplicating the issue when you figure out how to not overcomplicate the issue it gets a whole lot easier.
That didnt tell me a lot about how to aim the ball but essentially he was right, how ever you boil it all down so you can understand the situation and deal with it is the key. For some of us that might as well be quantum physics because some of us will never figure it out to a high level of proficiency. We dont know what we do we just try and be right and we kick ourselves when we are not. When we get down on the ball we are shaky and nervous because we are trying to feel something and we havent given ourselves something real to go by that seems to work for us.
Pool isnt so complicated sure its geometry and I dont mean you have to split up angles into degrees that you can quote off in midair as you shoot either. Put the slide rule up. Its just lines, triangular position zones, rebound angles and stroke speeds but when you start spinning the ball ---------then its art.
You just have to be able to see what youre doing, know what youre doing based on something you use as a key.
Some people are gifted and understand that from day one and do amazing things. Some dont, most dont.
If you know what it is you do based on something you understand know what that is then you have something concrete on which to build your game and some search a lifetime for it, play everyday to attain it and some do and some dont.
You would think that you might have to do yoga, transdental meditation, bark at the moon or whatever and be one with the universe to make shots but naaa-- just not that complicated.
I just think its everyones right to be the master at the table that he has the potential to be. I dont think you should have to play all the time to be able to attain a higher knowing of the game beyond the normal pool league player.
I just dont think most people have figured out how to do just what my friend was talking about. Finding those simple ways that work for you thats precious stuff.
Making it simple. Thats my story and Im sticking to it.
336Robin :thumbup:
aimisthegameinpool@yahoo.com
http://274928807619529663.weebly.com/
Ive read some of the comments and one thing strikes me that a good player told me a long time ago when I was learning what to do about aiming.
He said, you know its just not that complicated, youre overcomplicating the issue when you figure out how to not overcomplicate the issue it gets a whole lot easier.
That didnt tell me a lot about how to aim the ball but essentially he was right, how ever you boil it all down so you can understand the situation and deal with it is the key. For some of us that might as well be quantum physics because some of us will never figure it out to a high level of proficiency. We dont know what we do we just try and be right and we kick ourselves when we are not. When we get down on the ball we are shaky and nervous because we are trying to feel something and we havent given ourselves something real to go by that seems to work for us.
Pool isnt so complicated sure its geometry and I dont mean you have to split up angles into degrees that you can quote off in midair as you shoot either. Put the slide rule up. Its just lines, triangular position zones, rebound angles and stroke speeds but when you start spinning the ball ---------then its art.
You just have to be able to see what youre doing, know what youre doing based on something you use as a key.
Some people are gifted and understand that from day one and do amazing things. Some dont, most dont.
If you know what it is you do based on something you understand know what that is then you have something concrete on which to build your game and some search a lifetime for it, play everyday to attain it and some do and some dont.
You would think that you might have to do yoga, transdental meditation, bark at the moon or whatever and be one with the universe to make shots but naaa-- just not that complicated.
I just think its everyones right to be the master at the table that he has the potential to be. I dont think you should have to play all the time to be able to attain a higher knowing of the game beyond the normal pool league player.
I just dont think most people have figured out how to do just what my friend was talking about. Finding those simple ways that work for you thats precious stuff.
Making it simple. Thats my story and Im sticking to it.
336Robin :thumbup:
aimisthegameinpool@yahoo.com
http://274928807619529663.weebly.com/
I've seen a lot of rank amateurs like Johnny Archer and Efren look at the path.
Ghost Ball Method
I use this method for aiming.
First I stand behind the shot to see the line of sight. I continue the line through the object ball and extend it far past it. Then I visualize the tangent line (again not stopping at the object ball but through it. I tend to aim at a very small speck on the table where the center of the ghost ball is (both my lines intersect) and focusing on this point (not taking my eyes off of it) I walk around to behind the cueball. Before I get down on my stance I picture a line from the target (that very small speck) and go from my cueball through that spot and all the way to the rail. With all of that done I have a more definitive aiming point and i double check my alignment before getting down.
I use this method for aiming.
First I stand behind the shot to see the line of sight. I continue the line through the object ball and extend it far past it. Then I visualize the tangent line (again not stopping at the object ball but through it. I tend to aim at a very small speck on the table where the center of the ghost ball is (both my lines intersect) and focusing on this point (not taking my eyes off of it) I walk around to behind the cueball. Before I get down on my stance I picture a line from the target (that very small speck) and go from my cueball through that spot and all the way to the rail. With all of that done I have a more definitive aiming point and i double check my alignment before getting down.
Yes, but not even more that 3% of the time!!!! Johnny maybe a little more.
I'll bet Efren doesn't do it to line up the shot. He is probably just trying to slow down or something. Now Johnny may have a different reason thanks to Willhebetmore.
Regards.
A very good observation.
To note, I am a ghostballer and I must state that I never look at the pocket when lining up the shot. I see/FEEL where the two rails converge for most shots and I let her rip when I FEEL that it is going in.
My GF uses GB aiming. The way she was taught was to stand behind the object ball and use her cue to to aim the ob into the pocket while holding the tip around 1 1/14 away from the edge of the ball (roughly 2 finger widths). Then use that spot to aim the center of the cb at. Simply and effective. I have had several good players tell me on most shots they do not aim at the ob they aim behind the ob. I have tried this and it doesn't work well for me except on some shots.