Please offer your opinions on cue design theft

All I can say is that social conformity is a powerful phenomenon. People are pack animals and when their parents didn't teach them about a particular situation, they lean on the rest of the pack to tell them what they should feel and they adopt that belief, defending it to no end even though at the core they don't really know if it's right or not. It's human. There's a science based on studying this stuff. With uncharted subjects, the majority belief is often the result of the snowball effect, gaining momentum without a real solid base. It's monkey see, monkey do. Before you know it, there's a common belief that is utterly wrong but it lasts long enough to do it's damage. Look around. It's everywhere. It's right here. Design theft is justified & the guilt neutralized because it's what people perceive is the socially acceptable way to deal with it.

The five techniques of guilt neutralization are denial of responsibility, denial of injury, denial of victim, condemnation of the condemners, and appeal to higher loyalties. I don't make this shit up. It's rock solid text book science. Denial of responsibility is saying you didn't know it was design theft. Denial of injury is saying, "big deal, nobody's hurt by it." Denial of victim is saying, "it's ok because everybody does it." Condemnation of condemners is saying, "what about you? you're a hypocrite who justifies himself by twisting things." And appeal to higher loyalties is saying, "it's what the customer wanted". This is legitimate science, not just some hoky poky bullshit. Design theft is wrong, clearly wrong, yet people justify it to themselves in predictable manner, and actually try attaining support for their BS from their social group. In this case it's the forums.

I'm not here to argue and I won't. I went through it recently with a cue maker who quite literally attempted an exact copy of a cue I built. I was pissed off and spoke out. For that I was called a hypocrite, among other things. The world is a jacked up place if a guy can't even stand up for himself anymore. I'm educated & consider myself a well grounded thinker. I understand what's happening and see things clearly. What I don't understand is why people continue to act like a herd of cattle, following the group because it's safer. We actually live in a time and place that allows a person to be themselves without fear of survival. But still, everybody follows the herd.
 
How does everyone feel about cue design theft. Here is a current thread on the forum where obvious cue design theft has taken place. The cue was made in China by an unknown person, while it appears to have been made to very high standard it is clearly case of design theft. The style of the veneer's (One Sided Veneer's) and other attributes of the cues design were directly stolen from a well known Custom Cue Maker Richard Churdy.

The forum member who started the thread admits that the cue is an example of design theft and even with this said he doesn't feel that by promoting the cue through photo's he has done anything wrong. Maybe I am wrong, however, I think that knowingly promoting design theft is as bad as building cues that are copies of unique designs conceived by another cue maker and I don't understand how some one can justify this behavior.

Here is the thread in question:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=248148

Please let me know if you think this is wrong or right.

The problem with cue design theft is that people take a handful of crap and throw it against the wall to see what sticks. This is, but this isn't, this is ok because its old, but since this cue was done 2 years ago, its off base. All BS, a guy who makes a copy, can say well, you can't copy my cue I don't like it.. WTF?

Guys who are "artists" now, made 6 point SW copies to be able to pay for their CNC, but now want intellectual protection, GFY's is what I have to say. Like I said, throw a handfull of crap on a wall...

Guys who speak out against it, get Szamboti / Bushka copies made at will. These guys designs don't count? C'mon, its just a different time, they probably took as much time laying things out if not more because they DIDN'T have the aid of the computer.

The inconsistancies and the hypocrisy drive me up a wall. If you put a billiard nameplate style wedge, or just the wedge for looks, in the back of a cue, guess what... you copied. Someone thought of it before you. Is it the end of the world? Probably not.. :)

JV
 
Jive handled himself very well on a sensitive subject. Props for taking the high road for the most part.
 
so your hatred of america starts with kids in public school!!!! no wonder you left. i have no business in this discussion (in your opinion) but you have no business/place in my country

Seriously it's not "your" country. There's a few hundred million people here that it belongs to. There's also a fair number of foreigners who OWN land in America, guess that just might make it "their" country too.
 
Dear God/Buddha/Allah/Yaweh forgive me for what I am about to do but in this particular instance.......

I agree with John Barton.


<-----pretty sure the snowball fight just started in hell



While I am not trying to make light of my own thread that is just Creepy:yikes:

It kinda like being invited to dinner by Dr. Hanibal Lector!!:smile:
 
Do you feel the same way about Scott Gracio's 360 Tribute or the Richard Black Bushka? Both clearly are copying original designs. How does this one differ?



In Scott's case no I do not, for the following reasons:

The company is no longer in the business!

The level of craftsmanship needed to build a design like that sets Scott apart from the pack.

Last there is a difference between a tribute and theft. In my opinion tributes are made of fantastic designs that are unique to a time period or place and where the originator of the design either no longer builds or is no longer with us. If the builder is still making cues calling a cue a tribute cue is no different than calling the cue a design theft cue.

If some one loves a design made by a current Cue Maker order a cue from that maker, don't have another maker steal a design to build your cue. The only reason I can think of why some one would do this is because it is cheaper than buying from the builder who originally thought up the design, and if you want cheap go to K-mart you can buy all the knock offs you could ever want there.

As far as, all these Tribute cues that copy Balabushka, in my opinion there is only one maker who has the legitimate right to build these cues and that would be Adam / Helmstetter. They stepped up and payed the Balabushka family for right to use Georges designs, outside of that it is all the same to me theft is theft.

I mean why do you think there are more Balabushka cues on the market than George built? Well I can help you out here, it is because some of these so called tribute cues have either been intentionally built to deceive or where later modified for that purpose!!

Oh an by the way, it was Pete Tascarella who introduced the Balabushka Family to Adam Cues and helped them receive what they were due for the use of the designs and the name, my hat is off to Pete for making the right thing happen.

JIMO
 
Last edited:
The hypocrisy of AZB and other forums, regarding this subject, knows no bounds.

Josh
 
Last edited:
As far as, all these Tribute cues that copy Balabushka, in my opinion there is only one maker who has the legitimate right to build these cues and that would be Adam / Helmstetter. They stepped up and payed the Balabushka family for right to use Georges designs, outside of that it is all the same to me theft is theft.

I mean why do you think there are more Balabushka cues on the market than George built? Well I can help you out here, it is because some of these so called tribute cues have either been intentionally built to deceive or where later modified for that purpose!!

Oh an by the way, it was Pete Tascarella who introduced the Balabushka Family to Adam Cues and helped them receive what they were due for the use of the designs and the name, my hat is off to Pete for making the right thing happen.

JIMO

My understanding is that Adam's Bushka series is a representation of what he would be building now if he was alive. BTW don't get to comfy with Adam, when Mark had showcased his collection and we had a "Crypt" section in the late 90's early 2000 on the web, they hijacked everyone of the cues and COPIED them as closely as they could. I could show the cue and the copied cue, and we approached them and they (comp. sports) said, hey, we needed reference material or something like that... they didn't even offer us a set..

JV
 
Last edited:
My understanding is that Adam's Bushka series is a representation of what he would be building now if he was alive. BTW don't get to comfy with Adam, when Mark had showcased his collection and we had a "Crypt" section in the late 90's early 2000 on the web, they hijacked everyone of the cues and COPIED them as closely as they could. I could show the cue and the copied cue, and we approached them and they (comp. sports) said, hey, we needed reference material or something like that... they didn't even offer us a set..

JV



JV that really sucks, and maybe that is why Competition Sports is no longer in the Picture. The company was taken back from them a few years ago, by Jed Foreman the original owners son who running Adam as we speak.

Thanks for the information
 
Well as I one famous person said, "IMITATION IS THE HIGHEST FORM OF FLATTERY". But if you want to nit pick about Cue Design Theft Bert Schreger made the VERY FIRST SIX POINT CUE, and never received any royalties from the Armada of Cuemaker who now build Six Pointer like Southwest Does. Not I am not shooting arrow in Southwest's directions, as to get a Southwest Six Pointer you were put on the waiting list today for. Your wait will be 8-10 years.

Many many time on AZB we see listing of Southwest Type, Szamboti Tribute, and similar listing in the Wanted & For Sales Section of the Forum.

But our good friend "JIVE" is getting raked over the coals for what I would call a Richard Chudy Inspired Design, and the Cue was not represented as a Richard Chudy or RC3, or a blatant copy down to the identifying marks or signature a real Chudy RC3 has.

Even I could see only from the pictures, the Cue in question was not an Chudy RC3, but a Tribute, or Inspired Design.

To the Cue maker who wishes to Copyright, Trademark, or Patent an exclusive Cue design, so a royalty can be charge for usage by other. I suggest you contact a good attorney with expertise in those fields of law, and see if it is possible to Copyright, Trademark, or Patent an Cue exclusive design.

But I can tell you from personal experience with my intellectual property that was used in publications with out payment or royalty to me. My copyright right was about as good as the amount of money I was will to spend trying to defend my rights.

I personally did not have the financial resources of the Walt Disney Company who has a Armada of Staff Attorneys who do nothing but deal with UNLICENSED USE of Walt Disney Company Copyrighted, Patented, and Trademark infringements.

Stopping the UNLICENSED USE of Walt Disney Company Copyrighted, Patented, and Trademarks, and in some cases taking the offending party, if they have assets to Court to collect monetary damages.


BACK TO THE LURK MODE.
:boring2:
 
Last edited:
Dear God/Buddha/Allah/Yaweh forgive me for what I am about to do but in this particular instance.......

I agree with John Barton.


<-----pretty sure the snowball fight just started in hell


I agree with JCIN
 
Cue design theft

well as i one famous person said, "imitation is the highest form of flattery". But if you want to nit pick about cue design theft bert schreger made the very first six point cue, and never received any royalties from the armada of cuemaker who now build six pointer like southwest does. Not i am not shooting arrow in southwest's directions, as to get a southwest six pointer you were put on the waiting list today for. Your wait will be 8-10 years.

Many many time on azb we see listing of southwest type, szamboti tribute, and similar listing in the wanted & for sales section of the forum.

But our good friend "jive" is getting raked over the coals for what i would call a richard chudy inspired design, and the cue was not represented as a richard chudy or rc3, or a blatant copy down to the identifying marks or signature a real chudy rc3 has.

Even i could see only from the pictures, the cue in question was not an chudy rc3, but a tribute, or inspired design.

To the cue maker who wishes to copyright, trademark, or patent an exclusive cue design, so a royalty can be charge for usage by other. I suggest you contact a good attorney with expertise in those fields of law, and see if it is possible to copyright, trademark, or patent an cue exclusive design.

But i can tell you from personal experience with my intellectual property that was used in publications with out payment or royalty to me. My copyright right was about as good as the amount of money i was will to spend trying to defend my rights.

I personally did not have the financial resources of the walt disney company who has a armada of staff attorneys who do nothing but deal with unlicensed use of walt disney company copyrighted, patented, and trademark infringements.

Stopping the unlicensed use of walt disney company copyrighted, patented, and trademarks, and in some cases taking the offending party, if they have assets to court to collect monetary damages.


back to the lurk mode.
:boring2:

To add to the legal aspect of a valid Copyright Registration for a design applied to a cue, once acquired from the Copyright Office, the owner may register their Copyright Registration with the Bureau of Customs and bar any importation of cues imported to the USA bearing the Copyright owner's design, which is much more affordable than filing an Copyright Infringement Law Suit in a Federal District Court, or with the International Trade Commission (ITC). This applies to a foreign manufacturer unlawfully, or without permission, using an American cuemaker's design to make "many" cues to be sold in the USA, not one cue, because Copyright Infringement only applies to "copies", not one copy. Most of the cuemaking industry is not aware of, or seems to be concerned with, this legal information. So there is a way to bar importation of cue theft designed cues made by foreign manufacturers which infringe the Copyright rights of an american cuemaker's Claim to Copyright, affordably. Paul Del Giudice "PVD1".
 
Last edited:
JV that really sucks, and maybe that is why Competition Sports is no longer in the Picture. The company was taken back from them a few years ago, by Jed Foreman the original owners son who running Adam as we speak.

Thanks for the information

The CS series of vintage cues. Every model came from our site. In fact one is a copy of Tikklers rosewood Gus. Irvin Crane models 2, 3, and 4 and the Lou Butera model 4 all from the Crypt.

JV
 
To add to the legal aspect of a valid Copyright Registration for a design applied to a cue, once acquired from the Copyright Office, the owner may register their Copyright Registration with the Bureau of Customs and bar any importation of cues imported to the USA bearing the Copyright owner's design, which is much more affordable than filing an Copyright Infringement Law Suit in a Federal District Court, or with the International Trade Commission (ITC). This applies to a foreign manufacturer unlawfully, or without permission, using an American cuemaker's design to make "many" cues to be sold in the USA, not one cue, because Copyright Infringement only applies to "copies", not one copy. Most of the cuemaking industry is not aware of, or seems to be concerned with, this legal information. So there is a way to bar importation of cue theft designed cues made by foreign manufacturers which infringe the Copyright rights of an american cuemaker's Claim to Copyright, affordably. Paul Del Giudice "PVD1".



All this information should be noted by people protecting their designs.
 
[ the 12 year olds you have working for you cheapen your product on principal alone.

Really ? dude, not for nothing this is 2011. you need to get out of your house more often or maybe do a little traveling.
above statement of yours is so old & lame. people go to prison or death penalty for child labor. you need to stop drinking that beer & flicking though discovery channel.
 
:-) Don't hate the playa hate the game. Sorry that public school failed you "bro". Yo dawg capitalize those sentences...you ain't ee cummings.



Yo bro, you think these are original put downs? This is so 2007, get with the program and find some original material. People smarter than you have already used up the "China" cards. The ignorant bigot act is all played out.

<-------- Here you go though "bro" this is why I am in China. You got something you want to say to my wife Karen and my daughter Jessie?

Karen's email is karen@jbideas.com - since you have so much to say about her country why don't you man up and say it to her directly?

She'll be getting an email from me later on and one from everyone else i can get her address too by the end of the week.

i'm sorry nobody ever made you proud enough of your country to want to stand by it instead of jumping ship the first chance you got
 
This has been going on for a while. What is design theft? How many Schons look like Richard Black cues? How many Tim Scruggs look like Balabushkas? I see what you're saying with the one sided vaneers but all in all it really doesn't resemble a Chudy to me. I seen a thread a while back where a Phillipino cue maker made a cue that directly resembled a Sugartree. I can see where that would be "design theft". Wouldn't a Titlist "tibute" be design theft? McDaniel made a Ginacue tribute. I believe Phillipi did as well. How many upper echelon cue makers have made Bushka tributes? I'm not condoning or hating on anything I just think there's a fine line.

i bought my first custom about 5 months ago and was proud as a peacock of it. i was going to show it on this forum until i saw that thread about theft design then. it showed a gina cue and a phillipi that looked identical. i said damn that looks like the phillipi i just bought. every time i pull it out of the case i have people come up admiring it and asking about it.

wasnt no way i was going to show my new cue on here, would have just been adding fuel to the fire.

i didnt know there were so many cue makers out there until i joined this forum. being new to the custom cue market i havent really formed an opinion on design theft yet but i would like to give my unbiased observation on the posts i see related to it.

it seems that if a relatively new usa maker or any foreign maker makes a cue that resembles an established makers design he is immediately flamed. if a relatively established maker makes a cue similar to another established makers design most people on here think its no big deal or its just a " tribute " cue. thats just my observation from reading all the threads about the subject.

another thing i think thats interesting is i saw in the f/s section a while back was a cue from the phillipines by a cue maker named linds i think it was, not positive about the name. his cue had shadowed inlays identical to a deceased pinoy cue maker named edwin reyes. there were a couple comments about his cue being identicle to reyes and one comment saying that it was understandable about them being identicle because linds used to work under reyes.

in my opinion if linds had made a cue similar in design to an established usa cuemakers that thread would have had a hundred post flaming him by now, much like this thread here is doing.
 
She'll be getting an email from me later on and one from everyone else i can get her address too by the end of the week.

i'm sorry nobody ever made you proud enough of your country to want to stand by it instead of jumping ship the first chance you got

I have a million dollars that says you won't send any sort of email to my wife spewing the bigoted hate-filled ignorant stereotyping you do here. And IF you do then you certainly won't be brave enough to sign your name to it.

By the way stalker, I "jumped ship" in the service of the United State Air Force who sent me to Germany. What branch of the military did you serve in and where did you serve? Since you know so much about my life.

Tell us how you took an oath to defend and preserve the Constitution and were willing to take a bullet to do that? Tell us how you were willing to go wherever needed to defend America regardless of whether you believed in the politics and policies of the current leaders.

I am all ears to hear about your service.
 
Back
Top