Pool Poll (Willie or Fats?)

[JAM]

I know this topic has been discussed on this forum many times. There is a variety of reasons why folks think pool cannot excel in the United States.

That said, there are some who believe that the gambling aspect of pool, i.e., woofing, barking, hustling, and high-stakes action, is what would help pool to rise in popularity a la Minnesota Fats. This style of pool is quite popular at pool conventions like the Derby City Classic held each January.

Of course, the other school of thought is what I would term as a "pool purist" point of view a la Willie Mosconi. That the competitors should be dressed to the nines and not engage in the associated gambling activities. I would love to hear a little more description of this style of pool from others, what attributes they like about it the most.

So which style pool do you like best, Willie Mosconi's or Minnesota Fat's, and which do you think should be showcased more, the pool purist style or the gambling/action style?

If poker on TV were showcased as the competitors playing mum poker, as an example, and dressed up in tuxedos while in competition, would it be as popular as it is today? Is it unfair to compare pool to poker?

Of course, this topic has strong views, but maybe in this thread we can discuss them in a positive manner, with no barking and woofing.

JAM

 

[Stones]

Looking at it from the stand point of your average joe walking down the street, Fats wins hands down as far as making the game popular.

But ask any serious pool player who the greatest player was and 9 out of 10 would say Willie. (Before the Efren era)

Fats was a great entertainer to the masses and Willie was the inspiration to many serious players, including me, on how the game could be played.

I was fortunate to have stepped to the table with both of them.

Stones

 

[JAM]

Here's two video clips I found on YouTube that I hope will convey the two different styles of play:

Willie Mosconi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uv9E2ijKGNE

Minnesota Fats: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekyLXFehvvk&feature=related

JAM

 

[JimS]

I love watching top level pool being played. I don't mind them gambling and I like watching them gamble but keep the mouth shut and play pool.

 

[Rick S.]

Fats

Much prefer Fat's style....never a dull moment. Ever....

Pretty much the same with Keith, and Earl. All three players are on the top of my list to watch play-banter.

 

[JAM]

Much prefer Fat's style....never a dull moment. Ever....

Pretty much the same with Keith, and Earl. All three players are on the top of my list to watch play-banter.

This poll will be an interesting read in that most readers of this forum are kind of pool purists in a way.

However, when I read the multitude and plethora of posts written about the DCC, what is attractive about the DCC, it makes me wonder.

Both styles are polar opposites. Interestingly, the Wide World of Sports used to feature Willie and Fats on a regular basis competing against each other. It was thought that their polar opposite styles, maybe in a strange sort of way, complemented each other.

According to Fats' Wikipedia article:

Wanderone enjoyed promoting his "feud" with Willie Mosconi. He would publicly state, "I may have 'given away' a few games to deserving competitors, but I have never lost a real money game since I was old enough to spell 'Weeli Mesconi'".

The two played a match on Valentine's Day 1978 on ABC's Wide World of Sports. It was the second-highest rated episode of the show for the year, behind only the Muhammed Ali-Leon Spinks rematch. Held at New York's Waldorf Astoria Hotel, the match was announced by Howard Cosell. More than 10.9 million Americans tuned in to the match. Wanderone was defeated by Mosconi, but charmed the crowd telling jokes.

What has happened to pool today, and what is different today than that era when pool was popular on TV? With Willie and Fats gone, who and/or what can bring this popularity of pool back on TV?

Efren is today's top pool star, and we pool enthusiasts all enjoy watching him play, but it's going to take something more powerful than Efren to get pool back into mainstream media, at least here in the States.

JAM

 

[Johnnyt]

Altough I feel Fat's whoofing was funny, I think his sharking was a disgrace. But watching Mosconi was like sitting at a funeral. Johnnyt

 

[JAM]

Altough I feel Fat's whoofing was funny, I think his sharking was a digrace. But watching Mosconi was like sitting at a funeral. Johnnyt

LOL! Well, you're a big help! :wink: :grin: :embarrassed2:

JAM

 

[ironman]

Altough I feel Fat's whoofing was funny, I think his sharking was a digrace. But watching Mosconi was like sitting at a funeral. Johnnyt

Listening to him was like being at a funeral also.

You know though, it is hard for most to be something other than themselves Fats had that dynamic personality and said some things his personality could get away with. KIieth had a lot of this as well. If Willie had said some of the things Kieth and Fats said, they would have walked away thinking what an idiot or ordering a white jacket for him. It takes many personalities to make up a pool room and this was so much more obvious in the past than the present.

IMO, Fats, Kieth, Bobby Pickle, Louie, Puckett, and others were worth far more than the price of admission. It wasn't so much what they said as was the way they said it. They were funny and entertaining, but, not everyone can be that way. It just takes a special personality, but, not everyone is going to like it either. That is just the way life goes sometimes.

I know that everytime I'm around Keith, he is cocked and ready and I'm usually laughing before he gets finished with whatever he says. To watch him laugh at himself just kills me.

 

[ShootingArts]

have to agree with Johnny

Altough I feel Fat's whoofing was funny, I think his sharking was a digrace. But watching Mosconi was like sitting at a funeral. Johnnyt

I watched Mosconi once back when the world was young and still had only slightly rounded corners. He was "on" that day and simply changed my perception of how the game could be played. He jumped my game up several notches because I was not even trying for that level of perfection before watching him. Watching Efren in the 2006 DCC one pocket semi's and finals on the Accu-Stat tapes was much the same. It expanded my idea of what was possible. Fats was a huge disappointment to me. I never saw him in his prime and by the time I saw him I honestly think I could have beaten him at most games if I got to use half a roll of duct tape to keep his mouth closed!

What we really need is a marriage of the skill of Mosconi and the mouth of Fats. Few of today's TV watchers are going to watch a Mosconi type player long enough to get interested in pool if they happen to pause on a match. Part of my style was to never let the opponent see me sweat and never blink no matter how low percentage of a shot I made. Even some very strong players were a bit rattled when I was lining up my next shot while waiting for the object ball to travel the length of the table off of a tough bank. My road partner was my total opposite hollering at the balls and doing his own commentary ala Mike Sigel. No doubt that Bobby was much more fun to watch than I was but we both took home the cash!

Hu

 

[Burns]

willie's style of play is boring, but if it became popular the sort would have some longevity on tv. if fats' style became popular, it would quickly die off like poker has. better to promote it as a sport rather than entertainment.

 

[Steve Ellis]

The reason the "Fat's style" is popular at venue's like DCC is because it is full of gamblers. The question really shouldn't be which style do current players like, but what will draw new players.
I can't answer that, but I can say without hesitation is I don't like "woofing" in any sport/game be it pool, baseball, basketball, chess, etc. It is just irritating to watch it and to listen to it. Just get on with it and play the bloody game.
On the other hand, I think dressing up to play pool was fine for 1950 when people put a tie to do everything that was done in public, but we are in a new society now and people don't dress up for most things like they used to. Today's pool should reflect today's culture.

 

[JAM]

The reason the "Fat's style" is popular at venue's like DCC is because it is full of gamblers. The question really shouldn't be which style do current players like, but what will draw new players.
I can't answer that, but I can say without hesitation is I don't like "woofing" in any sport/game be it pool, baseball, basketball, chess, etc. It is just irritating to watch it and to listen to it. Just get on with it and play the bloody game.
On the other hand, I think dressing up to play pool was fine for 1950 when people put a tie to do everything that was done in public, but we are in a new society now and people don't dress up for most things like they used to. Today's pool should reflect today's culture.

Very good points. You know, my father NEVER went anywhere without a suit on. He always wore a suit everywhere. He didn't own a pair of tennis shoes or sneakers that I can recall. At home, when working in the yard, he might wear a polo shirt or something like that, but I don't think I ever saw my dad wear a T-shirt -- EVER!

So what should pool look like in 2008? Is it possible to have a little bit of Willie and Fats' best personality traits combined?

Personally, I think wearing suits, long-sleeved shirts, and leather shoes in pool is not a good thing for the men. I saw how uncomfortable a lot of them were on the IPT tour. You would never see Tiger Woods wearing that kind clothing when he is competing.

Pool needs its own clothes, comfortable nice-looking clothes, and I think the golf mode of dress is a good one for pool -- slacks, nice collared shirts, and comfortable shoes without the golf cleats, of course. :thumbup:

JAM

 

[JoeyA]

I voted Willie Mosconi primarily because of his consistency of excellence in pocket billiards.

If I had a chance to choose watching Willie play pool and Fattie playing pool it wouldn't take me a second to holler out Willie's name.

If you ask me who would I rather hang out for a night in a pool hall NOT playing pocket billiards, it would be Fattie. He was a far better story teller. I enjoy the banter as much as anyone else but my desire to watch and play the highest level of pool possible puts Willie ahead of Fattie.

If you posted this poll in front of the general public, I think they would have favored Fattie over Willie. Personalities always win the popular vote and Fattie had plenty of that.

JoeyA

 

[JAM]

I voted Willie Mosconi primarily because of his consistency of excellence in pocket billiards.

If I had a chance to choose watching Willie play pool and Fattie playing pool it wouldn't take me a second to holler out Willie's name.

If you ask me who would I rather hang out for a night in a pool hall NOT playing pocket billiards, it would be Fattie. He was a far better story teller. I enjoy the banter as much as anyone else but my desire to watch and play the highest level of pool possible puts Willie ahead of Fattie.

If you posted this poll in front of the general public, I think they would have favored Fattie over Willie. Personalities always win the popular vote and Fattie had plenty of that.

JoeyA

What is interesting about this poll that is voted on by members of this forum, which I would consider as a knowledgeable pool public, is that what we find attractive in pool is not what the mainstream public would enjoy seeing.

This is what I keep coming back to, trying to figure out how to make it happen again: The two played a match on Valentine's Day 1978 on ABC's Wide World of Sports. It was the second-highest rated episode of the show for the year, behind only the Muhammed Ali-Leon Spinks rematch. Held at New York's Waldorf Astoria Hotel, the match was announced by Howard Cosell. More than 10.9 million Americans tuned in to the match. Wanderone was defeated by Mosconi, but charmed the crowd telling jokes.

I am hoping that maybe there could be a blend, the best of the BEST, so to speak, of Willie and Fats that would work on TV, thereby advancing the pool as a sport.

JAM

 

[freddy the beard]

One of a kind

There will never be another Fatty guys. He filled a stadium in Indiana with a public appearance once. He had a TV show in Chicago called Minnesota Fats Hustles the Pros. It ran for 13 weeks on a UHF channel (32) that up to then had about 4 viewers. They didnt have ratings then, but for 13 weeks he cleared the streets for 2 hrs on Thursdays and was the talk of the town. Seats for the broadcast were sold out from day 1. I attended the first match when he played CornBread Red. The studio was jammed and people were sitting on the stairs in violation of the fire code. That's where I sat, the tickets were long gone and I could only get in on a duke from the Fatman. The next week they moved the set to a site that was 3 times the original size and you had to know somebody to get a ticket. That tiny UHF station, channel 32 is now the Fox Network outlet. He was on the old Tonight show in the 60s when it ran for 1 1/2 hours, and the host, I forgot who, canceled all the other guests and kept Fatty on for the whole show.

the Beard
It's just too bad so many of you never had the pleasure of his company.

 

[Steve Ellis]

....

Pool needs its own clothes, comfortable nice-looking clothes, and I think the golf mode of dress is a good one for pool -- slacks, nice collared shirts, and comfortable shoes without the golf cleats, of course. :thumbup:

JAM

Yes, and the operative word is comfortable. Kind of like the way you see Johnny Archer dressed, neat but not inhibited physically.

 

[Mr. J]

This might work??? It worked before...

Seems as though the masses are looking for intertainment...intertainment like the Fat man provided...I am one who respects both sides of playing pool. I know how to be very serious and also a little crazy and cut loose as they say and make things a bit more intertaining with some woofing and yakking while shooting like the Fat man did...

There was a match some years back where CJ Wiley played Vivian Villareal...this match consisted of the men pros in one set of bleachers and the women pros in the other set of bleachers...all kinds of talking and teasing and rooting were encourage to the spectators who were trying their best to cheer on their player out there...

This match was taped and televised and I believe it was a very big hit with all kinds of viewers..players and non players of the world...

Maybe this combination needs to be tried again??? Just imagine all the 64 WPBA ladies matched up with 64 of the Pro men of today in a scotch doubles tournament...again this could be a format where plenty of taking and cheering of all kinds like before would be encouraged...

That not so long ago match between CJ and Vivian was very intertaining and they yakked at eachother all the way thru the match as well as the ladies and gents in the bleachers too....

I can just see Earl and Vivian playing Keith and Janette...

Just might work and I would bet the intertainment would be priceless like before...

thanks again,

Mr. J.

 

[!Smorgass Bored]

It's As Clear As The Bulbous Nose On My Face.... imo

Originally Posted by Johnnyt
Altough I feel Fat's whoofing was funny, I think his sharking was a digrace. But watching Mosconi was like sitting at a funeral. Johnnyt

LOL! Well, you're a big help! :wink: :grin: :embarrassed2:

JAM

I don't have to tell you which way I voted, do I ?
Doug

 

[androd]

There will never be another Fatty guys. He filled a stadium in Indiana with a public appearance once. He had a TV show in Chicago called Minnesota Fats Hustles the Pros. It ran for 13 weeks on a UHF channel (32) that up to then had about 4 viewers. They didnt have ratings then, but for 13 weeks he cleared the streets for 2 hrs on Thursdays and was the talk of the town. Seats for the broadcast were sold out from day 1. I attended the first match when he played CornBread Red. The studio was jammed and people were sitting on the stairs in violation of the fire code. That's where I sat, the tickets were long gone and I could only get in on a duke from the Fatman. The next week they moved the set to a site that was 3 times the original size and you had to know somebody to get a ticket. That tiny UHF station, channel 32 is now the Fox Network outlet. He was on the old Tonight show in the 60s when it ran for 1 1/2 hours, and the host, I forgot who, canceled all the other guests and kept Fatty on for the whole show.

the Beard
It's just too bad so many of you never had the pleasure of his company.

quote;the Beard
It's just too bad so many of you never had the pleasure of his company.
__________________
Bank on, brother!

amen to that. probably the funniest man alive and a very under rated player. in the 60's ronnie and red matched up with fat 8to7. an even game, i watched fat beat puckett and cannonball in a two week span.