Post dated checks for final 8 at Master's

[satman]

personally

I find it distasteful that a direct competitor to Barry B and his efforts are continually negatively posting on this thread. In a more professional world when some company is having a major problem they're competitors don't openly (except maybe broadcast tv and a couple others) dance on the grave and take the opportunity to extoll their own virtues. They would be counseled instead to let the obvious facts and public dismay stand on its own without their own added little knife twists.

I don't think Sunny or Mark either one, did any bashing. Maybe their posts were not exactly positive reinforcement, but let's face it, this ain't the first time this has happened. BB has don't done this several times. He knows, or at least should know, what kind of money he can promise. He should also have some idea what things could be shaved a little, as far as expenses. The bottom line is, this ain't his first rodeo, and he needs to change something. The players also need to change something.

 

["CaliRed".]

I find it distasteful that a direct competitor to Barry B and his efforts are continually negatively posting on this thread. In a more professional world when some company is having a major problem they're competitors don't openly (except maybe broadcast tv and a couple others) dance on the grave and take the opportunity to extoll their own virtues. They would be counseled instead to let the obvious facts and public dismay stand on its own without their own added little knife twists.

God forbid if someone who actually knows something about how to run a tournament, actually voices a opinion on "gasp" a pool forum in a thread about how to run (or not to) a pool tournament.

There was no dancing on graves or knife twisting to us common sense people. Then again, I'm not a professional sh1t stirrer, so I can't voice a opinion on how you interpret a simple post.

 

["CaliRed".]

Think I'll just stay home and dig ditches and shovel manure. That way at least I know I will get the $. Boy, that really Is sad.
John Brumback

John,

You have to be the most talented sh1t shoveler in the universe.

Horse do-do makes for good pool balls to practice out there, when you're bored, huh?

 

[UGETTHE6]

All you want

***** all you want, post all you want, say what ever you want, but nothing will change. Don't hold an event if you don't have the money, and don't play in an event where you don't get paid immediately after leaving the tournament.

Turning Stone and MZ Haven't had this money problem, Mike pays players as soon as they are done. He should be THE example to be followed.

 

[Nostroke]

Sad they can't get even 60 players for a "big money added tournament".

Sadder most of the best players can't find the money to put themselves in for $500, plus traveling money.

Saddest that it won't take more than a couple more of these non-paying tournaments and the few big pro events left will just cease to exist.

This is the richest country in the world, that doesn't seem to matter either. Pool needs a savior. Where is that person?

If professional pool was a medical patient, they would be in the Intensive Care Unit deemed critical.

and this event was a POINTS EVENT meaning the top players had to play in it. Otherwise they would have gotten less than 40 players. As i said before the event- You gotta crawl before you walk!

 

[Johnnyt]

and this event was a POINTS EVENT meaning the top players had to play in it. Otherwise they would have gotten less than 40 players. As i said before the event- You gotta crawl before you walk!

No first year tournament should be a points event. Need to have at least one year to see turnout and if the stated purse was paid out. Johnnyt

 

[Paul Schofield]

(BCA) I've always been dumbfounded that as a trade association, they've never seen organizing and endowing professional pool as a means to enhance overall pool participation for their industry members. Why is that?

Certainly there's more 'in the know' folks on here that can share thoughts on this. Please do...

Volumes could be written on this topic but it need not be. Here it is in a nut shell:

Professional pool does not promote pool. It promotes itself. Professional pool feeds on pools popularity. Pools popularity and the business of pocket billiards is in the toilet and so follows professional pool.

 

[JAM]

Volumes could be written on this topic but it need not be. Here it is in a nut shell:

Professional pool does not promote pool. It promotes itself. Professional pool feeds on pools popularity. Pools popularity and the business of pocket billiards is in the toilet and so follows professional pool.

The BCA organization, which is supposed to be the North American representative organization for pool, should rename themselves to represent their true interests as the Billiard Industry Members Congress of America. They provide little to no benefit to professional pool in these United States.

The WPA benefits the countries that support their organization quite handsomely.

The pool culture has a selective memory. In the year 2011, it is customary to celebrate pool players who have deep pockets and cannot run three balls in a row and/or B players with huge egos who won't get action without a handicap.

The fearless road player of the '80s who played ALL GAMES on ALL EQUIPMENT is gone, and the American tournament soldier of 2011 is the last of a dying breed.

We are a country with no governing body in pool. The governing body we have now is getting fat from a huge pie they gorge on that is provided to them by its BCA industry members, while Americans pros are scrambling for any leftover crumbs that fall from the BCA's plate.

Let's tell it like it is, shall we?

 

[Perk]

I would be upset if I was not paid on the spot.

With that said payments within 2 weeks would be acceptable if you were a professional and this was your job. I work and get paid 2 weeks after the fact and its not a big deal. If all payments from professional tourneys were delayed two weeks and it was the norm it could be accepted. As is, I would be pissed but I play tourneys for recreation not for my job.

 

[John Brumback]

John,

You have to be the most talented sh1t shoveler in the universe.

Horse do-do makes for good pool balls to practice out there, when you're bored, huh?

Golf Too...If you don't hit them to hard.And thanks for the compliment Calired.John B

 

[JAM]

I would be upset if I was not paid on the spot.

With that said payments within 2 weeks would be acceptable if you were a professional and this was your job. I work and get paid 2 weeks after the fact and its not a big deal. If all payments from professional tourneys were delayed two weeks and it was the norm it could be accepted. As is, I would be pissed but I play tourneys for recreation not for my job.

Valid point, Perk.

Here's the thing, in a nutshell, as I see it. As stated earlier in the thread Allen Hopkins and Mike Zuglan both have established a pattern of having their pro events fill up before the the date of the event. Many a player has been on those waitings lists, kicking themselves in the rear for not paying their entry fees timely.

It can be done. Players are so scared of getting shut out of those two lucrative tournaments that they come up with the funds for the entry fee ahead of time, whether they borrow, get staked/backed, save their pennies, whatever.

Maybe pool tournaments should have a FIRM cutoff date for entry fees to be paid.

I would *guarantee* you that if the U.S. Open was cut down to a field of 128 players, it would fill up well ahead of time. Would it be a bummer to have less players than the 256-player fields in recent times? Maybe it would, but the effect it would have on players paying ahead of time would be that the tournament organizers would be able to plan their tournaments much more efficiently instead of "on the come."

Of course, there's always the problem of weather mishaps interfering with travel, but if tourmaments require entry fees up front, maybe the competitors would realize they need to do their part by ensuring the tournament organizers the amount of funds they have to work with beforehand. It's a thought. I'm not sure it would fly, but it's worth contemplating.:grin-square:

 

[JAM]

The $5 million online poker tournament just started. If we win the tournament, I promise to have a $100,000-added event later this year.

Pull us in, my fellow AzB-ers! :thumbup:

 

[satman]

There are several smaller tournies

Valid point, Perk.

Here's the thing, in a nutshell, as I see it. As stated earlier in the thread Allen Hopkins and Mike Zuglan both have established a pattern of having their pro events fill up before the the date of the event. Many a player has been on those waitings lists, kicking themselves in the rear for not paying their entry fees timely.

It can be done. Players are so scared of getting shut out of those two lucrative tournaments that they come up with the funds for the entry fee ahead of time, whether they borrow, get staked/backed, save their pennies, whatever.

Maybe pool tournaments should have a FIRM cutoff date for entry fees to be paid.

I would *guarantee* you that if the U.S. Open was cut down to a field of 128 players, it would fill up well ahead of time. Would it be a bummer to have less players than the 256-player fields in recent times? Maybe it would, but the effect it would have on players paying ahead of time would be that the tournament organizers would be able to plan their tournaments much more efficiently instead of "on the come."

Of course, there's always the problem of weather mishaps interfering with travel, but if tourmaments require entry fees up front, maybe the competitors would realize they need to do their part by ensuring the tournament organizers the amount of funds they have to work with beforehand. It's a thought. I'm not sure it would fly, but it's worth contemplating.:grin-square:

Where you have to pay entry fees in advance. I am going to the brickyard tourney this month, and it will fill up early. It's only 64 players, but last time, 8 people showed the nite before, and could not get in. Getting players to show is tough, but getting them intersted in paying ahead of time, {especially if they ain't sure they will be paid} is an unbelievable task. Just look how hard it is to collect $25 from the AZ/One Pocket people for a room at the Derby. I understand someone wanting to put on a grand event,,, something kind of spectacular,,,, but if you don't have the backing in advance to pay off the players, cut things back. It makes the whole sport look shady, {and we have enough of that to deal with already}.

 

[JCIN]

The BCA organization, which is supposed to be the North American representative organization for pool, should rename themselves to represent their true interests as the Billiard Industry Members Congress of America. They provide little to no benefit to professional pool in these United States.

The WPA benefits the countries that support their organization quite handsomely.

The pool culture has a selective memory. In the year 2011, it is customary to celebrate pool players who have deep pockets and cannot run three balls in a row and/or B players with huge egos who won't get action without a handicap.

The fearless road player of the '80s who played ALL GAMES on ALL EQUIPMENT is gone, and the American tournament soldier of 2011 is the last of a dying breed.

We are a country with no governing body in pool. The governing body we have now is getting fat from a huge pie they gorge on that is provided to them by its BCA industry members, while Americans pros are scrambling for any leftover crumbs that fall from the BCA's plate.

Let's tell it like it is, shall we?

This isnt a point by point reply to your post but it did get me thinking about some things.

I can think of only one group or entity that makes any serious money off pool and that is the APA. BCA has become a trade group with declining membership and a trade show on life support. I don't know any truly wealthy promoters who made their money from pool and maybe 10 or so players make six figures a year. Bottom line is there is no serious money in pool. At least not on this continent.

One day I tried to think of how many people or positions in the industry paid or made $100,000 a year. Looking at it that way is sobering. Almost everyone I know in the pool industry in this country is struggling. By struggling I mean only hanging on by their fingernails. Turning money to survive or going in debt seems to be the status quo.

One thing that is funny is that it seems when someone does find a way to make money in pool he/she is automatically looked on as a bad person. I have never seen a field of endeavor where someone succeeding is looked down upon like pool in this country. For instance I don't know how many times I have heard about all the money made from coin drop on tournaments. Evidently people think 40-200 pool tables magically pay for themselves and appear in a place for free. Numerous times I have asked people who complain questions like : What does it cost for fuel, tires, and insurance just on the truck that got the tables here? What does it cost to recover 200 pool tables a year? It's not hard to eat up the coin drop.

I see pool from both sides of the coin. The promoters and the players. The funny thing is each side thinks the other has it better. True story. I have heard promoters say "All the players have to do is show up, pay an entry, play their matches and then do whatever they want. I have to work for months ahead of time, risk many times a players expenses, and then work non-stop during the event and if it all goes well I get lucky and break even or make a few thousand dollars."

The players say "I have to pay travel, hotel, entry, play for a week solid against top players and then if all goes well I break even or make a few thousand dollars."

The thing is they both are kind of right.

The truth is the current tournament model just doesnt have enough money in it for anyone to do really well except for the elite players. Basically in this country you have hundreds of people (all the promoters and crews plus the "dead money" players who enter events) working to provide an opportunity for five people to make a living playing pool and 15 or 20 to hang on trying to make something happen.

I have said it before and until someone shows me different I'll keep believing it. Tournaments have not made financial sense for the last 30 years and they still don't today. Thats why the players are still playing for the same purses.

So why do promoters and players do it? I heard it put the best by Ric Jones of Bad Boys Billiard Productions a few weeks ago in Reno when we were setting up at midnight on Saturday. I was kind of b!tching like all pool people do about the money in the game and he said "Just shut up and accept it. Pool owns all of us."

 

[JAM]

Where you have to pay entry fees in advance. I am going to the brickyard tourney this month, and it will fill up early. It's only 64 players, but last time, 8 people showed the nite before, and could not get in. Getting players to show is tough, but getting them intersted in paying ahead of time, {especially if they ain't sure they will be paid} is an unbelievable task. Just look how hard it is to collect $25 from the AZ/One Pocket people for a room at the Derby. I understand someone wanting to put on a grand event,,, something kind of spectacular,,,, but if you don't have the backing in advance to pay off the players, cut things back. It makes the whole sport look shady, {and we have enough of that to deal with already}.

There's a tournament in western North Carolina each year, a bar box tournament, that has always been filling up long ahead of time. Players travel from far and wide to compete in this tournament.

Kevin Trudeau, though I will always believe his intentions were good, came with the vision to pour millions of dollars into pool to make it a legitimate sport. It failed but may have had a chance on a smaller scale monetarily speaking. The players came out of the woodwork to compete in the IPT, e.g., Matlock, Walden, Townsend, players who were not actively playing before the IPT was launched.

I believe Barry Behrman, et al., has always wanted to make pool shine as bright as he could, and he has welcomed and accommodated players from around the world, hoping to have a HUGE success. His heart is in the right place. In this regard, maybe having a smaller player field with the same cheese added would suffice. It is easier to plan an event with a *known* amount of money BEFOREHAND than "on the come."

Pool players are notorious for procrastinating when it comes to paying those entry fess, but Allen and Mike Z. seem to be able to have overcome this occupational hazard.

Smaller fields, same monies added, may be the ticket for the U.S. Open and other high-profile American events like this.

 

[JCIN]

Smaller fields, same monies added, may be the ticket for the U.S. Open and other high-profile American events like this.

I agree 100%.

Make the fields 64 or even 32. Longer races or round robin play. Make being a pro mean something. No clue how to make it work financially because I dont think it can but it seems doing the same thing over and over doesn't work.

 

[satman]

Nice post....

This isnt a point by point reply to your post but it did get me thinking about some things.

I can think of only one group or entity that makes any serious money off pool and that is the APA. BCA has become a trade group with declining membership and a trade show on life support. I don't know any truly wealthy promoters who made their money from pool and maybe 10 or so players make six figures a year. Bottom line is there is no serious money in pool. At least not on this continent.

One day I tried to think of how many people or positions in the industry paid or made $100,000 a year. Looking at it that way is sobering. Almost everyone I know in the pool industry in this country is struggling. By struggling I mean only hanging on by their fingernails. Turning money to survive or going in debt seems to be the status quo.

One thing that is funny is that it seems when someone does find a way to make money in pool he/she is automatically looked on as a bad person. I have never seen a field of endeavor where someone succeeding is looked down upon like pool in this country. For instance I don't know how many times I have heard about all the money made from coin drop on tournaments. Evidently people think 40-200 pool tables magically pay for themselves and appear in a place for free. Numerous times I have asked people who complain questions like : What does it cost for fuel, tires, and insurance just on the truck that got the tables here? What does it cost to recover 200 pool tables a year? It's not hard to eat up the coin drop.

I see pool from both sides of the coin. The promoters and the players. The funny thing is each side thinks the other has it better. True story. I have heard promoters say "All the players have to do is show up, pay an entry, play their matches and then do whatever they want. I have to work for months ahead of time, risk many times a players expenses, and then work non-stop during the event and if it all goes well I get lucky and break even or make a few thousand dollars."

The players say "I have to pay travel, hotel, entry, play for a week solid against top players and then if all goes well I break even or make a few thousand dollars."

The thing is they both are kind of right.

The truth is the current tournament model just doesnt have enough money in it for anyone to do really well except for the elite players. Basically in this country you have hundreds of people (all the promoters and crews plus the "dead money" players who enter events) working to provide an opportunity for five people to make a living playing pool and 15 or 20 to hang on trying to make something happen.

I have said it before and until someone shows me different I'll keep believing it. Tournaments have not made financial sense for the last 30 years and they still don't today. Thats why the players are still playing for the same purses.

So why do promoters and players do it? I heard it put the best by Ric Jones of Bad Boys Billiard Productions a few weeks ago in Reno when we were setting up at midnight on Saturday. I was kind of b!tching like all pool people do about the money in the game and he said "Just shut up and accept it. Pool owns all of us."

It's the same with all things in life, we need to step back, and look at both sides of the coin. If it looks like a promoter is making any kind of money at all, the players think they have a right to it. In reality, the players have a right to what they earn. It's a tough life, and costly for the players to travel, and try to win some money. But in the end, they are the ones who choose to do it. Maybe someday, the promoters, and the players, will both be able to make some money. At least we can dream about it.

 

[spktur]

And people ask me all the time.....why don't you go to that tounament??
Oh sure, can't wait!! Got to make It to what, the final 10 or 15 to break even.And then If I do, I might have to wait a few weeks or months to collect my $??? Think I'll just stay home and dig ditches and shovel manure. That way at least I know I will get the $. Boy, that really Is sad.
John Brumback

I'm with you John, no promoter should ever have to post date or reneg on payouts. The money should be there at post time.

 

[justnum]

In Poker the players are given credit at the beginning of tournaments in terms of chips and as the tournament ends the players redistribute chips to the winner. In poker the famous scene is pushing all your chips to the center of a table.

If pool were to have a traditional "cult" scene at tournaments the reasons for betting cash would be the scene I push to keep in the film. Let the players have the prize money at the beginning and watch what happens. In movieland the scene would continue as classic opportunities for players to bet on individual shots, challenge shots, break shots and in the end winner take all. Say a player sees a three rail kick and a two ball combo, opposing player says let's make a bet. Of course this scene would require organizers to have the prize money at the beginning of the tournament.

The hard thing to do is to find something too update the sport of billiards after hiccups like this. Since this was a points event the regulators have responsibilities and to help them out people could suggest something like request regulators ask organizers if they have prize money prior to the start of the event. It isn't much but an easy to implement solution and something to build on.

 

[ribdoner]

In Poker the players are given credit at the beginning of tournaments in terms of chips and as the tournament ends the players redistribute chips to the winner. In poker the famous scene is pushing all your chips to the center of a table.

If pool were to have a traditional "cult" scene at tournaments the reasons for betting cash would be the scene I push to keep in the film. Let the players have the prize money at the beginning and watch what happens. In movieland the scene would continue as classic opportunities for players to bet on individual shots, challenge shots, break shots and in the end winner take all. Say a player sees a three rail kick and a two ball combo, opposing player says let's make a bet. Of course this scene would require organizers to have the prize money at the beginning of the tournament.

The hard thing to do is to find something too update the sport of billiards after hiccups like this. Since this was a points event the regulators have responsibilities and to help them out people could suggest something like request regulators ask organizers if they have prize money prior to the start of the event. It isn't much but an easy to implement solution and something to build on.

NUMMY,

Cudo's on hittin it outa the park!! GR8 concept