Power draw shots and dropping the elbow
- Thread starter cuetechasaurus
- Start date
Becaus, contrary to popular opinion - the second derivative
of position does matter<velocity is the first derivative>
Dale
Scott Lee had it right earlier - Mike drops his elbow after contact on his stroke shots, that's just his stroking style and the result of the velocity he's imparting to the cue ball. Just like a fair amount of pros do after contact on power shots. It doesn't matter or do anything extra to the cue ball, just a result of the stroke speed and style. If his elbow rises or drops at all during the stroke, again that's not necessary to achieve the power draw but just a function of the "wind up" of the stroke and the fact that it's damn hard to keep everything perfectly level on a stroke that powerful. I'm positive his comment about dropping the elbow was to encourage people to have an unhindered, free flowing and high velocity stroke, which of course is difficult to do with the accuracy required to hit the cue ball that low, which of course is why he, Nevel, and a handful of others posess the stroke they do and the rest of us just watch and admire...
I for one have a hard time eliminating the elbow drop after contact on any but the simplest of shots - I've tried, and barely drop it on simple to medium speed shots, but I guess I learned the method of extending the cue down the line (and thus dropping the elbow) rather than elbow to the chest. I've worried about this in the past and tried to change, but it gets in my head more than making the shot so I've just relegated myself to be an elbow dropper for now...
Scott
I for one have a hard time eliminating the elbow drop after contact on any but the simplest of shots - I've tried, and barely drop it on simple to medium speed shots, but I guess I learned the method of extending the cue down the line (and thus dropping the elbow) rather than elbow to the chest. I've worried about this in the past and tried to change, but it gets in my head more than making the shot so I've just relegated myself to be an elbow dropper for now...
Scott
Scott Lee had it right earlier - Mike drops his elbow after contact on his stroke shots, that's just his stroking style and the result of the velocity he's imparting to the cue ball. Just like a fair amount of pros do after contact on power shots. It doesn't matter or do anything extra to the cue ball, just a result of the stroke speed and style. If his elbow rises or drops at all during the stroke, again that's not necessary to achieve the power draw but just a function of the "wind up" of the stroke and the fact that it's damn hard to keep everything perfectly level on a stroke that powerful. I'm positive his comment about dropping the elbow was to encourage people to have an unhindered, free flowing and high velocity stroke, which of course is difficult to do with the accuracy required to hit the cue ball that low, which of course is why he, Nevel, and a handful of others posess the stroke they do and the rest of us just watch and admire...
I for one have a hard time eliminating the elbow drop after contact on any but the simplest of shots - I've tried, and barely drop it on simple to medium speed shots, but I guess I learned the method of extending the cue down the line (and thus dropping the elbow) rather than elbow to the chest. I've worried about this in the past and tried to change, but it gets in my head more than making the shot so I've just relegated myself to be an elbow dropper for now...
Scott
I really think that the only way to keep the cue level, and it needs to be as level as possible on a draw shot, is to drop the elbow. The cue can only be level if the hand holding the cue drops to remain on plain with the stroke. imo
shootthebunnies
Registered
I just want to know how you can hit the cue ball that low without scooping (jumping) it? If I were to try that hitting it that low and hard someone would have a headache!
you have to hit through the cueball and not quit on the shot.
quitting on the shot, you will jump the cueball
The cue only needs to "be level" for a couple inches of travel - from just before until just after the tip hits the CB. You don't need to drop your elbow for that; you just need to set up so your arm is about vertical when you hit the CB.
pj
chgo
eze123...The key is a very loose grip on the cue, and the correct grip point on the cue, that matches up with the forearm being perpendicular to the cuestick, when the tip is touching the CB. Then add a relaxed backswing to a smooth transition for an accelerated forward stroke through the CB.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Lee,
Do you have any additional written information on improving one's stroke that you would care to share on the forum or via PM?
I've always admired the potting accuracy of snooker players.
Thanks,
JoeyA
What all of you need to realize is that the actual shot where he hits the shot and the later slow-motion videos are all different shots. None of them are the same literal shot.
Look at where the tip finishes on the normal speed shot where he shoots the draw shot and then look at the slow motion videos later in the video. None of them are identical.
One other thing: When he is explaining how he follows all the way through the shot, he is holding his cue in the position that he says is where he follows through to, but in the actual shot, his tip doesn't go nearly as far as he says he shoots it. His tip is waaay past the side pocket when he is talking, but when he shoots, his tip doesn't go anywhere nearly as far.
Look at where the tip finishes on the normal speed shot where he shoots the draw shot and then look at the slow motion videos later in the video. None of them are identical.
One other thing: When he is explaining how he follows all the way through the shot, he is holding his cue in the position that he says is where he follows through to, but in the actual shot, his tip doesn't go nearly as far as he says he shoots it. His tip is waaay past the side pocket when he is talking, but when he shoots, his tip doesn't go anywhere nearly as far.
I'm looking at it and even in slow mo I don't see enough to make me think "ok that's adding some serious draw juice".
Patrick you mentioned a 'trick' sort of involving intentional elbow drop to add zip to the break, which makes it harder to control? Is this one of those widely accepted but little known tricks?
Imagining this from a strictly mechanical point of view, I can see the idea. I certainly feel like I can swing harder/faster if I bring my arm (elbow included) back and then drive it forward (elbow dropping included). But it's almost like... this natural amount of voluntary drop is almost always there anyway, very few players LITERALLY move nothing but the forearm, and all of them drop if there's substantial force required.
I don't mean to sound like a jerk but this is making me think of 'snap your wrist to get better draw'... I don't see a special elbow dropping technique adding significant forward speed. The drop itself is more a vertical motion, and the forward motion of the forearm is what generates the speed. The drop just accomodates that. Where it happens in the swing probably has to do with how far away you choose to bridge from the CB. I guess you'd work backwards, figuring out where the swing is fastest (when the forearm is perfectly vertical?) and then positioning the CB right where the tip ends.
Another random thought, some people swear by torquing your hips as you break, the same way you would to generate extra power for a punch. I wonder if that could be a trick for megadraw?
Patrick you mentioned a 'trick' sort of involving intentional elbow drop to add zip to the break, which makes it harder to control? Is this one of those widely accepted but little known tricks?
Imagining this from a strictly mechanical point of view, I can see the idea. I certainly feel like I can swing harder/faster if I bring my arm (elbow included) back and then drive it forward (elbow dropping included). But it's almost like... this natural amount of voluntary drop is almost always there anyway, very few players LITERALLY move nothing but the forearm, and all of them drop if there's substantial force required.
I don't mean to sound like a jerk but this is making me think of 'snap your wrist to get better draw'... I don't see a special elbow dropping technique adding significant forward speed. The drop itself is more a vertical motion, and the forward motion of the forearm is what generates the speed. The drop just accomodates that. Where it happens in the swing probably has to do with how far away you choose to bridge from the CB. I guess you'd work backwards, figuring out where the swing is fastest (when the forearm is perfectly vertical?) and then positioning the CB right where the tip ends.
Another random thought, some people swear by torquing your hips as you break, the same way you would to generate extra power for a punch. I wonder if that could be a trick for megadraw?
Though I generally agree with Patrick's analysis here, your last comment is an interesting point. And I think you've solved a little mystery for me.
I've always wondered why some fast breakers have their forearm forward of vertical on the breakshot. I've assumed it for some reason helped their accuracy at that fast speed. But I think you've nailed the real reason.
At MM's set position you can see at 2:17 that his tip is remarkably close to the the cueball. If you keep stopping the video on his backstroke until you're stopped at the point where is forearm is vertical, you'll see the tip is 5-6 inches back from the cueball.
This means his forearm is forward of vertical at impact. Because of this, the shoulder motion in progress at that point DOES contribute to forward speed.
Same deal for breakshots I'm now thinking.
Although I think the principle is the same, breakshots get significantly more out of the elbow drop even without a forward grip because the breaker lifts his torso (stands up) during the shot stroke, straightening his arm and converting his elbow drop into forward motion.
When the shooter does not lift his torso during the shot stroke (or does it to a much smaller degree), then the elbow drop is not converted so thoroughly to forward motion, but it isn't purely downward motion either - it's a "horizontal pendulum". A forward grip would help, as you suggest.
pj
chgo
Questions
Even if you make contact before the elbow drops doesn't dropping the elbow allow you to accelerate through the CB at a greater rate of speed.
Meaning if I know I am not dropping my elbow subconsciously my forearm knows it is about to crash into my bicep and slows down. If I drop my elbow my forearm continues racing with no stop point in site. Dropping the elbow on power shots seems like a very natural motion to me and natural motions usually produce the best results.
I liken it to a pitcher who release the ball at the highest point of his deliver but finishes by almost touching the ground. If you told the pitches he had to stop his arm at his waist and throw as hard as he could he couldn't do it.
I feel like even though I make contact before the elbow drop all my power strokes have an elbow drop so I can finish the acceleration of the stroke.
I guess I may be wrong here but it works for me. Please let me know if I am nuts.
Even if you make contact before the elbow drops doesn't dropping the elbow allow you to accelerate through the CB at a greater rate of speed.
Meaning if I know I am not dropping my elbow subconsciously my forearm knows it is about to crash into my bicep and slows down. If I drop my elbow my forearm continues racing with no stop point in site. Dropping the elbow on power shots seems like a very natural motion to me and natural motions usually produce the best results.
I liken it to a pitcher who release the ball at the highest point of his deliver but finishes by almost touching the ground. If you told the pitches he had to stop his arm at his waist and throw as hard as he could he couldn't do it.
I feel like even though I make contact before the elbow drop all my power strokes have an elbow drop so I can finish the acceleration of the stroke.
I guess I may be wrong here but it works for me. Please let me know if I am nuts.
Here is a video that was just posted yesterday on this very topic. The guy in the video executes the shot without dropping his elbow at all. I don't know what the advantage is, but he seems to have some pretty detailed analysis that he goes into...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GsRIPSTWfo
/wtf is with the oysters?
No. Nothing you can do "allows you to accelerate through the CB" after contact, because the CB is gone a millisecond or two after contact, before your followthrough has a chance to happen.
pj
chgo
The oyster is a loser who got voted off the AZB island some time ago. He fancies himself a pool instructor but he's about 95% full of shít. The other 5 percent may or may not be legitimately useful instruction, but mostly he's just trying to ride the coattails of better players (or, in this case, trying to make himself look good by trying to make mike massey look bad). I wouldn't give any of his videos even a second of my attention. He likes to draw little lines and gradients in photoshop and superimpose them on videos of people who can actually stroke a ball in a lame attempt to wow you with pseudo-geometry.
Lol, yeah...I just did a search on the forums for his name. I watched some of his other videos and while he might be a good player they were nothing short of comical...
I find this thread a bit sillier than most because Mike Massey has found that he can’t execute the shot as well if attempting to maintain a stable elbow and has told us so. Did you think he was lying? Wouldn’t he know if he could or if he couldn’t? I not only found this out the same day I’d tested the idea of a stable elbow years ago, I’d been teaching my students how to ignore the idea of the stable elbow on certain shots ever since.
Believe every student I’ve found having problems on this subject explained, “but this goes against what they taught me in school.” Why do I find this one a bit silly? Because all one has to do is got to the table and find out for themselves!
It’s much like those in the seaside villages many years ago, in certain parts of the world, watching the fishing boats disappear every morning from the bottom up ‘til all they saw were the tops of the sails and reappear hours later in reverse, and yet went along with the agreement that the world was flat. I don’t want to take all the time required to attempt to prove this elbow business to you on paper for it is so easily proven for yourself by just testing shots out both ways.
Yes, I’m not very popular with the pool schools; have not been for a long time now and am sorry it has to be this way. I simply care more about the great many wanting so badly to improve than those who teach other despite knowing they are not even near qualified to do so.
For a better game of pool AND STRAIGHTER SHOOTING,
Eddie Robin
Well, I finally returned with full plate of spaghetti and sausage expecting to see how badly my post had been attacked and see absolutely nothing! No replies as yet? Wow! Well, I'll tempt fate a bit further and explain a bit more about what has been pushed out there by the experts; if the less moving part was the sole, or even most significant factor, regarding why the stable elbow helps as it does, we wouldn't very easily be able to reach for the wall and stick a finger into a hole--TOO MANY MOVING PARTS!
Now that we have AZ Billiards (serious about that by the way), what the billiard world now needs most is a really good book on fundamentals! No, I'm not pushing a book that is about to be released. I won't be able to get to such a book published for years. I'm just wanting many of you guys to understand that you've been learning from people that just don't even know fundamentals. However, they do have impressive reps and certificates.
Another thing; how many of you guys are learning about strategy in one-pocket yet have never run 50 in 14.1? How many can't even average 75% on spot-shots on the tables you play on? How many have learned trig before long division? Or how many could possibly think about swimming the English Channel before making across a wide river with current? Got my point?
Now I can rest assured that the attack will be here first thing in the morning!
Eddie R