PRO PLAYERS AND INSTRUCTORS - Why the controversy?

[JoeyA]

and maybe you are right, your other quotes didn't literally include "snake oil salesmen" but things along the same lines - late night infomercials, kevin trudeau style, etc which all imply pretty much the same thing as snake oil salesman

It's interesting to see that a lot of people who have been silent about some of the jealous, slanderous talk on this forum are now setting the record straight.

It's refreshing to see some back-bone candor coming from some of the less vocal posters in this forum. The mean-spirited bitterness that has plagued this forum for years seems to have been muzzled, at least for the time being. It's been a long time coming as others have mentioned. It looks like there is hope for these forums after all.[/B]

EasyEJL, you're not the only one that thinks this way.

 

[TheThaiger]

Sometimes it is the guy who is willing to state his opinion against the system who adds the most productivity of all to the conversation, regardless of wether he or his opinion is popular at the time or not. Both PJ and Lou have contributed a lot of productivity imo.

And their insults have been no worse than C.J.'s or in fact your own comment in this thread.

CJ himself has stated that it is because of his interaction on here that he has been able to clarify, in his own mind and in others, his TOI technique and I cant help but think that PJ played a big part in that.

Well said. It would be a nice gesture if CJ asked the mods to reconsider.

 

[Mr. Wilson]

Well said. It would be a nice gesture if CJ asked the mods to reconsider.

In reality, I didn't consult CJ or Stan nor any other instructor prior to making my decision. Why then would their gesture make an impact?

There are several years worth of argument leading up to this.

Same guys, same argument, same baiting, same names being called....for years.

If you think it boils down to just one guy making one comment that went over the line, you are misinformed.


The detractors from whatever system have always been invited to start their own threads showing their techniques to the public. They are not invited to come into another's thread and begin the attack. Never have been.

As a result, there will be people getting bans of a longer and longer consequence if they can't follow along.

 

[CJ Wiley]

You, just like I, MUST think differently about the Game for it to change

It's interesting to see that a lot of people who have been silent about some of the jealous, slanderous talk on this forum are now setting the record straight.

It's refreshing to see some back-bone candor coming from some of the less vocal posters in this forum. The mean-spirited bitterness that has plagued this forum for years seems to have been muzzled, at least for the time being. It's been a long time coming as others have mentioned. It looks like there is hope for these forums after all.[/B]

EasyEJL, you're not the only one that thinks this way.

Yes, I respect everyone's opinion and have answered thousands of questions between the public forum, the pm's and all my Face Book activity in the last 5 months. Yes, LITERALLY thousands of questions. My Face Book/You Tube/Googe reach alone is over 70k pool players a week.

On AZ, I'm not sure but I would think it's in the thousands as well. We own and operate 12 web sites and 9 Face Book accounts, including fan pages, athlete's pages and our own personal ones. Our #1 Outcome with this Internet "Reach" is to promote pool and bring it back to public awareness.

My interest on AZBILLIARDS is to promote pool and help shift perceptions of what pool is and how anyone can "break through" to the next level of performance. It's my opinion, you will not do it the way you currently are (doing the same things give us the same results), something must change or "shift". You, like I did, must think differently about the Game for it to change, both mentally and physically. From my experience this is universal.

Being "stuck" at a certain level of play is usually from the way you think about the Game, and when I get "strong objections" this proves that I'm helping this person with this "shift". Although it may, in the process make the person feel certain strong emotions - sometimes negative, sometimes positive. This is required to make changes, without some kind of "pain" there's seldom any type of "gain". 'The Game Will Be Your Teacher' CJ Wiley

 

[CJ Wiley]

We all want the Game to grow and prosper because it will produce a positive effect

Well said. It would be a nice gesture if CJ asked the mods to reconsider.

I have never or will I ever seek to contact a "moderator". I understand the rules and regulations they use and understand why they're essential. I don't know neal, pj, duckie or lou and would still be cordial if we meet in person. I respect their opinions and even respect that I may not be their favorite person in the whole wide world.

I've never stated that my opinions, techniques or systems are the only ones (that would be ridiculous), I've just stated with certainly that I use them, and they have produced outstanding results. I'll continue to learn from the champion players and share these experiences when appropriate. There are still things that we discuss that they don't want shared publicly and I always accommodate their desires for discretion on some matters.

We all want the Game to grow and prosper because it will produce a positive effect on our individual lives. I don't want to be known as "right," I want to be know as always trying to do the "right thing." 'The Game and Experience is My Teacher'Yes, the TOI Video is 90 Minutes of JUST TOI Information, explanations, and demonstrations....it's as extensive a video as possible without getting to the super advanced techniques (which you won't need for awhile), like you will see Efren, Earl, Johnny or I hit in our matches.

We don't all think of it as "TOI", however we can all execute these shots and understand how the deflection and spin effect shots, especially ones that are hit very firm or spun very quickly.

Thanks, the PPV will be up right after lunch TODAY.....ALOHA.....CJ Wiley

 

[lfigueroa]

Sometimes it is the guy who is willing to state his opinion against the system who adds the most productivity of all to the conversation, regardless of wether he or his opinion is popular at the time or not. Both PJ and Lou have contributed a lot of productivity imo.

And their insults have been no worse than C.J.'s or in fact your own comment in this thread.

CJ himself has stated that it is because of his interaction on here that he has been able to clarify, in his own mind and in others, his TOI technique and I cant help but think that PJ played a big part in that.

Thanks, (((Satori))).

Lou Figueroa

 

[TheThaiger]

In reality, I didn't consult CJ or Stan nor any other instructor prior to making my decision. Why then would their gesture make an impact?

I chose the word "gesture" carefully. To be magnanimous in victory is to be admired.

The detractors from whatever system have always been invited to start their own threads showing their techniques to the public. They are not invited to come into another's thread and begin the attack. Never have been.

Are you saying I can start a thread called "send me $500 and I'll give you a secret that will make you a million" and you'll ban people for questioning my methods within that thread? Cool!

If nothing else, this place is for open and honest exchange of information, isn't it? With pool being a complex game and an inexact science, there are bound to be legitimate differences of opinion. With discussion comes argument, as sure as night follows day. The important thing is to allow both, for truth will flourish as long as it's allowed to. This principle applies equally to both sides, but, as with everything else in life, the burden of proof lies squarely with those that have something to sell.

The good will out if you let it.

 

[(((Satori)))]

Thanks, (((Satori))).

Lou Figueroa

You're welcome.

The last thing this forum needs is automatic banning for stating an opinion that is not popular.

I have read back through some of both yours and pj's posts and feel that you were honest in what you posted. You may have pissed a lot of people off but I don't feel like that was your intention. I think overall you both tried to be factual and even respectful. Sometimes the conversations went off track and posts were made simply to insult but the insults came from both sides of the arguement. That sometimes happen when people have opinions so strong. I feel as though PJ was warned he was in danger to be banned simply because he was on the wrong side of the arguement and he had pissed off the most people. If he had used the same method of argueing for the other side then I think he would still be here.

 

[EasyEJL]

Are you saying I can start a thread called "send me $500 and I'll give you a secret that will make you a million" and you'll ban people for questioning my methods within that thread? Cool!

If nothing else, this place is for open and honest exchange of information, isn't it? With pool being a complex game and an inexact science, there are bound to be legitimate differences of opinion. With discussion comes argument, as sure as night follows day. The important thing is to allow both, for truth will flourish as long as it's allowed to. This principle applies equally to both sides, but, as with everything else in life, the burden of proof lies squarely with those that have something to sell.

The good will out if you let it.

its not about questioning the method, its about being an ass in the process.

 

[TheThaiger]

its not about questioning the method, its about being an ass in the process.

That is relative and subjective. It's a matter of opinion, and why strong and impartial moderation is a necessity around here.

 

[EasyEJL]

That is relative and subjective. It's a matter of opinion, and why strong and impartial moderation is a necessity around here.

no, you are simply wrong. A person who probably can't shoot a full rack in 14.1 telling a world champion they are out of their mind, full of crap, selling snake oil, etc and not giving anything specific in terms of why they think the system can't possibly work (without having tried the system themselves) is just being nasty and disrespectful. They can question the method without attacking the individual.

You put up that you are selling your system for making $500 into a million and the first thing i'll as is for you to show a bank account with a million in it. The piece that is different here is that most of the people who are selling info on systems have put most of the info in descriptive text for free, or at least enough for you to be able to tell it may or may not work for you.

 

[TheThaiger]

no, you are simply wrong. A person who probably can't shoot a full rack in 14.1 telling a world champion they are out of their mind, full of crap, selling snake oil, etc and not giving anything specific in terms of why they think the system can't possibly work (without having tried the system themselves) is just being nasty and disrespectful. They can question the method without attacking the individual.

I don't think anyone has said that, or at least i didn't see it. PJ used withering put-downs, but so what? If this were a British board, he'd have been kicked off for being too wussy rather than being too nasty.

You put up that you are selling your system for making $500 into a million and the first thing i'll as is for you to show a bank account with a million in it. The piece that is different here is that most of the people who are selling info on systems have put most of the info in descriptive text for free, or at least enough for you to be able to tell it may or may not work for you.

Firstly, any shyster worth his salt could show a bank account with a mill in it, so that's no measure of worth. Secondly, if any new system works *WORKS* it should be easily testable, particularly for those with the basic fundamentals to demonstrate it. No system, as far as I'm aware, works * WORKS*, and I'll be highly surprised if one ever does. If it works for *you*, then fine, but that's a world away from saying this new system is now best practice, and should be used by all.

 

[whitewolf]

I can see that I should have stuck to my original knee jerk reaction that was to ban Lou.
He'd been put on notice and it didn't take him 24 hours to revert to form.

Guys are right. I shouldn't have inferred that he's a NIT.
I should have just disciplined him accordingly.


For future reference, Lou and detractors...take note.
If you are in an aiming thread and you are not a productive part of the conversation and I determine that you are merely arguing and baiting the people that are here to learn from whomever.....I will not make comment.

I will act.

This is going into effect immediately. January 24th. 5:48PM EST.

Just curious - is this thread an aiming thread?

 

[EasyEJL]

I don't think anyone has said that, or at least i didn't see it. PJ used withering put-downs, but so what? If this were a British board, he'd have been kicked off for being too wussy rather than being too nasty.

perhaps that explains why you have a violent crime level 4x any other developed nation

Firstly, any shyster worth his salt could show a bank account with a mill in it, so that's no measure of worth. Secondly, if any new system works *WORKS* it should be easily testable, particularly for those with the basic fundamentals to demonstrate it. No system, as far as I'm aware, works * WORKS*, and I'll be highly surprised if one ever does. If it works for *you*, then fine, but that's a world away from saying this new system is now best practice, and should be used by all.

I haven't heard any of the pros/instructors that have systems saying that its best practice for everyone. Pool is a game of finesse and small details (you do play right?) and so just how your vision works, how far apart your eyes are, etc etc etc have so much effect. Even how your imagination works in terms of seeing the train tracks vs ghost ball can make a huge difference. There isn't ever going to be any single system that works optimally for all individuals, just like there isn't a single training system that works optimally for all football players.

 

[grindz]

I'm starting to see the "REAL" secret...

I have never or will I ever seek to contact a "moderator". I understand the rules and regulations they use and understand why they're essential. I don't know neal, pj, duckie or lou and would still be cordial if we meet in person. I respect their opinions and even respect that I may not be their favorite person in the whole wide world.

I've never stated that my opinions, techniques or systems are the only ones (that would be ridiculous), I've just stated with certainly that I use them, and they have produced outstanding results. I'll continue to learn from the champion players and share these experiences when appropriate. There are still things that we discuss that they don't want shared publicly and I always accommodate their desires for discretion on some matters.

We all want the Game to grow and prosper because it will produce a positive effect on our individual lives. I don't want to be known as "right," I want to be know as always trying to do the "right thing." 'The Game and Experience is My Teacher'Yes, the TOI Video is 90 Minutes of JUST TOI Information, explanations, and demonstrations....it's as extensive a video as possible without getting to the super advanced techniques (which you won't need for awhile), like you will see Efren, Earl, Johnny or I hit in our matches.

We don't all think of it as "TOI", however we can all execute these shots and understand how the deflection and spin effect shots, especially ones that are hit very firm or spun very quickly.

Thanks, the PPV will be up right after lunch TODAY.....ALOHA.....CJ Wiley

we can keep it as our little 'inside' secret..... it's about using the ignore button and Mr. Miyaji's methods...... Right?! :wink:


td

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I chose the word "gesture" carefully. To be magnanimous in victory is to be admired.



Are you saying I can start a thread called "send me $500 and I'll give you a secret that will make you a million" and you'll ban people for questioning my methods within that thread? Cool!

Wilson doesn't care... go ahead He already knows there'd be no one to ban since everyone would be next door partying in the "I'll Tell You Thaigers $500 Secret ***Only $250***" thread.


Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

 

[KRJ]

Are you saying I can start a thread called "send me $500 and I'll give you a secret that will make you a million" and you'll ban people for questioning my methods within that thread? Cool!

Start a thread for $2 pool secrets and I bet you don't make enough to buy a warm beer and a stale chip !! C'mon,, do it .. just do it..

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Start a thread for $2 pool secrets and I bet you don't make enough to buy a warm beer and a stale chip !! C'mon,, do it .. just do it..

How could you do that to me????



Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

 

[KRJ]

How could you do that to me????



Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

What, you wanted Thaiger all to yourself

 

[CJ Wiley]

they never gave any of my suggestions or techniques any serious time at the table

Sometimes it is the guy who is willing to state his opinion against the system who adds the most productivity of all to the conversation, regardless of wether he or his opinion is popular at the time or not. Both PJ and Lou have contributed a lot of productivity imo.

And their insults have been no worse than C.J.'s or in fact your own comment in this thread.

CJ himself has stated that it is because of his interaction on here that he has been able to clarify, in his own mind and in others, his TOI technique and I cant help but think that PJ played a big part in that.

That is correct, however, looking back and honestly evaluating the process I'd say *% and *#%* were last and next to last in positive influence. For the most part they were just trying to stall, sabotage, and/or discredit everything without experiencing it.

I'm certain they never gave any of my suggestions or techniques any serious time at the table or there questions would have had more substance. And Lou, well, Lou's eyes are too bad to see that it simply didn't fit into his "belief system".