Pro Pool players courting disaster

[JCIN]

That's new to me and wouldn't be a big shocker for sure! That'll add a whole new twist to see what happens. I was told the players were getting paid throughout the delay of building and problems. The pro players were "salaried" of sorts was my understanding. At any rate, with as little pool related stuff going around the US, everyone should collaborate with each other to assure they are all working together. But then again, why make it easy?

The players got paid for coming out the last time it was supposed to launch and didnt. It was three weeks pay if I remember right. Far as I know they have been paid nothing since which they shouldn't have because they didnt do any work.

It was a smart move to pay them last year because I believe they would of jumped ship right there if Bonus Ball didnt do something to show good faith.

 

[Fatboy]

I agree 100% with the Vegas factor. Its something I dont think many people who have not seen it first hand understand completely. For Bonus ball to succeed they don't really need all of the top guys. The people they will need to sell it to in order to survive have no idea at all who is good and who isn't. If it survives they can pretty much make their own stars out of the guys who are able to do whats needed for a show like that.

The money in Bonus Ball is great for guys who don't consistently finish in top of big events. Its not so great for the guys who do but it appears to be steady which draws them. Like I said I don't fault any of them for taking a shot. Its their decision to make so more power to them.

I'm reluctant to use a name, but since we both know him and he is cool I'm going to use him as a example just theoretical : Bartrum

Thanks Chris:smile:


He is a great player, but isn't out going to China, etc winning monster events. He can play at that level(he did on me-played perfect missed one ball in 1 hour and 15 minutes,) at times, but he is one click under the top guys. He can handle Vegas, he plays poker and isnt a degenerate. Dont use dope or other vices. So should he decide to move to Vegas he would be the perfect BB player cause he has the ability to play at a high level and not have the distractions of Vegas. This is ASSUMING he would be willing to leave Ohio.


I dont think Chris wants to move from Ohio, thats his call. But he is the kind of player that BB will be great for, It is difficult for players who want to chase the big World events or have to appear at them like the thing coming up that Shuff and Archer are going to-the World Games.

There are people out there that will be great for BB and not rob all the talent from pool, it wont divide pool either. There will be the BB players and the pro's.

I have had this thought for a long time i just didnt say anything

Thanks CB for letting me use you as a example only, Chris is my friend and I figure he will be ok with it.


best
eric


PS: i really do hope it all works out.

 

[Fatboy]

I agree 100% with the Vegas factor. Its something I dont think many people who have not seen it first hand understand completely. For Bonus ball to succeed they don't really need all of the top guys. The people they will need to sell it to in order to survive have no idea at all who is good and who isn't. If it survives they can pretty much make their own stars out of the guys who are able to do whats needed for a show like that.

The money in Bonus Ball is great for guys who don't consistently finish in top of big events. Its not so great for the guys who do but it appears to be steady which draws them. Like I said I don't fault any of them for taking a shot. Its their decision to make so more power to them.

Very well said, buddy!!

 

[Fast Lenny]

Lenny I realize you are on the money train so I dont really hold that against you. You are just keeping the sucker happy like a good hustler does. However if you want to put my name in the mix then we can call a spade a spade.

I do have a problem with exhibition matches that promote some fake prize fund or just have the players chop the prize fund. Like Bonus Ball did with their six man event years back where all six guys decided to chop the money before the event started because no one knew the rules and the promoter was cool with it.

When I switched from action matches to the current format it was simply copying the same model the UFC, boxing, and numerous other sports employ. The winner gets more than the loser. Meaning they are playing for something. I realize $1500-$2000 difference is nothing to a baller like you but in my experience players will play hard for that amount.

I have tried to keep personal shit out of this Bonus Ball cluster but if you want to take it there we can.

Sorry you took it personally about me calling the TAR matches exhibitions, we can call them challenge matches if you like but both players are being paid to play, one gets more then the other like many of the challenge/exhibition matches in the past. I was actually complimenting you on going from action matches which are hard to get set up and one player wins money and the other player has nothing to these matches with both players make money for doing a job which is to play great pool.

I believe the players play hard in the TAR matches and we have seen some great pool, is it different then a gambling match?, sure and people have voiced that. Calling a spade is a spade is the fact that you stated being against exhibition matches and now are putting them on is all I said and have quoted below. I am not saying that is a bad thing but a good thing you switched over because the old formula did not work as with pro pool currently which is why change is needed. If you can change what you were doing then so can other promoters to make pro pool a success.

As for me being just about money well you do not know me too well and those who do know me understand I am not. Scott Frost asked me awhile back why I was doing all this streaming for nothing and I said because I love the game, he was trying to figure out my angle which in pool it seems everyone has one. I love pool and actually play pool, my little contribution to the game cost me money with all my time streaming but I wanted to give to the game rather then just take. I donate money, cues, DVDs and other stuff for benefits and fundraisers every year because it feels good to give.

I am happy to be a part of Bonus Ball and not just for the money I am being paid to work but because if it works and pro pool is thriving again then I will have played a small part in it and I believe Nathan and Dave feel the same way. I am glad to be a part of something positive with positive people involved in it trying to do something new and fresh, it might actually work too. :smile:

We know its not perfect but until someone decides to put up $10K for the guys to play for it is what it is. But even then it would not be real action it would be an exhibition. Catch 22.

None of our matches are exhibition matches. Never have been never will be.

Does $5,000 challenge match mean that the players are putting up $5,000 each and the winner takes all or are the promoters putting up $5,000 and the players playing for it?

IMO one is a challenge match and one is an exhibition. Just trying to figure which is going off here.

I like the idea of the guys having something to lose otherwise it is just an exhibition which would be cool but not as cool as a real action match and the heat that comes with it.

In my mind we are not competing with the IPT or so far anyone else. To this date as far as I know we are the only ones doing REAL action matches. Everyone else has done exhibitions. That is a big distinction in my mind.

As Fatboy said in an earlier thread it is gravy to put up $15K and have 2 guys play....but to what end. It is then simply an exhibition which is fine but it is absolutely not the same thing as an action match to me.

The action part is what makes putting games together so hard, because of the fact someone IS going to lose money. The other side to that coin is that when one does go off it means something.

Imagine if every player on a MLB team had to wager a percentage of their salary on each game they played...(ok so Pete did that)...and that if they lose they get nothing (except for a piece of the gate and DVD money down the road ). It would make it a little more interesting....lot less mailing it in.

To me the beauty of the action match is its purity....you perform and overcome, you win money and recognition....you come up short you get nothing (except for a piece of the gate and DVD money down the road )

Gladiators baby !

Uhhh...did I miss something?

EDIT: Never mind I got it. I am not a fan of matches where someone just puts up a prize and 2 people play. That is an exhibition in my mind. Which is better than nothing, don't get me wrong. Anytime people can see pros play it is great. Just not what I like to watch.

As far as being bad for the game....anyone playing the game anywhere is good for the game.

Challenge matches..???? Hmmmm..that is a good idea. They may be onto something.

Of course there is no real Challenge per se. It is an exhibition match pure and simple.

 

[Fatboy]

This is spot on. I looked at the Seminole Tour and it folded, they have an endless supply of money but obviously it just did not work for them. Maybe a big corporation could come along and buy pro pool for promotional purposes of a product. The numbers might not be there for pool on TV in the US but worldwide it is much bigger in other places.

i'll tell you about that later, it was because of other factors.

 

[Fatboy]

as far as JCIN changing his biz model, is a different topic than BB.


I think BB will change

i changed my biz models many times, what someone said last year cant be held against them.

pool needs to learn to forgive and change with the times, not destroy each other.

 

[jalapus logan]

J

Jay , I agree Mark and Greg do a tremendous amount for pool. Don't you think having a open mind is fair enough. Pool needs new input, And why can't you believe that this is opportunity pool has never seen. I wish I could tell the future but I can't. Give this a chance is my thoughts.
Im sure Mark and Greg hope Bonus Ball is a success. It would mean pool table sales and league play could increase also. This is the 1st time I can recall that there is a real facility built for pool.
Pool players and promoters have added a lot of money to tournaments, Including myself. Lets give it a chance Jay. A lot of people respect your opinion, Including me.
Gary Lutman

Well, it is certainly not Bonus Ball's intent to have any new table sales be Diamond or Brunswicks, that is for sure, as per this press release, they have confirmed Rasson Billiards Tables of China as their official sponsor. Seems to me that domestic manufacturers (I guess only Diamond would qualify under this description) stand to lose out along with other established promoters.

As to increased league activity, I would say there would be little. I play in two 8 ball leauges (BCA and ACS) and I can assure you that most if not all league players have no interest in playing in a Bonus Ball league. Just a bit more food for thought.

 

[ghostball]

Well Jay you hit the nail on the head.
Ray

 

[JCIN]

Sorry you took it personally about me calling the TAR matches exhibitions, we can call them challenge matches if you like but both players are being paid to play, one gets more then the other like many of the challenge/exhibition matches in the past. I was actually complimenting you on going from action matches which are hard to get set up and one player wins money and the other player has nothing to these matches with both players make money for doing a job which is to play great pool.

I believe the players play hard in the TAR matches and we have seen some great pool, is it different then a gambling match?, sure and people have voiced that. Calling a spade is a spade is the fact that you stated being against exhibition matches and now are putting them on is all I said and have quoted below. I am not saying that is a bad thing but a good thing you switched over because the old formula did not work as with pro pool currently which is why change is needed. If you can change what you were doing then so can other promoters to make pro pool a success.

As for me being just about money well you do not know me too well and those who do know me understand I am not. Scott Frost asked me awhile back why I was doing all this streaming for nothing and I said because I love the game, he was trying to figure out my angle which in pool it seems everyone has one. I love pool and actually play pool, my little contribution to the game cost me money with all my time streaming but I wanted to give to the game rather then just take. I donate money, cues, DVDs and other stuff for benefits and fundraisers every year because it feels good to give.

I am happy to be a part of Bonus Ball and not just for the money I am being paid to work but because if it works and pro pool is thriving again then I will have played a small part in it and I believe Nathan and Dave feel the same way. I am glad to be a part of something positive with positive people involved in it trying to do something new and fresh, it might actually work too. :smile:

Yup I said all that and at the time I meant it. I also said matches with prize funds are better than nothing didnt I? Thats exactly what TAR would be doing now too if I had to go drum up $20K in action for a match.

No Efren vs Shane, no Busty vs Shane, no Busty vs Alex, basically every match that has happened in the last two years would not have taken place. So yes I used to prefer action matches over prize funds. That changed as the years passed and my tolerance for bullshit receded at a rapid rate. Please go spend another thirty minutes searching and show me where I have ever said the new format is the same as an action match. I haven't. I have been honest and open about everything the whole way. Others should do the same.

Now that thats settled. Lets talk about that million dollar prize fund. Is it there ? Oh thats right....thats not your concern. You just want to promote the game without any of those messy details.

 

[jalapus logan]

Well Jay you hit the nail on the head.
Ray

This is just a random, but well deserved plug for The 99 Critical Shots in Pool. Requisite reading for aspiring players of any caliber. Well done Mr. Martin!

(not trying to derail this discussion...)

 

[real bartram]

Yup I said all that and at the time I meant it. I also said matches with prize funds are better than nothing didnt I? Thats exactly what TAR would be doing now too if I had to go drum up $20K in action for a match.

No Efren vs Shane, no Busty vs Shane, no Busty vs Alex, basically every match that has happened in the last two years would not have taken place. So yes I used to prefer action matches over prize funds. That changed as the years passed and my tolerance for bullshit receded at a rapid rate. Please go spend another thirty minutes searching and show me where I have ever said the new format is the same as an action match. I haven't. I have been honest and open about everything the whole way. Others should do the same.

Now that thats settled. Lets talk about that million dollar prize fund. Is it there ? Oh thats right....thats not your concern. You just want to promote the game without any of those messy details.

Ill play you a set of bonus ball
And I don't know how to play it
It's going to save pool

 

[JCIN]

Ill play you a set of bonus ball
And I don't know how to play it
It's going to save pool

You have to spot me two purples, an orange, one boner ball and I get Disco to coach me.

Together we can fix pool.

 

[CreeDo]

I feel kind of sorry for Bonus Ball.

It only had like a 1% chance of succeeding even if all the money's there and everything went smoothly.
Now some heavy hitters like Jay Helfert are coming straight out and saying
"keep away from this, you'll get screwed".

I don't know that it was really necessary to take a machine gun to the baby seal.
The only draw bonus ball has going for it is like 10 famous players and
if Jay actually convinced any of them to quit, it'd shrink that 1% chance to near 0.

Just seems like overkill, nothing's so fragile that if those ten guys skip some tournaments,
it all falls apart.

 

[Fast Lenny]

as far as JCIN changing his biz model, is a different topic than BB.


I think BB will change

i changed my biz models many times, what someone said last year cant be held against them.

pool needs to learn to forgive and change with the times, not destroy each other.

That is exactly my point that TAR changed its business model and I think its more successful so I believe other promoters can also so the players make money and they also make more money too.

 

[Fast Lenny]

Yup I said all that and at the time I meant it. I also said matches with prize funds are better than nothing didnt I? Thats exactly what TAR would be doing now too if I had to go drum up $20K in action for a match.

No Efren vs Shane, no Busty vs Shane, no Busty vs Alex, basically every match that has happened in the last two years would not have taken place. So yes I used to prefer action matches over prize funds. That changed as the years passed and my tolerance for bullshit receded at a rapid rate. Please go spend another thirty minutes searching and show me where I have ever said the new format is the same as an action match. I haven't. I have been honest and open about everything the whole way. Others should do the same.

Now that thats settled. Lets talk about that million dollar prize fund. Is it there ? Oh thats right....thats not your concern. You just want to promote the game without any of those messy details.

Like I said before Justin and I think you are missing my point which I was complimenting you on. You changed your business model with success I believe and I wish others in pool would do the same so the players can make some decent money and the promoters can also make more money. Just because some are opposed to an idea does not mean that their mind will not change as yours did and possibly lead to success as Bonus Ball might. Not everyone is right all the time Justin and its okay to be wrong.

As for the prize fund as I said its not my business or place to verify the money, that is up to the players and they do not seem worried especially when there is nothing that has been done to make the financials questionable when the players were paid over 100K already. It is not Barry Behrman running the show here so the track record so far is good. I highly doubt that they would spend around a million dollars already to fold up after a month or two and not seeing it all the way through the first season so I believe the money is there. Some people in pool are always waiting to see who screws who over or what the angle is because it is expected but not always the case, instead of being negative I will be thinking positive.

 

[jay helfert]

I am very sad that we all can't get along!!!

Jay Helfert has very eloquently and passionately given the players some GOOD advise. What they do with it is up to them! You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink!

The players need to make the EFFORT to work this out. I have not heard ONE pro player offer up solutions to the double booking problem. No one has offered to play bonus ball twice in one week in exchange for the week off! No one has offered to play bonus ball the week prior and record it! No one has offered to sign confidentiality clause not to disclose the winner of the delayed broadcast if that is an issue. WHERE THERE IS A WILL THERE IS A WAY!!!

The burden is on the Pro Players to seek out these concessions and offer something of substance in exchange. Lets face it, as good as Mark and Greg have been to the players they are obligated to bend over backwards to make this work out.

As fans I would BOYCOTT the bonus ball broadcast the weeks of the conflicting tournaments if they will not support the players right to earn a living by attending these events!

The UPA and Johnny needs to step up on this ISSUE! He needs to think outside the box and make some concrete suggestions. The players need to sell Bonus Ball on the benefits of them attending these tournaments. The international coverage it will obtain the cross marketing and exposure of the Bonus Ball product and brand.

The players could have an agreement to wear an approved bonus ball shirt and logo with the Bonus ball website on the back like www.alexpagulayan.com has on his appearances.

Johnny or Charlie or Brandon Shuff needs to step up and inquire what the nature of the Bonus Ball's objections to player attendance??? Once the players know the Bonus Ball's reasons for concern or objectives??? Then they can make the appropriate concessions to alleviate those concerns.

Until the Pro Players step up the promoters and fans will be in limbo waiting for them to grow some Balls!!!

KD

Great post!

 

[jay helfert]

Back years ago I thought the sport was coming along well and there would be a pro tour coming with it--not as high paying as golf but there would be a tour that would support the players enough to make a good living--with times as they are now and most of the rooms gone the way of the dinosaur's,,the players need somthing even more now--hope it works out for the best is all one can hope for.

Jay,,a question--when RJ Reynolds was sued--was it because of the Strickland Runnout?

No, it was over money and control of the tour. Mackey tried to claim it was "his" tour, because the players came from the MPBA/PBT. Bottom line, he wanted a piece of the pie and he wasn't getting it from Camel.

 

[1 Lone Wolf]

Great post!

Where is pool now with the old timers running the show. ( SHIT ) I am a old timer, But I don't wear blinders. I have been around a long time also, And I completely disagree with people that think they are know it all's. Including Jay. WTF Jay, Give it a chance and don't say you have seen it before, Because this IS an opportunity pool has never had. It is a chance..........................
Gary

 

[flyvirginiaguy]

Camel shut down the tour the following year

And can't say I blame em... But for players to back an individual over a $$$$ Company willing to work with the industry and even start it's own tour is idiotic to be nice about it. Promotions like that could have led to even more interest from other companies as well. I am sure this and many other reasons is why big business want touch pool.

 

[stevelomako]

as far as JCIN changing his biz model, is a different topic than BB.


I think BB will change

i changed my biz models many times, what someone said last year cant be held against them.

pool needs to learn to forgive and change with the times, not destroy each other.

Hey bro, we need to save this for a Barry Behrman (BB) thread.


I think if Barry see's this he's going to start telling people "Fatboy's on my side", look what he wrote about me.