Pro Pool players courting disaster

JumpinJoe said:
You are correct.
I started playing in the late 80s, maybe 88, I was in the poolroom everyday trying to learn and gambling from the first day. I played until 2002, quit until the Galveston classic in 2009. There was a TON more youngsters playing back then. That is something that has been lost and the main reason the game will not ever be as big as it was. Has nothing to do with pros, advertising, etc.

Has more to do with kids playing xbox, and on ipads etc. Kids nowadays do not go to arcades, play pool, hell they don't even really play outside with other kids near as much as they did back then.

Whatever happened to the days of your mom or dad telling you "go outside" and play? That don't happen now, kids stay in and play.
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There was a story a while back about a mom who was arrested in her front yard in a middle class cul-de-sac for leaving her kids playing in the front yard unsupervised for ten minutes. Her neighbor called the police, they came and cited her, she argued and they arrested her and had her kids taken away by child services. The kids were perfectly safe and playing in the person's own yard.

That's what's wrong with America. When I was young I went everywhere I wanted to and my mom said be home before dark. Now, with two kids in today's world I dread the day that I let them go outside and anywhere without someone looking after them. But It has to happen or I think they won't grow as people.

As for this Bonus Ball thing, just shut it down for a week and let the players play in Tunica. It's the damn IPT all over again on a much smaller scale.

Well all I can say about it is that IF the BB players don't want to go to Tunica then every shortstop from around the world should be signing up because now is a good time to snap off a title with less pro competition there.
 
Mark

Mark Griffin said:
Gary,

You need to understand what you are saying - you want all the players and 'heavy hitters' to scuttle their plans and just follow someone who says this is what will happen. (put all of our eggs in an unproven plan).

They need to prove themselves first - and they could have done that without jeopardizing the existing structure.

That is how a prudent business plan would work.

And if they want to gamble their future this way - more power to them.
But I would not want them gambling my future with theirs. I would 'wait and see'.

You need to be aware of what some of us have invested in the 'pro pool players'.
I do wish BB good success - but not at the existing evetns expense.

ALL of this could have been avoided by just a little humility and understanding, and using common ourtesy and common sense.

You see - all of this problem was totally unnecessary.

Mark Griffin
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Mark, It is not my intent to damage anything. I talked to Greg yesterday. He called me and I talked him for a while. I play in some of the Pro Events. I would play in more if it was realistic of making a profit. Mark, I find it hard to believe that my hope this opportunity for pool to go in a direction that may appeal to league players to tune in and maybe get excited about something new.
If I am single handedly hurting anything by saying give it a chance. I am for pool Mark and I think the BCA League And The event's put on by Greg are the best we have. It is not my fault that these people scheduled this on top of any other event. And I think it would have been in everyone's best interest if they would have worked together with the Major players in pool. I totally disagree they went about it this way. Having talked to Greg I do believe he was done wrong, And I do believe Greg.
1 Pocket, 9 Ball, And short rack banks are my best games, And I hope that Greg and yourself will continue to do what you do. Why isn't anyone questioning the players about loyalty. I just want to see Pro Pool thrive.
And if I offended anyone it is not my intention, I have supported Greg Sullivan and Mark Griffin events a long time and will continue to.
Sincerely.
Gary Lutman
 
Why would BB work with anyone they don't want to? its their 2mill their rolling the dice with. There is no big boys then need to work with in order to make it cause there is no pool.

The pro's might burn some bridges with other promoters but BB has his own chips and really doesn't care if you're all in with him or not.
 
Johnnyt said:
Yes, but he is just 1 of 12. We know that about 8 of them are going to vote the same. Johnnyt
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I've only read the Opening jay Post and then went back to these last few threads :deadhorse:. What's amazing, is how the wording or situations that I've just read on the last two pages....I've heard and seen Many times before.
 
jumpinjoe said:
you are correct.
I started playing in the late 80s, maybe 88, i was in the poolroom everyday trying to learn and gambling from the first day. I played until 2002, quit until the galveston classic in 2009. There was a ton more youngsters playing back then. That is something that has been lost and the main reason the game will not ever be as big as it was. Has nothing to do with pros, advertising, etc.

Has more to do with kids playing xbox, and on ipads etc. Kids nowadays do not go to arcades, play pool, hell they don't even really play outside with other kids near as much as they did back then.

Whatever happened to the days of your mom or dad telling you "go outside" and play? That don't happen now, kids stay in and play.
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nail on the head!
 
everybody right now who gambles on pool gets the chance to be the PGA tour cause right now there aint one. Its a 100/1 shot and you gotta put up a couple mill to buy the ticket.
 
Nostroke said:
Regardless of what JA said, Daz is one of the more cerebral guys on that board imho.
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I wasn't picking on Daz, I haven't said more than 12 words to him in my life so I don't know his qualifications. He seems like a solid guy from what I hear. I do wonder what your interaction with him has been to come with your conclusion above?

Anyways, my point that you missed is that if the president of the ABP can only point out that Daz is a good guy that can draw his ball when making this appointment to his board, there is the issue.

Here is the exact quote since I paraphrased the second half. ""Darren is a great guy and great player. He travels to every big tournament around the world so he will be great eyes and ears for the ABP Board. He's a smart, fair person and I know he will be an asset to the pro tour"
 
I hope bonus ball makes it..I'll play the game with my friends.
I'll not pay 199 for a set off balls tho..I can see paying 89 bucks
for them..I'm cheap..nothing has changed in the pool industry
here..some feel as their toes are being stepped on..it happends
all the time..an it'll not stop..to me pool is some what of a gimmick.
that was harsh..sorry.I think I'm just tried of hopping something
great well evolve for everyone..thats all.
 
in the greatest years of pool the players wore suit and tie why would it be different

Blue Hog ridr said:
Jason, good post and I agree with you until you said that pool doesn't need suits and ties.

Yes it does. People and specially young kids are very much fashion conscious these days than when I was growing up.

Maybe not suits and ties but casual and a dress shirt. Look how classy the snooker players are. They make it look like a gentlemens game.

I have watched many streams where the players are wearing shorts, shirts hanging out
and shuffling around the table in sandals. Real classy, although Its probably hot where they live, they most likely have air con in the pool room.

I recently received a DVD from CJ. Wow, he filmed the entire video with a suit on.

I imagine that he understands. Very classy.

I can fully understand your other part as well. I used to love the seedy part of pool and being a part of it. I mean by that, the
Old school rooms, the hard wood floors that creaked under foot and the smell of cigar smoke.

To this day, if I travel, I seek out the old school rooms instead of the family rec centres.

But, we are talking ushering in a new era and I believe with that, how the players are viewed and perceived are an important part of the show.

Hey, if you are in Vegas playing, who cares but if ESPN or another network get their ears perked up again, they don't want their viewing audience to have to watch elephants lumbering around the table in their waddling shoes.

Look at BB, at the very least, the players have on dress slacks and team jerseys. You'll probably see some of that rivalry
happening as well.
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Yes, it's essential - to improve the image of pool start with the visual appearance and bring class and style immediately back. This should be mandatory, it was on the PCA Tour that we started and as a result we did thousands of hours on ESPN...that's not the only reason naturally, but it was a deciding factor...Taking pride in the Game shows in many ways, and the first impression is something we want to be positive.

This "ball" has been severely dropped in the last 8 years, in the greatest years of pool the players wore suit and tie, why would it be different this time around? It obviously not different, the Game is at an all time low so there'a a plethora of things that could be done better, and dressing is certainly one of them.

The fact is it won't be different, the shorts and tee shirt look goes with pool like oil mixes with water.....it's not a pretty site, especially if someone is representing the game, it's visual sabotage. imo

'The Game is the Teacher' .com
 
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I was just looking at the website and it got me so excited. I was ready to purchase the season.

I'm going to learn so much about two-way shots and multi-rail banks.

I'm going to start a thread in the action room for this Thursday's match. You can pick your team even!
 
Kind of cool to hear they are planning to do a fantasy league also. I believe Nathan said next week or 2 before that is released.
 
Ok I put a thread up in the action room. Should be a good sweat. I posted that I thought this first match was free to watch. Can someone confirm this?
 
Luxury said:
Ok I put a thread up in the action room. Should be a good sweat. I posted that I thought this first match was free to watch. Can someone confirm this?
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Wasn't there mention of multiple weeks getting taped over a weekend? If so, i'd be a bit leary on posting action for a non-live match. I think week 1 is live though.
 
This is sweet. I got a bet down on the New York Pride. This means I get to root for Earl mic'd vs Archer and company this Thurs. Also get to watch Nevel banking like a boss.

With all the money at stake I can't imagine anyone having to worry about the D word in these matches.
 
A lot of good points are being made on this string. I would like to weigh in on BB and also some of the other points being discussed.

I took awhile to really absorb and start to enjoy watching bonus ball but will I subscribe to, and watch, the regular season(s). It is looking less likely all the time.

Will we end up watching a lot of matches where alternates (they sure have added a lot) are used because the ‘stars’ have other commitments? Hmmmmm.

People talk about the million plus investment as proof of how solid this plan is. I know that it is easy to raise an initial investment (it is easy to sell a dream if you have a good story and presentation) but after that it remains to be seen how patient the investors are and how deep their pockets are. Any additional investors, if needed, will have actual numbers to work with and their money will cost a lot.

I enjoyed some, maybe most, of CJ’s remarks and in particular his suggestion to buy TV time and then barter it. I ran a company that used this approach very successfully. The biggest problem with pool on television is how do you set up the matches and schedule to have the continuity to keep the audience interested and engaged. It has been pointed out that the Mosconi Cup does this the best and I agree. The regular events have not figured out how to replicate that when broadcasting other events like the US open and therefore have not been able to gain any traction. As a point of interest I thought the IPT broadcasts stunk and I say that after really wanting to like it.

While TAR and Accustats have come a long way in their presentations via live streaming there are still too many like Big Truck that do not do a good job.

Mark Griffin runs some of the best amateur events that there are. While the professional presence adds some cache it would not affect the tournament at all if they were not there. The only ones who would be negatively affected by their exclusion would be the pros. Mark and Jay (yeah, I read the old school remark and reject it entirely) not only have the experience but also have the passion for the sport and the empathy for what it takes to be a professional.

I would advise the leaders of the APB that forming an association is only the first step and now the real work begins. Invite input from these, and other, industry veterans. Talk to current sponsors, current tournament directors and the bonus ball people (by the way you have certainly weakened your position by becoming, in effect, employees of BB unless some of you formed this association as a way to control players for BB) then put together a sound business plan that includes all the opportunities that are available today organized to best benefit your membership and, in addition, put together a vision for the future along with a solid plan to implement it.
 
"Pool's about Acting, and Life's a $tage" CJ Wiley

thewhiffer said:
A lot of good points are being made on this string. I would like to weigh in on BB and also some of the other points being discussed.

I took awhile to really absorb and start to enjoy watching bonus ball but will I subscribe to, and watch, the regular season(s). It is looking less likely all the time.

Will we end up watching a lot of matches where alternates (they sure have added a lot) are used because the ‘stars’ have other commitments? Hmmmmm.

People talk about the million plus investment as proof of how solid this plan is. I know that it is easy to raise an initial investment (it is easy to sell a dream if you have a good story and presentation) but after that it remains to be seen how patient the investors are and how deep their pockets are. Any additional investors, if needed, will have actual numbers to work with and their money will cost a lot.

I enjoyed some, maybe most, of CJ’s remarks and in particular his suggestion to buy TV time and then barter it. I ran a company that used this approach very successfully. The biggest problem with pool on television is how do you set up the matches and schedule to have the continuity to keep the audience interested and engaged. It has been pointed out that the Mosconi Cup does this the best and I agree. The regular events have not figured out how to replicate that when broadcasting other events like the US open and therefore have not been able to gain any traction. As a point of interest I thought the IPT broadcasts stunk and I say that after really wanting to like it.

While TAR and Accustats have come a long way in their presentations via live streaming there are still too many like Big Truck that do not do a good job.

Mark Griffin runs some of the best amateur events that there are. While the professional presence adds some cache it would not affect the tournament at all if they were not there. The only ones who would be negatively affected by their exclusion would be the pros. Mark and Jay (yeah, I read the old school remark and reject it entirely) not only have the experience but also have the passion for the sport and the empathy for what it takes to be a professional.

I would advise the leaders of the APB that forming an association is only the first step and now the real work begins. Invite input from these, and other, industry veterans. Talk to current sponsors, current tournament directors and the bonus ball people (by the way you have certainly weakened your position by becoming, in effect, employees of BB unless some of you formed this association as a way to control players for BB) then put together a sound business plan that includes all the opportunities that are available today organized to best benefit your membership and, in addition, put together a vision for the future along with a solid plan to implement it.
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Yes, the "Barter Deals" are the secret system for getting pool on TV {at a reasonable cost}.

You are 100% correct that if the quality of production is not well done it's a lost cause.I did 9 of these type events at CJ's Billiard Palace, as well as being Director of Operations with the PCA involved with endorsing the ESPN World Open Events. We had huge success doing these events, however, it wasn't meant to continue for me at that time, there were political issues, and of course the Million Dollar Challenge "issue".

We have a match that was co produced with Prime (FOX) Sports in Dallas to show the work we were doing before taking my "leave of absence" from pool and getting into the Night-Club business. We were well before out time with the TV Broadcasts, however there was one big problem......Earl ran 11 racks in a row the first day for a Million Dollar annuity.:eek: ....of course that's a whole other story ;)

The key element will be the character development for a pool show to do well on TV now adays. Let's face it, no one is entertaining acting "like themselves," they must develop a character like Minnesota Fats did (yet different of course). He didn't act like that at home, he fit that personality and "fine tuned" it after the movie 'The Hustler' came out.

"Pool's about acting, and Life's a $tage" CJ Wiley 'The Game is the Teacher'.com

hustler.jpg
 
thewhiffer said:
A lot of good points are being made on this string. I would like to weigh in on BB and also some of the other points being discussed.

I took awhile to really absorb and start to enjoy watching bonus ball but will I subscribe to, and watch, the regular season(s). It is looking less likely all the time.

Will we end up watching a lot of matches where alternates (they sure have added a lot) are used because the ‘stars’ have other commitments? Hmmmmm.

People talk about the million plus investment as proof of how solid this plan is. I know that it is easy to raise an initial investment (it is easy to sell a dream if you have a good story and presentation) but after that it remains to be seen how patient the investors are and how deep their pockets are. Any additional investors, if needed, will have actual numbers to work with and their money will cost a lot.

I enjoyed some, maybe most, of CJ’s remarks and in particular his suggestion to buy TV time and then barter it. I ran a company that used this approach very successfully. The biggest problem with pool on television is how do you set up the matches and schedule to have the continuity to keep the audience interested and engaged. It has been pointed out that the Mosconi Cup does this the best and I agree. The regular events have not figured out how to replicate that when broadcasting other events like the US open and therefore have not been able to gain any traction. As a point of interest I thought the IPT broadcasts stunk and I say that after really wanting to like it.

While TAR and Accustats have come a long way in their presentations via live streaming there are still too many like Big Truck that do not do a good job.

Mark Griffin runs some of the best amateur events that there are. While the professional presence adds some cache it would not affect the tournament at all if they were not there. The only ones who would be negatively affected by their exclusion would be the pros. Mark and Jay (yeah, I read the old school remark and reject it entirely) not only have the experience but also have the passion for the sport and the empathy for what it takes to be a professional.

I would advise the leaders of the APB that forming an association is only the first step and now the real work begins. Invite input from these, and other, industry veterans. Talk to current sponsors, current tournament directors and the bonus ball people (by the way you have certainly weakened your position by becoming, in effect, employees of BB unless some of you formed this association as a way to control players for BB) then put together a sound business plan that includes all the opportunities that are available today organized to best benefit your membership and, in addition, put together a vision for the future along with a solid plan to implement it.
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What the heck? Ray "BigTruck" Hansen does a great job of streaming. As does Alvin Nelson and his crew.

What more do they need to do?
 
Mark Griffin said:
ALL of this could have been avoided by just a little humility and understanding, and using common ourtesy and common sense.

You see - all of this problem was totally unnecessary.

Mark Griffin
Click to expand...

...and about $13,000 in lost rent for "courtesy".

I understand that the schedule is not perfect for you Mark, and sure $13k is not a ton of money compared to a million, but it's still a gigantic sum of money. I really don't understand how you could ever expect someone to forfeit that simply out of courtesy.
 
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