Proposed TAR - TOI VS NO AIMING SYSTEM

[klockdoc]

I think a lot of people confuse "past your prime" with people who have totally quit the game, grow older, then return to the game and those who grow older but continue playing during that aging.

Use Mike Siegel (sp) as an example. Do you think he could come back and be the threat that he was?

I'm telling you......age affects the player. His/her sight...his/her reactions...his/her stamina/endurance ability. Many factors.

Couple things age probably enhances is patience and playing smarter.

JMO

 

[BeiberLvr]

Let me just go on record as saying I have nothing against the push out rules. Just that I don't believe it would make as big a difference as CJ thinks. If he can't beat someone like Orcullo playing one-foul, he isn't suddenly going to start winning if they switch to push out.

 

[MN_Josh]

I remember reading Darren Appleton picked up one pocket rather quickly and played in a big tourney. (like derby or us open) He finished fairly high in it too. Sorry my details are lacking there, maybe someone can fill that in. I think the idea that most of these guys are going to be at some great disadvantage for more than a few matches is silly. You might get some slick moves over on a few guys a few times, but that knowledge spreads quickly. Unless you never video any matches and make guys sign NDAs, the basic quarks of the game are going to get disseminated fairly fast. Any esoteric knowledge beyond that is going to be made up by the fact that they just shoot better than the old guys that "Know all the tricks".

 

[CJ Wiley]

"You have to make em wrestle you for the that first shot, CJ" - BUDDY BALL

This is an honest question. If "two shot roll out" is so much better why did everyone completely stop playing it? It's been 30 years and it's not in one video, one exhibition match, no one gambles at it. I understand it was changed from being the tv game, but if it was so superior why did it vanish from the face of the earth in terms of non televised matches. I mean straight pool is played more and it's as big as of anachronism as there is in pool.

The Two Shot Shoot Out rules were banished becuause prompoters wanted to expand the fields and speed up the tournaments.......it had nothing to do with what's right for the integrity of the game.

In "Ball in Hand" rules you will see a series of random shots, and run outs. In 'Two Shot Shoot Out' you will see a game of strategy and shot making. You can't win on a safety because it doesn't get you "ball in hand" on playing "chicken sh*t pool" (I apologize to all chickens for this reference )

PLAYING SAFE, KICKING and "DUCKING" (instead of going for challenging breakouts and tough shots) ARE THE WORST QUALITIES OF POOL, WHY PLAY RULES THAT BRING THEM OUT CONSISTENTLY?

In TWO SHOT you MUST come with a tough shot and out move your opponent to win and it becomes a BATTLE for the first shot.....the game becomes more like boxing because the two players must sparr and "wrestle" for each shot. This is where the beauty of the game is and it also brings back the SPOT SHOT and the TWO WAY SHOT which are VERY IMPORTANT aspect of rotation games like 9 Ball.

The Top players will still at the top playing these rules, but they will be forced to play the game in a way that brings out all the BEST attributes......instead of the worst ones.

"You have to make em wrestle you for that the first shot, CJ" - BUDDY BALL (The best 9 Ball player of them all).

 

[CJ Wiley]

Johnson City days with the Jasco Brothers NOT wanting the top players to have an adv

Let me just go on record as saying I have nothing against the push out rules. Just that I don't believe it would make as big a difference as CJ thinks. If he can't beat someone like Orcullo playing one-foul, he isn't suddenly going to start winning if they switch to push out.

You are missing the point entirely. This is NOT to give any "special" person an advantage, it's all about bringing out the best qualities of the game. As far as I'm concerned it will still bring the same players to the top......but the quality of pool will SKY ROCKET in bringing back the SPOT SHOT, the TWO WAY SHOT and keep players from playing heartless "lock up safeties" just to get ball in hand......NO OTHER SPORT or GAME has a ball in hand rule like is used in pool......it's ONLY used to speed up the game and give lesser players a better chance and keep any one player from dominating (like Buddy Hall and Earl Strickland did).

The history of One Foul (Reportedly) goes clear back to the Johnson City days with the Jasco Brothers NOT wanting the top players to have an advantage (this was before my time)......this is what I once heard from JERSEY RED, and I wish he would have specified the details. All I know is no "self respecting" money player would ever play "Ball in Hand" when I was in my teens and 20s......one foul was scoffed at because it took most of the skillful shots out and replaced them with "kicking, heartless defense (playing shape to lock {safety} someone up to get "ball in hand") and safeties".

'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[AtLarge]

The Two Shot Shoot Out rules were banished becuause prompoters wanted to expand the fields and speed up the tournaments.......it had nothing to do with what's right for the integrity of the game. ...

How about on your PCA Tour. Give us some background on the choice of rules for that tour.

 

[jay helfert]

I won't be at the US Open or Indy anytime soon. We're in lease negotiations right now to open up a multi million dollar billiard club in Ft. Worth. I've tried to play more pool, but without being involved in a pool room I don't have the incentive to play enough.

Two Shot Shoot Out is the game of the future and I'll play anyone in the world Two Shot Shoot Out in Ft. Worth Texas. This doesn't just mean Chris, it means anyone that comes here will get action for $100 a game and when my Billiard Club opens I'll bet higher.....much higher. I just need 3 days notice to get a few hours of practice in.

We will be streaming matches and producing TV Events this coming year and hopefully it will lead to something worth while. "One Foul Ball in Hand" rules will be a "thing of the past" in 10 years is my prediction. 'The Game is the Teacher'

This is more like the CJ I know! The man is a thoroughbred regardless of what "system" he uses. With the proper motivation (i.e. REAL money!) I believe he would play good again. Tournaments were never his best game (although he won a few). CJ was always a jam up money player. If he ever makes a game with anyone for serious money I'll be betting on him.

 

[Houstoer]

This is more like the CJ I know! The man is a thoroughbred regardless of what "system" he uses. With the proper motivation (i.e. REAL money!) I believe he would play good again. Tournaments were never his best game (although he won a few). CJ was always a jam up money player. If he ever makes a game with anyone for serious money I'll be betting on him.

Jay - you and me both brother !

 

[(((Satori)))]

You are missing the point entirely. This is NOT to give any "special" person an advantage, it's all about bringing out the best qualities of the game. As far as I'm concerned it will still bring the same players to the top......but the quality of pool will SKY ROCKET in bringing back the SPOT SHOT, the TWO WAY SHOT and keep players from playing heartless "lock up safeties" just to get ball in hand......NO OTHER SPORT or GAME has a ball in hand rule like is used in pool......it's ONLY used to speed up the game and give lesser players a better chance and keep any one player from dominating (like Buddy Hall and Earl Strickland did).

The history of One Foul (Reportedly) goes clear back to the Johnson City days with the Jasco Brothers NOT wanting the top players to have an advantage (this was before my time)......this is what I once heard from JERSEY RED, and I wish he would have specified the details. All I know is no "self respecting" money player would ever play "Ball in Hand" when I was in my teens and 20s......one foul was scoffed at because it took most of the skillful shots out and replaced them with "kicking, heartless defense (playing shape to lock {safety} someone up to get "ball in hand") and safeties".

'The Game is the Teacher'

What BieberLvr is trying to say is he wants everyone to know he thinks you have no chance playing Chris or anyone else who is competative today. Ill recap in not so many words.

OP- "I want to see Bartum and CJ play."

BL- "CJ is too old and Bartrum would rob him."

CB- "Ill play him at the open"

CJ- " Im not going to be at the open but anyone has action playing two shot foul if you come to me."

BL- "CJ cant win no matter what the rules are."



He doesnt care about a discussion comparing the rules he just wants to be clear that he thinks you can't win anymore, as if his opinion based on a C/D players knowledge matters to anyone. Or I should say his opinion is irrelevant when he just wants to discredit a previous world champion and one of thr best money players to have ever played.

BeibersLvr, stick to learning from CJ not giving him your opinion as to how he should match up.

 

[jay helfert]

I just did a dissertation on how Texas Express came to be the accepted tournament rules for 9-Ball on another thread, so I won't get into all that again. Suffice to say that it was the Caesars Tahoe events of the early 80's that really spelled the end of "push out" pool in major tournaments. In the ensuing years "one foul BIH" became the accepted way to play 9-Ball, even in money games. Was I against this change, you bet! But I didn't have the final vote, Richie Florence did. And by the way, he was a great player, using the old rules. He was also a smart businessman and wanted to attract the largest television audience possible. It was all working until the players boycotted against him at Caesars Palace in 1984 (or '85).

Interestingly enough, the best players (Earl, Sigel, Buddy, Nick, Kim) continued to win major tournaments with the "new" rules. The cream will always rise to the top, no matter the rules or the format of the event. I'm a firm believer that the players with the most HEART win the big matches, and it ain't about the rules. Both players must adapt to whatever rules are being used. It's always been the guy who can come with the big shot under pressure who wins the big matches. Lesser players will dog it a little. I've been seeing this same scenario unfold for a million years. That's my opinion for what it's worth.

No question, Push-Out is a more difficult game to play and so is One Pocket, which is ten times as tough as Push-Out 9-Ball. But will all the major tournaments ever be One Pocket, no way. And there is a good reason why. The audience won't allow that to happen. They want to see fast and loose One Foul 9-Ball or Ten Ball. IMO Ten Ball should use exactly the same rules as 9-Ball, Texas Express. Why not, it's just as hard (or harder) to make the ten ball on the break, and there is no more luck at the highest level either. Plus the two way shot is a great part of pro pool, so why get rid of it? Again no one asked me for my vote....except in the Bigfoot Ten Ball Challenge, where I get to do it my way.

 

[AtLarge]

... Plus the two way shot is a great part of pro pool, so why get rid of it? Again no one asked me for my vote....except in the Bigfoot Ten Ball Challenge, where I get to do it my way.

WPA 10-Ball rules do not get rid of the standard type of two-way shot where you play to leave the CB safe if you fail to pocket the OB.

The rules do, however, eliminate the type of two-way shot where you play to pocket one (or both) of two different OB's; i.e., you must call a ball and pocket. I don't think it's asking too much of pros to choose which ball they are playing.

 

[StraightPoolIU]

WPA 10-Ball rules do not get rid of the standard type of two-way shot where you play to leave the CB safe if you fail to pocket the OB.

The rules do, however, eliminate the type of two-way shot where you play to pocket one (or both) of two different OB's; i.e., you must call a ball and pocket. I don't think it's asking too much of pros to choose which ball they are playing.

Agreed. I like the current 10 ball rules. I like that they are set apart from 9 ball that way.

 

[backplaying]

Thanks for the props on my game

Ill be at the us open ready to gamble with anyone who will make a fair game

I would think you and Chip would be a good match up.

 

[JB Cases]

I think that Texas Express rules do allow a lot more luck into the game. They did force people to learn to kick and jump better. And they probably did speed up events. I remember Robin, John or maybe Randy from TE explaining on here that it definitely made it possible for them to run their events in a weekend.

But honestly 9 ball roll out is not the same game. When I grew up it was 2 foul and you absolutely HAD to know how to make a spot shot from anywhere and get shape. You had to know how to bank because you couldn't simply duck. You had to "wrestle for the first shot" as Buddy put it. You couldn't simply hide the cue ball because the incoming player would make you shoot again or if you played a safe then they would roll out to a tough shot or a bank. It was a really different game.

I can remember back then we used to ask our opponents if we were playing 2 foul or Texas Express when gambling. And at some point it was not even a question anymore it was just Texas Express.

Jumping, people used to push to jump shots. This really favored guys like Strickland who could full cue jump - there weren't any jump cues back then. People didn't fully know that the cue made a difference in how well a person could jump. I mean they knew to some degree that some cues were easier than others but there wasn't anyone really pushing it. We all just figured you had to work a little harder if you had a cue that wasn't real good for jumping. But you were at a real big disadvantage playing a guy who could full-ball jump because he would push to jump shots and you had to let him take the shot or try to kick at it.

Good players would challenge you with long thin shots, with bank shots and you had to take them because you knew they would make them. They could torture lesser players with the amount of two-way shots they knew since they knew the weaker player couldn't simply duck easily.

I really miss that way to play. Current nine ball is truly a lucky game. Sure at the higher levels it's less lucky but if you really observe the matches then lucky rolls play pivotal roles in just about every match.

There was far more skill needed in two foul nine ball as far as shot making and banking goes IMO. In one foul there is a lot of skill needed as well, especially in kicking and jumping. But shot making doesn't have to be as strong because of the opportunities to play relatively easy safeties from most positions. Again all in my opinion.

 

[BeiberLvr]

What BieberLvr is trying to say is he wants everyone to know he thinks you have no chance playing Chris or anyone else who is competative today. Ill recap in not so many words.

OP- "I want to see Bartum and CJ play."

BL- "CJ is too old and Bartrum would rob him."

CB- "Ill play him at the open"

CJ- " Im not going to be at the open but anyone has action playing two shot foul if you come to me."

BL- "CJ cant win no matter what the rules are."



He doesnt care about a discussion comparing the rules he just wants to be clear that he thinks you can't win anymore, as if his opinion based on a C/D players knowledge matters to anyone. Or I should say his opinion is irrelevant when he just wants to discredit a previous world champion and one of thr best money players to have ever played.

BeibersLvr, stick to learning from CJ not giving him your opinion as to how he should match up.

Chris called him out. He even offered him a spot. I'm not saying CJ could never beat Chris, but there's probably a reason (other than the ones he gave) that he's not jumping at that game.

As you get older, you lose things, and it surely doesn't help if you haven't matched up as often as you used too. Earl still plays pretty sporty, but Earl never took such an extended break, and he still isn't as good as he was 10-20 years ago.

Also, you should probably learn what the word "discredit" actually means. Not once did I ever try to take anything away from what CJ has accomplished. I just don't continue to live in the past.

 

[lfigueroa]

I agree that the game is different now, but the fundamentals remain the same. There are a lot of things that experience can teach a player which no book will teach him/her even if it claims to. A book can tell you that 0 degree is a cold temperature, but you'll never know how it feels if you have never experienced it.
Now a days there are a lot of resources available to learn stuff about pool, but in my personal experience just being there taking the heat, watching other players, doing it the 'hard' way makes a huge difference.
As a matter of fact, I think that the level / skill set of players today have gone lower, cuz things come easy to them. If they want to learn how to make shot, there is book about it. They don't have to go to their local pool room and gamble / play with some one who knows is a good bank shot player to learn it. They can learn by reading the book or watching dvd and by playing in their basement. People are getting lazy, they are trying to acquire skills that comes after 100 hours of play time by doing it just for 20 hours and a $40 book. IMO that's just "half learning". I seriously doubt that I will see another Eddie Taylor or Bugs Rucker in my lifetime, cuz that's just not going to happen. May be there is a guy who could be like them, but he is stuck selling cars and never picked up a pool cue cuz pool is not as big as it used to be. Can you name a book that will teach me how to play shape like the great buddy hall ? or how to be as flamboyant as Keith ?? or to be an artist like Efren ? The point is just cuz we have all these "resources" now a days doesn't necessarily mean that a general level of play has increased.

People have different style of play, every one learns differently. After a 8 ball break some people see clusters and others see patterns. Good bank pool players see lines on the table that are never there. So, I don't agree with you saying and I quote "when you are staring down a long shot, or a difficult cut, or tough position play on a Diamond Pro-Am, you are not cutting the pocket into segments...".

I don't understand when you say that Cj's game was well suited for his era ?? that don't make sense to me. Pool fundamentals are still the same, you still got to make ball in the pocket regardless of how you aim it, you still gotta know angles, spins, lines, and various other things. The guy is just teaching what he believe made him a better player, and there is nothing wrong with it.
I don't know if CJ is going to win or loose cuz that's something only he can answer.

The histories of sports are littered with champions of one era who either tried to keep up or return to competition and failed. True, there are some champions that can lift their game, but predominantly the efforts of most fall short.

Yes, fundamentals are fundamentals, but it goes far beyond that. Just because a player's fundamentals make them a monster on 5" pockets against their US contemporaries does not mean they will be a monster on 4.5" pockets against an international field of super stars.

*Everyone* plays better now. *All* the equipment is more challenging now. And the fields now are *ridiculously* tougher with the Asians and Europeans present and accounted for as well as a home town team that is far superior than those of the 80's and 90's.

IMO, CJ's game was well suited for the level of play and the equipment of his era. But I don't believe he has the tools to be competitive in today's environment of tougher equipment and tougher fields. You have to bring more precision and more consistency and a generally higher level of play nowadays. I don't think he's got any of that. Just my opinion. Ergo, I don't think he can win regardless of the rules.

Lou Figueroa

 

[duckie]

So, it appears that TOI doesn't stand a chance against no aiming system.....

 

[CJ Wiley]

the issue of your opponent missing and hooking you several times to win a match.

How about on your PCA Tour. Give us some background on the choice of rules for that tour.

We played "Call Shot" so there was no slopped shots allowed.

You could make your opponent shoot again if they missed a called shot.

Once a game you were allowed a "Two Way Shot" where you could both call a ball {in a pocket} and a safe simultaneously.

Once a game you were also allowed a two way offensive shot where you could call two balls and if you made one you continue to shoot.....example: you could call the six in the corner and also carom the 7 or 9 in the side/corner.

Referees racked the balls in the quarter finals through finals.

Brunswick Centennial balls with no jump cues allowed.

I like these rules for tournaments much better than what's being used now. The Two Shot Shoot Out is still better, but this (rule) at least takes out the issue of your opponent missing and hooking you several times to win a match.

Professionals should also call their pocket and not be allowed to touch the balls after racking no matter what other rules are utilized. imo

 

[CJ Wiley]

Using TOI is like ...............

So, it appears that TOI doesn't stand a chance against no aiming system.....

Using TOI is like shooting duckies in a barrel,

 

[CJ Wiley]

The rules won't give me any more advantage than Dennis O. , the reason I like ,,,,,,

I just did a dissertation on how Texas Express came to be the accepted tournament rules for 9-Ball on another thread, so I won't get into all that again. Suffice to say that it was the Caesars Tahoe events of the early 80's that really spelled the end of "push out" pool in major tournaments. In the ensuing years "one foul BIH" became the accepted way to play 9-Ball, even in money games. Was I against this change, you bet! But I didn't have the final vote, Richie Florence did. And by the way, he was a great player, using the old rules. He was also a smart businessman and wanted to attract the largest television audience possible. It was all working until the players boycotted against him at Caesars Palace in 1984 (or '85).

Interestingly enough, the best players (Earl, Sigel, Buddy, Nick, Kim) continued to win major tournaments with the "new" rules. The cream will always rise to the top, no matter the rules or the format of the event. I'm a firm believer that the players with the most HEART win the big matches, and it ain't about the rules. Both players must adapt to whatever rules are being used. It's always been the guy who can come with the big shot under pressure who wins the big matches. Lesser players will dog it a little. I've been seeing this same scenario unfold for a million years. That's my opinion for what it's worth.

No question, Push-Out is a more difficult game to play and so is One Pocket, which is ten times as tough as Push-Out 9-Ball. But will all the major tournaments ever be One Pocket, no way. And there is a good reason why. The audience won't allow that to happen. They want to see fast and loose One Foul 9-Ball or Ten Ball. IMO Ten Ball should use exactly the same rules as 9-Ball, Texas Express. Why not, it's just as hard (or harder) to make the ten ball on the break, and there is no more luck at the highest level either. Plus the two way shot is a great part of pro pool, so why get rid of it? Again no one asked me for my vote....except in the Bigfoot Ten Ball Challenge, where I get to do it my way.

That's a nice summary.although I can't agree that the audiences want to see "One Foul" because there was only 20 people in the audience {at any given time} at TUNICA and many other Pro events these days. I must say that "audiences" are officially not a factor these days.....my last tournament in Dallas had over 800 people come through the door on ONE DAY....now it's amazing to see that many the entire tournament.

Also, I'd debate that one pocket IS NOT a tougher, more strategic game than SHOOT OUT 9 Ball, I think in SHOOT OUT it's even more strategic and much tougher to guard 6 pockets rather then just one.

Battling for the first shot playing SHOOT OUT is so much more interesting to watch than one pocket because there's one ball and one pocket that's being showcased....in one pocket it's hard to follow what the strategy really is because it may be used to get a shot at a different ball three innings later.

I believe "the audiences" want to see the best in a game and it's our job to bring that out and "One Foul" is not what brings out the best qualities in pool.......NOT BY A LONG SHOT.

Everyone is allowed their own opinion, but they can't generate their own facts about Two Shot Shoot Out......it's most definitely the most difficult game and vastly superior when it comes to strategy, two way shots...... anyone remember "THE SPOT SHOT"....."ball in hand" rules took that shot out of play too and it used to be VERY IMPORTANT!

I've said this before, Two Shot Shoot Out won't change who the best players are, it will give them more of an advantage. The rules won't give me any more advantage,,,.., the reason I like them is because IT MAKES THE GAME 10 TIMES BETTER imo. and playing "ball in hand rules" is boring to me and I've played a LOT of it over the years and have successfully completed many major tournaments against the likes of Sigel, Strickland, Ortmann, Archer, Hatch, Reyes, Bustemante, etc. We ALL played very close in tournament play and I was never more than a game underdog to any player at any time.