Pros today vs the pros yesterday

[pt109]

I showed this video to Willy Gérimont a few weeks ago...he came to our club to give a two day seminar. He was not too impressed.

He didn't mention the Philippines, but he said the carom scene in Vietnam is insane.

I can understand the carom talent of Vietnam…after all, it was known as French IndoChina before WWII.
Philippines had the Americans influence billiard games greatly in that same period.
…..but I don’t understand South Korea’s greatness at caroms…where’d that come from?

 

[pvc lou]

I can understand the carom talent of Vietnam…after all, it was known as French IndoChina before WWII.
Philippines had the Americans influence billiard games greatly in that same period.
…..but I don’t understand South Korea’s greatness at caroms…where’d that come from?

I really have no idea why caroms is so hot in South Korea, PT. Maybe @Texas Carom Club can tell us.

 

[ShootingArts]

I don’t think McCready’s mechanics were bad….I judge a player by watching the CUE between his bridge hand and the cue ball….Keith rang all the bells.

Allen Hopkins has that nasty looking short stroke but as we all know, he did all he needed to with it! Keith's sidearm might sucker a few people in but it doesn't take long for them to learn better.

I would put another side to this, greatness may not always be equal to outright skill at whatever the player is doing.

Pure will to win is a huge factor that can't be rated. Having competed at many things, I have met a double handful of these people who seem to have all the skills to win but never do. They are consistent top five placers locally, even top ten in some big events, but they never get to first place for some reason. I think they just don't see themselves there.

The straightest shooting and one of the smartest pool players I know of was a strong regional player, won at that level, but never won the major events. He certainly had all of the physical skills, I have to think he was lacking something mental or emotional to be one of the best in the world.

Reminds me, I used to watch an old man that age and stamina was forcing to quit short tracking. Before a race he shook like a bird dog crapping peach pits and could burn through a pack of cigarettes in ten minutes. Then he would go out and win the race as often as not. Before a race he was all nerves but it all went away when the green flag dropped!

Hu

 

[Texas Carom Club]

I really have no idea why caroms is so hot in South Korea, PT. Maybe @Texas Carom Club can tell us.

no clue, at first i thought the french, but im thinking vietnam,

they have a lot of money, and they have the market locked down it would appear on everything about the game, theyre able to sell it to the people all over tv. ive seen many unbelievable rooms there with 20 plus brand new gabriels models every table with stream and touch screen scoring.
who can really say, how do they do it? no gd clue here

conspiracy theory time, perhaps they use carom as a means to wash illegal funds to some extent?
i have a hard time believing rooms in mexico city with 20 plus french chevillotts got there because some rich dude just loved the game so much. same in colombia room full of brand new korean tables with touch screens and live streams for all tables.

 

[pt109]

Pure will to win is a huge factor that can't be rated. Having competed at many things, I have met a double handful of these people who seem to have all the skills to win but never do. They are consistent top five placers locally, even top ten in some big events, but they never get to first place for some reason. I think they just don't see themselves there.

The straightest shooting and one of the smartest pool players I know of was a strong regional player, won at that level, but never won the major events. He certainly had all of the physical skills, I have to think he was lacking something mental or emotional to be one of the best in the world.

Hu

Some people, Hu, don’t understand that pool and snooker are war games, like boxing and chess.
……the right shot is the winning shot.
Whenever I heard a guy say he just plays the table, I knew he’d end in up in my pocket….somehow.

 

[ShootingArts]

Some people, Hu, don’t understand that pool and snooker are war games, like boxing and chess.
……the right shot is the winning shot.
Whenever I heard a guy say he just plays the table, I knew he’d in up in my pocket….somehow.

Generally when another gambler said they just played the table I lied right back!(grin)

There was a word for people that didn't consider the other player's skills and weaknesses and it wasn't "gambler" no matter how much they bet.

Hu

 

[skogstokig]

I can understand the carom talent of Vietnam…after all, it was known as French IndoChina before WWII.
Philippines had the Americans influence billiard games greatly in that same period.
…..but I don’t understand South Korea’s greatness at caroms…where’d that come from?

sang lee probably. only takes one sensation to spark interest in a nation. i bet lots of belgians are gonna pick up snooker, for example

 

[pt109]

no clue, at first i thought the french, but im thinking vietnam,

they have a lot of money, and they have the market locked down it would appear on everything about the game, theyre able to sell it to the people all over tv. ive seen many unbelievable rooms there with 20 plus brand new gabriels models every table with stream and touch screen scoring.
who can really say, how do they do it? no gd clue here

conspiracy theory time, perhaps they use carom as a means to wash illegal funds to some extent?
i have a hard time believing rooms in mexico city with 20 plus french chevillotts got there because some rich dude just loved the game so much. same in colombia room full of brand new korean tables with touch screens and live streams for all tables.

Latin America has produced carom players for a long time.

 

[Texas Carom Club]

Latin America has produced carom players for a long time.

Yes but 10 plus world class tables, shipped and imported and setup in the middle of mexico
That’s ALOOOOOOFTTTT of support and a massive undertaking and expense
Yuge

 

[pt109]

Yes but 10 plus world class tables, shipped and imported and setup in the middle of mexico
That’s ALOOOOOOFTTTT of support and a massive undertaking and expense
Yuge

There are about twelve times more millionaires in Mexico City than there are in DC….it ain’t Juarez.

 

[maha]

mechanics are overrated by the weaker players as they cant make their cue go straight. and think fooling around with their bodies and such makes the difference. it doesnt at all. but does help those that cant shoot straight somewhat.

its the same with golf. its all about being able to repeat your swing/stroke.

 

[JoeyInCali]

mechanics are overrated by the weaker players as they cant make their cue go straight. and think fooling around with their bodies and such makes the difference. it doesnt at all. but does help those that cant shoot straight somewhat.

its the same with golf. its all about being able to repeat your swing/stroke.

Like the female pros who were ran over by Allison Fisher when she came over?
Decades later, just about every female pro has the huge pause .

 

[Bob Jewett]

sang lee probably. only takes one sensation to spark interest in a nation. i bet lots of belgians are gonna pick up snooker, for example

When Sang Lee was coming up Koreans were already carom fanatics. I've been told that until they got married most Korean men spent time playing 4-ball for money. (And that Colombia was the same except it's 3-ball there.)

The latest news from Korea is that 3-cushion is popular among teenage girls. Amazing if true.

In Seoul you can find multiple billiard rooms per block.

 

[Texas Carom Club]

There are about twelve times more millionaires in Mexico City than there are in DC….it ain’t Juarez.

Exactly, the drug lords don’t stay on the frontera

 

[jay helfert]

I think we need to be careful here. Yes, there are more straight shooters in the game than ever before. Not even guys like Strickland and Lassiter shot straighter than Gorst, Filler, Kaci and Shaw.

On the other hand, although the position paths are a little better today on average than those of the last generation, have we ever seen a better pattern player than Rempe, Hall or Souquet? I'd say no.

I think the old timers played better short position than today's pros by a little (probably because straight pool demanded it), but the pros of today play better long and complex position shots than those of yesterday by a mile. Interestingly enough, the best short position player of these times might well be John Schmidt, whose focus usually lays in the game of straight pool.

The old timers were better defensive payers than those of today, as well. Pool's three best defensive cueists of all time are surely Reyes, Pagulayan and Varner and yet there's no heir apparent to their level of defensive wizardry.

Today's players are better than any we've ever seen, but they are not better in every single area of the game. Give the old-timers their due.

Thank you for this Stu. I concur with much of what you and others have said on here. Different eras and different equipment! That said I never saw a straighter shooter than Louie Roberts, both then and now. No one today could consistently make the kind of shots that were routine for him. They wouldn't have wanted to engage in a shot making contest with him. Other old time great shotmakers included Greg Stevens and Richie Florence. Did they control the cue ball as well as today's best? No. Imo Jayson Shaw is the closest I've seen for pure shotmaking.

As you well know mastery of the game of pool rests as much in the cranium as in the muscle memory. You must have a strong mind to be a winner! No one today (closest being prime Orcollo) had the sheer will to defeat their opponent more than Cornbread Red. Let's just say he was intimdating. And then there was Harold Worst. He was our Tiger Woods, simply a notch above. He had qualities that set him apart from all before or since. What an example he could have set for today's players to follow and hopefully emulate. Niels Feigen is cut from a similar mold, just not at the same level as Worst. Calling him a Man's man seems almost trite.

Okay, carry on

 

[ShootingArts]

Mosconi and Crane both hold the record of 309 on a 10' table. It seems to me the pockets on those old tables were pretty tight, but I don't recall exactly where I read that. Does anybody here know?

Can't say I know but reading some old books lately I noticed mention of ten foot tables with four and four and a half inch pockets. While generous pockets were more common I believe, tight pockets were not unknown.

Speaking to everyone and talking about cutting balls on those old tables, I never saw anyone better in life or on video than the hippie. He was a one trick pony, only a fair shot, couldn't bank at all, but he could cut balls razor thin on heavy cloth further than anyone I have ever seen. His name might have been Bill, not sure. He and I ran with the same crowd but he was six or eight years older than me. He was maybe six-six or more and didn't weigh a hundred pounds. Burned out head by the time he was twenty-five.

I knew if I could cut balls with him I would be better than anyone else I ever played with cutting so three or four nights a week I would tackle him without banking. Got to where we would shut down play on all the other tables with everybody watching us. The owners didn't care, everyone was still drinking, more than ever! This went on for months and I did get very close to him cutting balls. If I really needed to win I would bank some balls but most of the time I cut everything just like he did. Then one day he was gone. Left a wife and two small children, went back to New York or wherever. Never heard of him again.

Hu

 

[jay helfert]

Can't say I know but reading some old books lately I noticed mention of ten foot tables with four and four and a half inch pockets. While generous pockets were more common I believe, tight pockets were not unknown.

Speaking to everyone and talking about cutting balls on those old tables, I never saw anyone better in life or on video than the hippie. He was a one trick pony, only a fair shot, couldn't bank at all, but he could cut balls razor thin on heavy cloth further than anyone I have ever seen. His name might have been Bill, not sure. He and I ran with the same crowd but he was six or eight years older than me. He was maybe six-six or more and didn't weigh a hundred pounds. Burned out head by the time he was twenty-five.

I knew if I could cut balls with him I would be better than anyone else I ever played with cutting so three or four nights a week I would tackle him without banking. Got to where we would shut down play on all the other tables with everybody watching us. The owners didn't care, everyone was still drinking, more than ever! This went on for months and I did get very close to him cutting balls. If I really needed to win I would bank some balls but most of the time I cut everything just like he did. Then one day he was gone. Left a wife and two small children, went back to New York or wherever. Never heard of him again.

Hu

He came back as Toby Sweet, lol. Just kidding, but Toby could see the edge of the ball better than just about anyone else from that era. He could cut them razor thin. Lee Van is the closest to him around today.

 

[jasonlaus]

I was watching FSR the other day and caught myself realizing that his position play actually sucked. Wrong side of the ball all the time, piss poor speed control, way to far away from the OB. Their shot making is so good they overcome a lot of other deficiencies. The game to me is a lot easier today because of faster, better equipment. I played at a pro level (lower tier) in the late 90's. I've I could dedicate that time again I, comparably, would be even better because of equipment. It's easier to move the rock and break out balls. Conversely if you took today's players and deposited them in the 70's-90's they would play good but struggle and not be as good as they are today. If you took Hall, Miz, Varner and they played today they would still be killers. Big part of that is they have the needed mental makeup.

 

[jasonlaus]

Are you dreaming? Busty has some of the most flawed mechanics, and he was still winning MOT at DCC with all the new champions before he lost his visa.

If you were standing within 4 feet of Siegel you might get hit with a cue - fundamentals of an APA 3

 

[jasonlaus]

Maybe. The point is there is not a single shot Shane knows (and can execute) better than Archer. Or Archer better than Strickland. Or Strickland better than Hall. Or Filler better than Souquet. Or Aranas better than Efren.

Except the ones that were directly affected by equipment changes, like jump cues, Sardo/magic racks, etc. The play after the break and not counting jump shots is exactly the same for 50 years now.

IMO

Every one of us can make those shots it's just a matter of how often we make them and today's players make them way more often