Putting someone in a tournament ???

Split the cash before or after taking out tourn. fee's ?

  • Backer gets entry back then split !

    Votes: 84 77.8%

  • Split the winnings 50/50 !

    Votes: 24 22.2%
  • Total voters
    108
vapoolplayer said:
You said staking a player isn't profitable.........then what is the ****ing point of doing it?
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Tournaments you will most likely lose a lot of money.. Heads up gambling thats a difference story. You could make some serious timber in a heads up match if your player can win.

That is the point I was trying to make...
 
RunoutJJ; So lets say the entry fee is $100 and the player wins $300. You get the $100+$150 spilt and the player gets $50 messly bucks for charging through a tough bracket to win you money?? [/QUOTE said:
No, bad math there..

$300 winner take minus the $100 entry = $200

$200/2 = $100 for the backer and the player each.. That's a 50/50 split after entry/expenses..
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RunoutJJ said:
Anybody that tried to offer my a deal (if that's what you call it) like that I would tell them to shove off and put myself in!! Pift!! Never heard of such a thing. So you mean to tell me that you deserve the entry (or said bet) back after you earn your winnings?? Bunch of Horseshite!!

So lets say the entry fee is $100 and the player wins $300. You get the $100+$150 spilt and the player gets $50 messly bucks for charging through a tough bracket to win you money?? Yeah aint happening... I think that since you're only putting up the cash and the other guy does the work why should you be entitled to get the lions share?? You should also know that backing players is not a profitable aspect or situation. Unless you honestly feel like your player snaps the whole event off then don't bother... Its a waste of time and money.

Say you back a player in a gambling session. What would your spilt be then?? Would you take 70-30 like Bert or would it be spilt 50/50. I think we all know the answer to that!! So whats the difference about entry fees and backing a player in a heads up session?? Not much other then the player has to play longer and harder to make any kind of money in a tournament situation.

These economics are pretty basic and like I said before... I think most that voted the first option don't gamble or play in tournaments!! HELL... If this really is the standard im gonna be a bonafide stakehourse and rob my players!! Hell YEAH!!! Sounds like being a creep is profitable so Im gonna go for it.

Ive heard some corkers but this one takes the cupie doll :speechless:
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I believe they are saying the backer gets his $100 back and then they split the difference. $100 a piece.
 
vapoolplayer said:
It makes absolutly no sense to stake anyone at anything and they get to basically "free roll" on your money each night. I've personally seen this happen.....player X plays three different nights on stake horse Y's money. They lose 1k on first night, 3k on second night, then win 3k on third night. Now player X expects 1500........that's complete bullshit. Even if the stake horse pays the player 0$, he is still stuck 1k.....if he pays 1500, he's now stuck 2500 and the player is up 1500 while taking NO risk.
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To me the type in bold sounds to me like the player somehow owes something back to you even though you put up the stake and lost. Is it his fault that somebody else beat him on two occassion and final won one?? NO its your fault for taken the bet!! Is it his fault for you betting on him after a substantial loss?? NO it would be your fault. FINALLY he wins for you and you split the winnings as you should!!

Gambling is gambling and if you lose then you lose!! Nobody owes you anything!! You're taken a risk to make MONEY!!! Talent needs to be paid and thats final!! Even if you are down on two previous sessions.

You mad bro??? Then don't gamble or keep gambling till you turn a profit!! If your down 12 large and win 10 large you bet the 10 large!!!! Nobody pays you for yardage!! <------- Sorry couldn't resist :lol:
 
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There's an easy way to do the math as to what's fair for the backer.
It really depends on the tournament, there is no one-size-fits-all split.

- Estimate the odds (honestly and accurately) of how likely your horse is to win it all.
- Multiply that by the top prize. Forget the money for 2nd place etc for now.
- If the result is higher than the entry fee, it's a good bet for the backer.

Example: 20 guys enter a tournament. Two are evenly-matched pros and the rest are nobodies.
You are totally confident one of the pros will win, but not sure which one.

Entry fee is $100 and first prize is $1000.
You back one of the pros.

Your odds of winning are 50/50, which means 0.5 * $1000.
That's 500 bucks 'expected earnings'... IF your odds are accurate.
Split up the middle, you'd get $250.
Since that's higher than the entry fee, it's a good bet in the long run.

But, let's do a more realistic scenario...
Same tournament, but it's all pros. One of them is a tier above the others.
You do the mental math and feel he's about 20% to win.
Due to short races and funny rolls and such, you can't realistically put him higher than that.

Now your expected earnings are .2 * $1000, which is just $200.
Split up the middle, you get $100, the same as the entry fee.
So in the long haul you're just breaking even.

Since the 2nd scenario is much more likely, I can see why people might feel
a straight 50/50 split is senseless.
If I were backing, rather than worry about the entry fee,
I'd do the math and then offer, say, a 60/40 split or whatever.
 
If I stake a player to play a set for $100 per man, we put $200 on the light. We win the set, I take down the $200, put $100 in my pocket and we split the other $100 winnings. Why would putting up $100 stake for a tournament be any different?
 
Broke pool players who feel they are entitled to as much profit as possible from being put into the box by someone, because they are soooo damn talented, need to be chucked into a dumpster, and have their cues cracked over their head.
 
As a backer you have to feed, board and transport your mount. You have paid their entry fees before you see dollar one. If they don't turn a profit for you, get rid of them and get a new one.
 
The horse makes the rules. Like superstar said, backers are a dime a dozen. From most of what I've seen, backers are generally weak players looking for excitement from what they can't do themselves. Because of this, the horse makes all the rules, and can throw a dime to find another backer if his current one isn't behaving to his satisfaction.

<==== former backer, learned my lesson. lol.
 
vapoolplayer said:
And this attitude is one of the reasons there aren't as many people willing to stake players these days.

Unless you are consistently backing a stone cold world beater, the backer will lose money in the long run if he doesn't recoup expenses before splitting profits.

I will not back pool players.....period. They are typically poor gamblers, have terrible logic, are are in general a pain in the ass to deal with. Obviously there are exceptions, but as a general rule, I don't deal with staking pool.

Poker on the other hand, if I know someone is a good player and has just run across a bit of bad variance, I will stake them. However, they do not make profit until I make a profit.

If I put them in a game for 500 tonight and they lose, then put them in a game for 500 tomorrow and they leave the game with 1000 total.....guess what.....there is NO profit from the past two days to split up. I would be a total idiot to take 1000 risk over two days, only to take a 250 loss and the stake player takes a 250 win.

I've never understood this attitude from pool players. They are the ones that are in need of the stake money, the person doing the staking is the one that should be in control of how the money gets distributed. Obviously it should be discussed beforehand.

It makes absolutly no sense to stake anyone at anything and they get to basically "free roll" on your money each night. I've personally seen this happen.....player X plays three different nights on stake horse Y's money. They lose 1k on first night, 3k on second night, then win 3k on third night. Now player X expects 1500........that's complete bullshit. Even if the stake horse pays the player 0$, he is still stuck 1k.....if he pays 1500, he's now stuck 2500 and the player is up 1500 while taking NO risk.

Again, unless you are consistently backing the best in the world, you will come out a loser by paying out before current and past expenses are recouped. This is another one of the nails that has been driven into pool's coffin.

For players who disagree with this approach, answer these simple questions......why should somoene back you and pay you out each night like everything starts over? What do you bring to the table that puts you in spot to free roll on my money? I would be better off side betting on your game in that case. There is a reason you need my money, and not the other way around. So why should I take 100% of the risk to make much less than 50%?
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Seconded. Backing is an investment. Why should I invest unless I have a positive expected return?

If I'm OK losing money for the thrill of it, why am I backing you? I have more fun playing than watching. I'll just stake myself and give someone else the nuts. I am still expected to lose money but at least now I have the thrill of playing a strong player.
 
Ok, i staked a player in a match of 1 pocket race to 4 for a 1000, my player lost.

Now we are stuck a 1000 dollars.

They play another set the same way, my player wins.

Now we are even!

Sounds like if JJ was backing this player he would hand him 500 dollars!

If so he would be the only stakehorse that ever lived to do that!

I always keep track of my standings when i back a player, cause if we are stuck an amount, he must get us even before we split any thing!
 
In our pool room In Baltimore, if a stakehorse was backing a player in a set, not by the game, the player would get 30% of the winnings, now this is in a very tough game, which could go either way, THERES NO STAKEHORSE IN THE COUNTRY GOING TO BACK A PLAYER IN A BIG SET FOR 1000S OF DOLLARS AND SPLIT IT EVENLY WHILE PLAYING IN A TOUGH GAME, PLAYER WOULD BE LUCKY TO GET 40%.

NOw playing by the game is different, because you can win alot more then what you are willing to lose, for instance i could give my player 100 dollars to play 20 a game, well my player mite turn that 100 into 1000s, so there that would be a 50 -50 split.
 
iusedtoberich said:
The horse makes the rules. Like superstar said, backers are a dime a dozen. From most of what I've seen, backers are generally weak players looking for excitement from what they can't do themselves. Because of this, the horse makes all the rules, and can throw a dime to find another backer if his current one isn't behaving to his satisfaction.

<==== former backer, learned my lesson. lol.
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Iam sorry but i think you guys got this wrong, broke players are a dime a dozen, not backers.

Well in my area any way!

There are a lot more sharper backers out there then players, just ask around!
 
SUPERSTAR said:
Broke pool players who feel they are entitled to as much profit as possible from being put into the box by someone, because they are soooo damn talented, need to be chucked into a dumpster, and have their cues cracked over their head.
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These arseholes are why I no longer back anyone.
 
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