Question: Better to play with unsealed shaft??

Jive

Jive

Professional Racker
Silver Member
Is it true that a shaft plays livelier when any form of sealant or wax isn't on the shaft? What is the use of sealant and wax besides keeping the shaft clean and reduced bluing?

I know this question sounds silly bit there's an ongoing debate in a Chinese forum and I started a thread there. There's a habit here in this part of the world where they "open" the shafts by sanding or removing the top layer of the shaft on a lathe claiming the cue plays much livelier.

I personally don't believe it's true especially if it's not paint finishing on the full shaft but just wax or sealant. However I would like expert opinions especially from cuemakers on this.

Thanks in advance for all valuable inputs!
 
If the player believes that the cue is livelier, then it IS livelier.

I don't remember ever seeing an empirical measurement of "liveliness" - just personal opinion.

My 2 cents,

Gary
 
Jive said:
Is it true that a shaft plays livelier when any form of sealant or wax isn't on the shaft? What is the use of sealant and wax besides keeping the shaft clean and reduced bluing?

I know this question sounds silly bit there's an ongoing debate in a Chinese forum and I started a thread there. There's a habit here in this part of the world where they "open" the shafts by sanding or removing the top layer of the shaft on a lathe claiming the cue plays much livelier.

I personally don't believe it's true especially if it's not paint finishing on the full shaft but just wax or sealant. However I would like expert opinions especially from cuemakers on this.

Thanks in advance for all valuable inputs!
Click to expand...

Shafts feel better in the hands it there is a little sealer and wax on them. I don't think there is any change in how it plays. Try not to over think it. It is just a piece of wood.

Kim
 
DoubleD said:
I completely disagree. The last cue I ordered, I specifically told the CM to not put anything on the shaft.

When I was making cues, I never put anything on the shaft, except for the last 10in or so.

I remove anything from all of my shafts when I get them.

Most people who play with my shafts comment on how smooth they are and how easily they glide through the bridge.

dld
Click to expand...

Probably because they have never cleaned their own......
 
This doesn't make sense to me from the perspective that the so-called blueing of shafts over the years goes along with the wood being virtually impregnated with hand oil/grease, which in my opinion protects the shaft better than any product out there, keeps it more stable and consistent in weight and flexibility, as well as hardens the surface so it's ever-so-slightly more resistant to dents. There's never going to be "nothing" on a shaft unless it's kept unused. Although it may look ugly, I prefer leaving that "patina" on a used shaft alone.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti
 
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Thanks for all the reply thus far but i'm still looking for more cuemakers and repair guys to come in and discuss this subject.

I have 2 questions still:

1) Does Sealant or Wax on a shaft affect the properties of the shaft wood? ie, more flex, livelier hit because wood pores are unclogged and raw thus able to breathe and perform better for shooting?

2) Does anyone put any finishing on their shafts for any reasons (besides the joint ends)? Pertaining to Custom Shafts & Production Shafts like Predator, Mezz, Pechauer.....

What i gathered thus far is that it's all in the mind and there really isn't any proof the shaft plays better. Perhaps it's smoother, but that's all?
 
It has 100% zero effect on playability. It is not thick enough to be any kind of vapor barrier so it breathes as well.

The effectiveness of it is simply to allow a slippery non stick stroke. Though you don't see it anymore in the older rooms they used to have talc dispensors in white to prevent you from having clammy hands. I forget in what year but they introduced a hair product as a hand product to prevent the hand clams. Then you have those that wear gloves.

You have a percentage of c to A+ players that will have their shafts cleaned and sealed every chance the get. You have a percentage that even when putting new ferrules on, touch the blue I'll kill ya.

If the shaft feels good while sliding through your fingers your mind says, the world is fine, if the shaft does not slide right through your fingers the mind says somethings wrong and you will miss more often.

Yet through all the BS you may say, think or hear 99% of the time the superior player will win with sealer or not.
 
I don't think it's better at all but I do not like a heavy finish or coating on the playing area of my shafts. If the shaft is not sealed properly to begin with, there's a chance you'll be dealing with the fuzzy grain feeling on your hands. I do like to take 1500, 2000, 2500 santo the playing area of my shafts on occasion. I also wipe my shaft with a damp paper towel followed by vigorous wiping with clother towel. I highly prefer to keep my hands and equipment clean. I maximize my shooting enjoyment that way. The liveliness/ deadness of a shaft is more a characteristic of the shaft taper, tip, ferrule and quality/ density/ tone of the shaft blank, IMO. YMMV.

Martin
 
Jive said:
Is it true that a shaft plays livelier when any form of sealant or wax isn't on the shaft? What is the use of sealant and wax besides keeping the shaft clean and reduced bluing?

I know this question sounds silly bit there's an ongoing debate in a Chinese forum and I started a thread there. There's a habit here in this part of the world where they "open" the shafts by sanding or removing the top layer of the shaft on a lathe claiming the cue plays much livelier.

I personally don't believe it's true especially if it's not paint finishing on the full shaft but just wax or sealant. However I would like expert opinions especially from cuemakers on this.

Thanks in advance for all valuable inputs!
Click to expand...

:lol::rotflmao::rotflmao1::lol: The chinese material experts, :rotflmao1::lol:

Sorry, nothing against chinese people!! They are mostly very friendly. But I've worked a couple of times in Shanghai and other cities and I experienced the most stupid results in work only in china.

So, now I try to be a little mir objective again: My experience is like this:

- If you have a seler based on lacquer --> sand it off, it slides much too bad in your hand.

- If you have a sealer based on wax, the amount of wax could be too much --> sand it off only a part of it

- If the wax-based sealer is not dried a 100 %, but the amount is OK --> rub it hot with the backsinde of a fine sandpaper and let it several days dry completely.

- Oil-based sealers my not dry completely to have a good slide, it depends on the kind of oil.

And: Non-sealed shafts slide as good as a well sealed shafts, but not better. (A bad slide is the most reason why people may think that the sealer kills the liveliness.)

(A well made sealer only is in the pores of the wood and not over the whole surface. Filling the pores is the effect that prevents from getting dirty too quick and it gives a better base for an easier cleaning. It is also very important to have as few pores as possible before sealing! --> sanding the shaft very well and fine).

A wax-based sealer (or oil- / silicon-based), put on in the right way and dried accordingly will slide as well as a well sanded non-sealed shaft. Depending on what kind of wax it is it takes a couple of minutes or a week to be dry.

And a well made, well sliding sealer influences the shaft's "liveliness" and everything, that describes the shaft's performance, in no way.
 
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Jive said:
Thanks for all the reply thus far but i'm still looking for more cuemakers and repair guys to come in and discuss this subject.

I have 2 questions still:

1) Does Sealant or Wax on a shaft affect the properties of the shaft wood? ie, more flex, livelier hit because wood pores are unclogged and raw thus able to breathe and perform better for shooting?

2) Does anyone put any finishing on their shafts for any reasons (besides the joint ends)? Pertaining to Custom Shafts & Production Shafts like Predator, Mezz, Pechauer.....

What i gathered thus far is that it's all in the mind and there really isn't any proof the shaft plays better. Perhaps it's smoother, but that's all?
Click to expand...

I have never experienced that a sealer affects the way a shaft plays, merely whether or not it sticks to one's fingers. Having said that, I've had negative experiences with some products insofar as they either made the wood pores rise (water) or shrink (alcohol etc.?), and some, such as wax-based furniture polish, make the surface ever-so-slightly more vulnerable to dents.

One of the finest sealers is skin oil/fat. Think about it, ultimately that's what's going on it anyhow. I believe the first to tell me were the Franklins. Mike Lambros actually recommends wiping the grease off one's sweaty forehead, and rub that on a new shaft. I don't sweat enough to be able to do this, but it's kind of obvious that the patina on e.g. my 21-year-old curly maple Southwest shaft consists entirely of a combination of skin oil and chalk. The trick is not to put anything else on a shaft, and not to clean it aggressively, nor sand it, in short, it's a matter of using it patiently. It works.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti
 
Jive said:
Is it true that a shaft plays livelier when any form of sealant or wax isn't on the shaft? What is the use of sealant and wax besides keeping the shaft clean and reduced bluing?

I know this question sounds silly bit there's an ongoing debate in a Chinese forum and I started a thread there. There's a habit here in this part of the world where they "open" the shafts by sanding or removing the top layer of the shaft on a lathe claiming the cue plays much livelier.

I personally don't believe it's true especially if it's not paint finishing on the full shaft but just wax or sealant. However I would like expert opinions especially from cuemakers on this.

Thanks in advance for all valuable inputs!
Click to expand...

Jive,

Frankly I don't know any cue maker that does not seal their shafts. Rapid Pads, Shellack, Lacquer Sealer and a lot of other wood sealing products are used for this purpose and many CM dilute stuff with denatured alcohol or the likes. Many of these products also produce a grain raise that is lightly sanded before the finishing process.

There are also a variety of wax or finish products that are also used and both the sealer, wax and finish products are used in combination to make the discrete recipe that each CM uses. Of coarse each CM thinks his ways is the right way.

As far as the playability is concerned I don't think a sealer has that big of an input to the feel or the hit as much as a CM who dips and soaks his shafts in a wood stabilizers like Nelsonite or Resolute. Now thats a different animal of topics. These product may have a big impact on the playability comparatively I am told. I don't personally use them so I can't draw any comparisons. I just hear things. No way is right or wrong, just different.

JMO,

Rick
 
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riedmich said:
:lol::rotflmao::rotflmao1::lol: The chinese material experts, :rotflmao1::lol:

Sorry, nothing against chinese people!! They are mostly very friendly. But I've worked a couple of times in Shanghai and other cities and I experienced the most stupid results in work only in china.

So, now I try to be a little mir objective again: My experience is like this:

- If you have a seler based on lacquer --> sand it off, it slides much too bad in your hand.

- If you have a sealer based on wax, the amount of wax could be too much --> sand it off only a part of it

- If the wax-based sealer is not dried a 100 %, but the amount is OK --> rub it hot with the backsinde of a fine sandpaper and let it several days dry completely.

- Oil-based sealers my not dry completely to have a good slide, it depends on the kind of oil.

And: Non-sealed shafts slide as good as a well sealed shafts, but not better. (A bad slide is the most reason why people may think that the sealer kills the liveliness.)

(A well made sealer only is in the pores of the wood and not over the whole surface. Filling the pores is the effect that prevents from getting dirty too quick and it gives a better base for an easier cleaning. It is also very important to have as few pores as possible before sealing! --> sanding the shaft very well and fine).

A wax-based sealer (or oil- / silicon-based), put on in the right way and dried accordingly will slide as well as a well sanded non-sealed shaft. Depending on what kind of wax it is it takes a couple of minutes or a week to be dry.

And a well made, well sliding sealer influences the shaft's "liveliness" and everything, that describes the shaft's performance, in no way.
Click to expand...


You seem highly opinionated. Are you sure you are correct?

Kim
 
Hi Kim,

I'm surely not correct if it's going about my joke about chinese experts if you take it general, but I have my personal experiences. A joke should be allowed and sometimes you laugh about others. But I respect each single person on this planet, believe me. You can make also jokes about me as a german, it's OK, I can laugh with you. Everybody has his faults.

If it is about the sealing issue my experience is correct, but I'm always curious to learn also from others.
 
IMHO it would have to be a significant amount of sealer or wax to effect the playability, as the original poster has stated, I think a lot of that is mental. That being said, then yeah...the mental aspect WILL effect the playability :)

Of course, it can make the shaft feel different in my opinion. Some players swear by waxing, some swear at it...again, to each their own. I think a lot of that depends on the players hands, how sweaty they are, humidity of where they are playing, etc. Lots of variables from which experience is the best learning tool.

Me myself... I love the smooth feeling of a freshly cleaned and waxed shaft. Hard to beat it. But for longevity, it seems that an unsealed shaft stays smoother longer to me, although it won't be as smooth out of the gate.

Just my $.02 opinion at no cost to you...
 
There is no logical reason to explain how a sealer could effect how a cue plays. It reduces moisture transfer and helps it glide through your fingers more smoothly. It also aids slightly in keeping the shaft clean. That's it.
 
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