Questions Regarding Issues Raised In TAR 29 Podcast

9 ball

9 ball

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I was watching this weeks TAR podcast & yet again it seems like Mark & Justin are just rehashing the same stuff week after week talking about the game being in the doldrums, the APB, bonus ball etc.

The thing that really catches my attention almost everytime there has been a podcast is Justin continually says that he does not care about international events yet he wants to see the game grow particularly in the US, well I got news for you the game will forever be stuck in the dark ages if the US players don't start to travel & promote the game worldwide the way that the women do so in the WPBA.

Mark raised the point in the podcast the the game in the US is fractured because everyone is looking for control of the game, what needs to happen is the BCA HAS TO step in & lay down the law by saying we are the sanctioning body in the US, the WPA use our ranking list & we will run a tour for men in the United States.

The ONLY way your game in the US is going to survive is if 1 & only 1 governing body (BCA) takes control & stops the players dictating what will happen & when, maybe then the game will be as solid in the US as it is in Europe & Asia.
 
The BCA has all but dropped the ball on professional pool. IMHO, this is why there's so much chaos and confusion, allowing entities like the ABP to come forth and try to establish itself like the UPA did before it failed.

Players shouldn't be running the governing bodies of professional pool. No way! Too much of a chance for favoritism and non-transparency behind the closed curtain.

Truly, if the BCA doesn't give a damn about pro players in North America, they should indeed relinquish themselves and find a suitable replacement to represent North America to the WPA. What or who that should be is the $64,000 question.

American players are starving, fighting for crumbs, competing in $2,000-added tournaments to survive, competing alongside amateurs and social shooters. You can't expect them to travel around the globe and represent the U.S. when they're broke to begin with. The BCA's industry members don't give a damn. In fact, it seems like they sponsor *and* favor non-North American pro players. I am reminded of the BCA sending a pro player from Finland to China on a BCA ticket, stating that no Americans could afford and/or wanted to go.

Why would anybody in America be interested in international pool when only two or three Americans attend these events competing against countries who do support their players? It's like America has one or two players, and other countries have 10 and 20 players overseas. Therein lies the problem.

As far as the ladies, well, isn't it interesting to have non-American lady pros represent themselves as Americans sometimes and their native country other times. Whatever is convenient and fits, they can switch both ways.

If Thorsten lives in America, maybe he should represent America, as should Jose Parica. Food for thought in this crazy, mixed-up, wonderful world of American pool. :grin-square:
 
9 ball said:
I was watching this weeks TAR podcast & yet again it seems like Mark & Justin are just rehashing the same stuff week after week talking about the game being in the doldrums, the APB, bonus ball etc.

The thing that really catches my attention almost everytime there has been a podcast is Justin continually says that he does not care about international events yet he wants to see the game grow particularly in the US, well I got news for you the game will forever be stuck in the dark ages if the US players don't start to travel & promote the game worldwide the way that the women do so in the WPBA.

Mark raised the point in the podcast the the game in the US is fractured because everyone is looking for control of the game, what needs to happen is the BCA HAS TO step in & lay down the law by saying we are the sanctioning body in the US, the WPA use our ranking list & we will run a tour for men in the United States.

The ONLY way your game in the US is going to survive is if 1 & only 1 governing body (BCA) takes control & stops the players dictating what will happen & when, maybe then the game will be as solid in the US as it is in Europe & Asia.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your ideas about pool. Everyone's ideas about making the game better are important. However, I have to disagree with you about a couple assumptions that you make.

First, the BCA is a controlled by the industry leaders. They sell billiard products to people that largely do not attend this site. We are a vast minority of the billiard consumers in the US. Yes, we are more informed and care more about the advancement of pool (particularly pro pool) than all of the rich, furniture pool table consumers. The BCA simply cares about selling more high-priced pool tables. I do believe that they would like to care about pro-pool players, but at this recession time they are not able to support it.

Second, I lived in Europe from 2002 to 2007 and will tell you that pool is not in the same shape as here. It is not easy to find quality pool rooms outside of large cities. Yes, you can find tables in the internet gambling stores that are around, but not poolrooms like we have here. I am sure that the Euro's will chime in, but they haven't lived here to find the same pool atmosphere. This doesn't mean that I didn't love living in the EU, if the money was right, I would be back there in a heartbeat. Lastly, our pool community isn't bad, it is our premier players that aren't competing internationally as often. We are losing top quality players to jobs and they are competing on a recreational platform, not a professional platform (which hinders their advancement).

In addition, I believe that many of the Euro players came over here in the 90's and thought that most of us were obnoxious, self-centered community (I don't mean the US, but our small underground pool community--of course not everyone---but I imagine that we all would know certain individuals around every pool room that we could point to this about). They took those views, along with the public whippings that they encountered over those years and decided to become more focused than our players. In time, they accomplished beating the us players and continue to get psyched up to play our best players every time. We still have a target on us. The whole pool world gets up for our matches. And unfortunately, our players have to face the fact that they can only win if their will is stronger than the opponent that they are playing against, not matter where that player comes from.
 
Instead of just laying blame and pointing fingers, come up with a solid idea on how to make a pro tour financially sustainable. Not, "well an investor will drop out of the sky that wants to give away their money", but an actual plan to make it worth the while to invest in it.

Don't compare one sport to another, but maybe take a look at them and figure out what they did to make it work and incorporate those ideas. Look at other countries and how or why they support pool. What are the players like? Are all the other countries the same? What do they have in common? You could name (this year's president) for all the woes, or a trade organization that has no financial reason to throw away money. But you could give them something to work with.

Or ... sit around on the internet telling war stories and complaining. That solves everything.
 
TAR podcast topics

The topics of the podcast are reactive to the issues of the last week or so before the show.

The main topic of #29 was the impact caused by cancelling or changing dates for events.
We also talked about seeding for a few minutes.

This is to hopefully get the attention of the various promoters.

If the norm is constantly changing dates then you will see players, sponsors, and the industry lose some of their interest.

The must be some protocol on behavior.

This is not saying the industry is in the doldrums - this is stating what should be obvious.

We also talk about whatever comes into our heads ( or suggested by an posters or those in the chat room). I guess I am one of those people who will make a comment on just about any topic.

Glad you listened to the podcast. They are not for everyone and I probably aggravate as many people as i educate. But i look at this whole adventure as an opportuntiy to get some intelligent discussions started- and to call out the people who (I feel) hurt the game.

I am available to discuss ANYTHING that I have said. I am not made or sad about much. Just bringing it out into the daylight to be discussed and hopefully resolved.

Mark Grifffin
Markg@playcsipoolcom
 
Someone on AZ once said that all American pro pool needs is 10 tournaments per year with $1,000,000 added prize money per tournament. Since the BCA is comprised of industry businesses, do they have the resources to make that happen? Would a solid, $10,000,000 per year pro tour increase pool's TV visibility enough to create new interest and to bring new amateur players into the game and thus generate more future sales for these industry members?

Maybe $10,000,000 per year is too optimistic currently. But it seems that the BCA should be putting this kind of plan into action with as much money as they can to get it rolling. How about $1,000,000 per year, with 10 tournaments having $100,000 added? Wouldn't that be great? Wouldn't that be achievable as a beginning?

If the BCA isn't willing to do something to promote American pro pool, then what gives them the right to be the custodian of the Hall of Fame for crying out loud!?

In my opinion, they (or somebody) should do a couple of other things too...

Facilitate top quality TV coverage of a pro tour and get it out there where it will be seen by the mass public in order to bring new amateur players into the game. Perhaps BCA members who contribute to the tour's prize funds should automatically get advertising time.

Develop, promote and contribute to youth programs to bring new, young amateur players into the game.

Eliminate the public image of the pool player as a hustler, again to bring new amateur players into the game. Having a strong, legitimate pro tour would be a good start here. The viewership then needs to be educated that these pros are not the same thing as hustlers. (Note, I am making a distinction between hustling and gambling. But, in my opinion, even gambling needs to NOT be discussed on TV in order to "sell" pool to the general public.) And subsequently televised pro tournaments would be a fantastic opportunity to educate the public about the existence of amateur leagues, and for specific leagues to advertise.

Fatz
 
...And the game that needs to be played on TV is 8-ball because that's the game the general public knows. (If you run 8-ball matches on TV, you probably need a shot clock. I'm not a big fan of the shot clock, but for TV time slot purposes, you probably have to have it.)
 
$25,000 a year grant to run the office by the BCA.

9 ball said:
I was watching this weeks TAR podcast & yet again it seems like Mark & Justin are just rehashing the same stuff week after week talking about the game being in the doldrums, the APB, bonus ball etc.

The thing that really catches my attention almost everytime there has been a podcast is Justin continually says that he does not care about international events yet he wants to see the game grow particularly in the US, well I got news for you the game will forever be stuck in the dark ages if the US players don't start to travel & promote the game worldwide the way that the women do so in the WPBA.

Mark raised the point in the podcast the the game in the US is fractured because everyone is looking for control of the game, what needs to happen is the BCA HAS TO step in & lay down the law by saying we are the sanctioning body in the US, the WPA use our ranking list & we will run a tour for men in the United States.

The ONLY way your game in the US is going to survive is if 1 & only 1 governing body (BCA) takes control & stops the players dictating what will happen & when, maybe then the game will be as solid in the US as it is in Europe & Asia.
Click to expand...

When I ran the Professional CueSports Association that did all the ESPN Events with the WPBA in 96-99 I was given a $25,000 a year grant to run the office by the BCA.

They also sponsored several tournaments and ran TV Commercials designed to increase awareness and interest in Pocket Billiards in the USA. Do they still do these things? I haven't heard anything about what is budgeted each year to just promote pool.

Does anyone know the answer to these questions? There are things that can be done right away if they are willing to assist, and we would need to know what they're willing/capable of doing.
 
TAR podcast #29

This is addressed to Pre-Flag Master:

PLEASE reread you post!
There has been only gazillions of threads on this topic over the years.

The BCA does not have the money to even think about 'your solution' - and it is not their job.

I don't get it - some of us are really trying to get pool on a good foundation, and people come on here and solve it all by having 'someone' put up $10M to solve the problem.

Makes me want to go out and get drunk.

Where o where is some logic?.??.??.?.?

Mark griffin
 
the solution suggested is like my problem'
all i need is a stakehorse with 10million for me to play one pocket and we could have action in dallas again

easy fix

another idea is for mark to start collecting cues again and call me
 
9 ball said:
I was watching this weeks TAR podcast & yet again it seems like Mark & Justin are just rehashing the same stuff week after week talking about the game being in the doldrums, the APB, bonus ball etc.
Click to expand...

I agree with you to an extent but what would you have us talk about? Thats whats happening now.

As to my view on international events its just the truth about how I see things. Some events are getting better with being able to actually watch them and that is a good thing. As for some event somewhere that uses a goofy format, goofy equipment and I cant watch it why would I care about it? Just because it has "World" somewhere in the name doesnt mean anything to me personally.

IMO part of the problem currently in pool is not that no one is trying to do something its that TOO DAMN MANY people are trying to do small things. As soon as someone comes up with a model that is self sustaining without the always talked about and rarely seen "sponsors" being responsible for funding everything then and only then will you see pro pool change in this country.

That is why I am a believer in the USAPL. The model is sound and is the only one I have ever seen that makes sense and actually has the infrastructure in place . The problem is no one seems to knows about it. That is something we want to try to fix in the future.
 
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Mark Griffin said:
This is addressed to Pre-Flag Master:

PLEASE reread you post!
There has been only gazillions of threads on this topic over the years.

The BCA does not have the money to even think about 'your solution' - and it is not their job.

I don't get it - some of us are really trying to get pool on a good foundation, and people come on here and solve it all by having 'someone' put up $10M to solve the problem.

Makes me want to go out and get drunk.

Where o where is some logic?.??.??.?.?

Mark griffin
Click to expand...

Well Mark, would YOU please re-read my post? If you didn't notice, much of it was presented in the form of questions. I have not read the multitude of threads on this topic. This topic is something that has only recently become of interest to me, if that's OK with you.

Rather than being snide, rather than getting drunk, why don't you just explain to me why it is not their job? If it's not their job, why wouldn't they want to make it their job? Advancing the world of pool would, in part, serve to increase their members' profitability, right?

What's wrong with my logic? If you are willing to explain it to me in a polite way, I am willing to listen. Why wouldn't investing money in pool help? Is it only because my specific suggestions are not the right way to invest the money? If so, then what is the right way? Surely you're not saying that money can't help.

As for the BCA not having the resources, that was one of my questions, if you re-read my post. Perhaps the BCA should make it a priority to recruit some new industry members that have more money to invest. The caveat to this is that we are in a recession, as was mentioned earlier, and maybe the time is not right.

But I would appreciate it if you wrote an informative and constructive reply, rather than saying you'd like to get drunk just because I haven't read the gazillions of threads that have come before this.

BTW, I'm know a little about what you do, but I'm not sure I know the full extent. Are you a member of the BCA? If you are, please know that I am not intentionally trying to ruffle any feathers here. I just made some suggestions from the point of view of an amateur pool player, who loves the game, but who is an outsider to the 'industry'.

Fatz
 
a "TOUR" it's like a charity, a non profit charity

deanoc said:
the solution suggested is like my problem'
all i need is a stakehorse with 10million for me to play one pocket and we could have action in dallas again

easy fix

another idea is for mark to start collecting cues again and call me
Click to expand...


That does sound like a good idea, however, I'm just trying to see if the BCA still offers grant money for people like me that want to help without drawing a salary?

I've had people approach me to get involved, but if the BCA doesn't want to budget anything towards Professional Pool then I will keep everything privately funded. It just seems odd that the BCA stopped giving grants. I've mentioned it several times and no one even knows what I'm talking about.

I hope everyone realizes to run a "TOUR" it's like a charity, a non profit charity is how it''s usually structured from my experience in the 90's.

It's difficult for people like my associates in Dallas, that have access to funds, experience and willingness, to get involved in a charity. If it can't make money then I can see why no one wants to get involved, especially if they have expertice in High Volume Businesses. 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
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JCIN said:
IMO part of the problem currently in pool is not that no one is trying to do something its that TOO DAMN MANY people are trying to do small things. As soon as someone comes up with a model that is self sustaining without the always talked about and rarely seen "sponsors" being responsible for funding everything then and only then will you see pro pool change in this country.
Click to expand...

Couldn't the BCA be the single entity that does the one big thing? Or at least eventually? Couldn't the "industry members" of the BCA be the "sponsors".

I don't think pro pool can be self sustaining can it? I guess a league can be self sustaining because people are paying for their own entertainment. But professional pool players are getting paid by someone else - that's the definition of pro. I don't see where that money comes from if not sponsors.

Perhaps it could come from viewership payment a la PPV. But that won't happen until pool gets popular enough (again), which in turn won't happen until something makes a gazillion people suddenly want to start watching.

That something would be million dollar prize-funded tournaments. So basically I'm saying that pro pool needs a kick start - a sudden large influx of money from somewhere. If pro players were in a position to win hundreds of thousands of dollars, that's when people would start watching again.

I wasn't into pool during the IPT era, but it seems to me they were on the right track, but then flubbed it up - the prize money was TOO big. KT was not the right person to be the leader of pool, and whatever else happened there.

Why can't the BCA be the legitimate KT? Can they eventually find the money if they start thinking in terms of fund raising (or do they do that already, albeit on too small a scale because of the recession?). If the BCA could do this, they would then naturally be viewed as the single, respected, authoritative (in a good way) leader on the American pool scene.

So is this a good paradigm; make pool grow by fixing pro pool first, this will in turn make amateur pool grow...?
 
Pre-Flag Master said:
Couldn't the BCA be the single entity that does the one big thing? Or at least eventually? Couldn't the "industry members" of the BCA be the "sponsors".

I don't think pro pool can be self sustaining can it? I guess a league can be self sustaining because people are paying for their own entertainment. But professional pool players are getting paid by someone else - that's the definition of pro. I don't see where that money comes from if not sponsors.

Perhaps it could come from viewership payment a la PPV. But that won't happen until pool gets popular enough (again), which in turn won't happen until something makes a gazillion people suddenly want to start watching.

That something would be million dollar prize-funded tournaments. So basically I'm saying that pro pool needs a kick start - a sudden large influx of money from somewhere. If pro players were in a position to win hundreds of thousands of dollars, that's when people would start watching again.

I wasn't into pool during the IPT era, but it seems to me they were on the right track, but then flubbed it up - the prize money was TOO big. KT was not the right person to be the leader of pool, and whatever else happened there.

Why can't the BCA be the legitimate KT? Can they eventually find the money if they start thinking in terms of fund raising (or do they do that already, albeit on too small a scale because of the recession?). If the BCA could do this, they would then naturally be viewed as the single, respected, authoritative (in a good way) leader on the American pool scene.

So is this a good paradigm; make pool grow by fixing pro pool first, this will in turn make amateur pool grow...?
Click to expand...
Answer one question first: Why would someone risk millions of dollars on a game and players that have a history of not making a return on investment?

The BCA is not some mythical entity on high sitting on a huge bankroll and just not giving it out to the pro players. Its made up of people who already have businesses to run. It is a trade group that happens to be the designated WPA representative for the USA. I think you are making an assumption that the BCA has the financial resources to do some of the things you are talking about. To my knowledge no such resources exist.

I know many people in the industry who no longer are dues paying BCA members simply because they saw no value in it. Several felt their votes didnt really matter when it came to scheduling the one thing the BCA does that people care about and that is or was the BCA trade show. They simply dropped out. When you lose paying members you lose revenue. When your main source of income (a trade show) goes in the tank you lose income. With income sources dwindling it is a hard sell to throw money you dont really have at an endeavor that has never even been able to pay for itself.

The IPT was proof throwing money at something is not the answer. You alluded to it in your post. The thing is if you rely on someone to put serious money into something you can also rely on them to do things how they want to do them not necessarily how they should be done based on past experience. My experience is the type of person who has that money to spend also has a very firm mindset on how things will be done and if it doesnt happen to their satisfaction they go do something else. It has happened several times in recent memory. Think of all the first annual events never to be heard from again.

Amateur pool is fine. Why? It has a model that makes sense.

End of the day you do not need millions of dollars for pro pool to grow in the US. What you need is to build a dedicated fan base, access that fan base through the media available today and provide a good product. But...before you can do that there must be some organization...but before you have organization you must have money, then you must have the players buy in with actual skin in the game. See why I kick puppies now ?

Edit to add: You can also do everything right and still lose. So theres that to consider as well.
 
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JCIN said:
Answer one question first: Why would someone risk millions of dollars on a game and players that have a history of not making a return on investment?
Click to expand...

Well because that someone (the BCA) already has a vested interest in having pro pool succeed. Now I do get the point that the BCA does not have $10,000,000 in their bank account right now (and for the record, I never assumed that they did). How will it ever get there?... It sounds like you are saying it won't ever get there because even the industry members of the BCA won't buy into the idea that a successful pro pool tour would create more demand for their products, because they have no confidence in the future of pro pool in the first place. You are saying it's a catch 22, and that essentially there is no hope for pro pool. Do I understand you right?

Sad to think that the BCA doesn't really believe in "pool". Just in the products their own member companies sell.

JCIN said:
Amateur pool is fine. Why? It has a model that makes sense.
Click to expand...

I wasn't saying amateur pool is not fine (if that's what you thought I meant). I was saying that if amateur pool grows even more, you have more revenue in the form of sponsorship money. And pool halls start opening again BTW.

Again, though, amateur pool players are paying for their own entertainment, so a self-sustaining model is achievable. Pro players, by definition, are being paid with money that comes from elsewhere.

JCIN said:
End of the day you do not need millions of dollars for pro pool to grow in the US. What you need is to build a dedicated fan base, access that fan base through the media available today and provide a good product. But...before you can do that there must be some organization...but before you have organization you must have money, then you must have the players buy in with actual skin in the game. See why I kick puppies now ?
Click to expand...

First thing you said is "you do not need millions of dollars for pro pool to grow." Then close to the end you say, "you must have money." We agree on money being key. What kind of money are you talking about and for exactly what purpose?

My $10M figure was based on the idea that 10 tournaments per year with $1M prize funds per tournament would work. But now I'm saying the BCA needs to - eventually - raise some money to initially kick start it. The fact that the money isn't there doesn't make the idea wrong, impractical for now yes, but wrong?

I'm going to organize what you just said in a different sequence...

1. "there must be some organization..."
-The BCA already exists.​
2. "you must have money..."
-There's the problem, so the BCA needs to hurry up and get started.​
3. "you must have the players buy in with actual skin in the game..."
-With $1M prize funds they would.​
4. "provide a good product..."
-That's what #3 does, plus you need good quality event video production.​
5. "access that fan base through the media available today..."
-Air the events, no problem.​
6. "What you need is to build a dedicated fan base..."
-I disagree, build the product so that the fan base will come. Pool has some degree of public interest, but it needs to be put in front of their faces, like back on ESPN - a lot.​

I think I see your point. The money isn't there. And it does not come from some benevolent, generous benefactor, hence the people who talk about this just go round in circles. I think "we" just don't want to admit that the problem really is fixable, but the fix is out of our reach. And hence we end up kicking puppies. Am I getting it now?

So if I'm getting it now, I say the onus is on the BCA, I say let's put the onus on the BCA, I say the BCA needs to put the onus on themselves. Again, I'm thinking if they don't re-create pro pool, what right do they have to over-see the Hall of Fame?

I paid Accu-stats $7 to watch the final match of the US Open. That's a good deal, I'm satisfied with the product and the value. But I would rather see the US Open final live on ESPN. When that happens, then you will know that pro pool has been reborn. That's a big goal. It would take a lot of money to get there, but not money just being thrown at the problem haphazardly.

I admit I don't know the ins and outs of the industry and the BCA, but it seems to me the BCA is in the best position to do something. Not that it could be done over-night, I understand that now. But the question is do they have the fortitude to dedicating themselves to raising the first $10M in say the next five years? And do they have the ability even if they did dedicate themselves?

Does the idea of a $10M per year pro tour fix the problem? Am I wrong to say the onus should be on the BCA to come up with that money? If not the BCA then who?
 
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Pre-Flag Master said:
Well because that someone (the BCA) already has a vested interest in having pro pool succeed. Now I do get the point that the BCA does not have $10,000,000 in their bank account right now (and for the record, I never assumed that they did). How will it ever get there?... It sounds like you are saying it won't ever get there because even the industry members of the BCA won't buy into the idea that a successful pro pool tour would create more demand for their products, because they have no confidence in the future of pro pool in the first place. You are saying it's a catch 22, and that essentially there is no hope for pro pool. Do I understand you right?

Sad to think that the BCA doesn't really believe in "pool". Just in the products their own member companies sell.



I wasn't saying amateur pool is not fine (if that's what you thought I meant). I was saying that if amateur pool grows even more, you have more revenue in the form of sponsorship money. And pool halls start opening again BTW.

Again, though, amateur pool players are paying for their own entertainment, so a self-sustaining model is achievable. Pro players, by definition, are being paid with money that comes from elsewhere.



First thing you said is "you do not need millions of dollars for pro pool to grow." Then close to the end you say, "you must have money." We agree on money being key. What kind of money are you talking about and for exactly what purpose?

My $10M figure was based on the idea that 10 tournaments per year with $1M prize funds per tournament would work. But now I'm saying the BCA needs to - eventually - raise some money to initially kick start it. The fact that the money isn't there doesn't make the idea wrong, impractical for now yes, but wrong?

I'm going to organize what you just said in a different sequence...

1. "there must be some organization..."
-The BCA already exists.​
2. "you must have money..."
-There's the problem, so the BCA needs to hurry up and get started.​
3. "you must have the players buy in with actual skin in the game..."
-With $1M prize funds they would.​
4. "provide a good product..."
-That's what #3 does, plus you need good quality event video production.​
5. "access that fan base through the media available today..."
-Air the events, no problem.​
6. "What you need is to build a dedicated fan base..."
-I disagree, build the product so that the fan base will come. Pool has some degree of public interest, but it needs to be put in front of their faces, like back on ESPN - a lot.​

I think I see your point. The money isn't there. And it does not come from some benevolent, generous benefactor, hence the people who talk about this just go round in circles. I think "we" just don't want to admit that the problem really is fixable, but the fix is out of our reach. And hence we end up kicking puppies. Am I getting it now?

So if I'm getting it now, I say the onus is on the BCA, I say let's put the onus on the BCA, I say the BCA needs to put the onus on themselves. Again, I'm thinking if they don't re-create pro pool, what right do they have to over-see the Hall of Fame?

I paid Accu-stats $7 to watch the final match of the US Open. That's a good deal, I'm satisfied with the product and the value. But I would rather see the US Open final live on ESPN. When that happens, then you will know that pro pool has been reborn. That's a big goal. It would take a lot of money to get there, but not money just being thrown at the problem haphazardly.

I admit I don't know the ins and outs of the industry and the BCA, but it seems to me the BCA is in the best position to do something. Not that it could be done over-night, I understand that now. But the question is do they have the fortitude to dedicating themselves to raising the first $10M in say the next five years? And do they have the ability even if they did dedicate themselves?

Does the idea of a $10M per year pro tour fix the problem? Am I wrong to say the onus should be on the BCA to come up with that money? If not the BCA then who?
Click to expand...

If the US Open Final was on ESPN you would have seen about 3 full racks and pieces of others because of all the commercials. ALso the commentary would of sucked and you would have to have watched it next year some time and at midnight on a Sunday.

Just the model of having all the commercials makes watching pool on TV not a good option. Most matches take much longer then and hour so there is no way you are going to see what good pool is when it is all broken up to fit in the time frame.

This is the US people have no patience and want things yesterday. You will not get people to sit down for 2 or 3 hours to watch a pool match with commercials after every rack. It just wont happen.
 
^ That's a good point.

Speaking of TV...

It occurred to me last night after watching the last few episodes of the WSOP on ESPN why people watch poker. The drama. Everyone *here* sees the drama in a hill-hill tactical safety match, but the general public does not. To them it is boring. To them when Efren kicks two rails and gets safe it looks like luck. Same with poker, they just want to see the all-ins and see AK vs. AK suckout to a flush for millions.

Switching to golf comparsion...

Why is our game boring to watch ? It's easily because our game is simply harder to win at. Billy Incardona said once when he was commentating the 1p final match at DDC (Efren vs. Miller) after Efren played flawlesss 1p that "Efren is as good at pool as Tiger Woods is at golf". No more truer words were ever spoken about Efren. I believe internationally we have at least 16 guys at the top of the pool echelon that can match up across the top 16 in the PGA. Our game is just as beautiful and dramatic, but no one ever sees it.

There are no safeties in golf. There are no pars in pool.

Therein lies the problem, and a possible solution. Take the safeties out of pool at the big tournaments. Play all offense, two no-count 9ball. You miss, opponent gets ball in hand. Your opponent runs out from there and doesn't win the next game, he gets nothing. Now there would be some drama, and I think TV would love it. TV desperately needs new content and instead of arguing here about a podcast the people who can should be figuring out how to bring the drama of our game to TV.

You get a TV producer behind it and the money/sponsors will come.
 
Pre-Flag Master said:
Well because that someone (the BCA) already has a vested interest in having pro pool succeed. Now I do get the point that the BCA does not have $10,000,000 in their bank account right now (and for the record, I never assumed that they did). How will it ever get there?... It sounds like you are saying it won't ever get there because even the industry members of the BCA won't buy into the idea that a successful pro pool tour would create more demand for their products, because they have no confidence in the future of pro pool in the first place. You are saying it's a catch 22, and that essentially there is no hope for pro pool. Do I understand you right?

Sad to think that the BCA doesn't really believe in "pool". Just in the products their own member companies sell.



I wasn't saying amateur pool is not fine (if that's what you thought I meant). I was saying that if amateur pool grows even more, you have more revenue in the form of sponsorship money. And pool halls start opening again BTW.

Again, though, amateur pool players are paying for their own entertainment, so a self-sustaining model is achievable. Pro players, by definition, are being paid with money that comes from elsewhere.



First thing you said is "you do not need millions of dollars for pro pool to grow." Then close to the end you say, "you must have money." We agree on money being key. What kind of money are you talking about and for exactly what purpose?

My $10M figure was based on the idea that 10 tournaments per year with $1M prize funds per tournament would work. But now I'm saying the BCA needs to - eventually - raise some money to initially kick start it. The fact that the money isn't there doesn't make the idea wrong, impractical for now yes, but wrong?

I'm going to organize what you just said in a different sequence...

1. "there must be some organization..."
-The BCA already exists.​
2. "you must have money..."
-There's the problem, so the BCA needs to hurry up and get started.​
3. "you must have the players buy in with actual skin in the game..."
-With $1M prize funds they would.​
4. "provide a good product..."
-That's what #3 does, plus you need good quality event video production.​
5. "access that fan base through the media available today..."
-Air the events, no problem.​
6. "What you need is to build a dedicated fan base..."
-I disagree, build the product so that the fan base will come. Pool has some degree of public interest, but it needs to be put in front of their faces, like back on ESPN - a lot.​

I think I see your point. The money isn't there. And it does not come from some benevolent, generous benefactor, hence the people who talk about this just go round in circles. I think "we" just don't want to admit that the problem really is fixable, but the fix is out of our reach. And hence we end up kicking puppies. Am I getting it now?

So if I'm getting it now, I say the onus is on the BCA, I say let's put the onus on the BCA, I say the BCA needs to put the onus on themselves. Again, I'm thinking if they don't re-create pro pool, what right do they have to over-see the Hall of Fame?

I paid Accu-stats $7 to watch the final match of the US Open. That's a good deal, I'm satisfied with the product and the value. But I would rather see the US Open final live on ESPN. When that happens, then you will know that pro pool has been reborn. That's a big goal. It would take a lot of money to get there, but not money just being thrown at the problem haphazardly.

I admit I don't know the ins and outs of the industry and the BCA, but it seems to me the BCA is in the best position to do something. Not that it could be done over-night, I understand that now. But the question is do they have the fortitude to dedicating themselves to raising the first $10M in say the next five years? And do they have the ability even if they did dedicate themselves?

Does the idea of a $10M per year pro tour fix the problem? Am I wrong to say the onus should be on the BCA to come up with that money? If not the BCA then who?
Click to expand...

How do you make the BCA do anything? I sure don't know maybe you do.

I have spent the last five years thinking about this stuff and talking to people who have been doing it for thirty. Bottom line its complex and I personally do not think pro pool will ever be mainstream in this country. People get so wrapped around the axle wanting pool to be like golf or poker they dont have any interest in building something small and stable with a chance to grow. It seems to be an all or nothing mentality.

Then add in the fact that the bar to entry for promoters is so low that anyone with $5k-$10K can get everyone spun up and take up dates just fragments everything more. It really is a difficult situation. I have ideas how to change certain things but they all take enough money to get the players to commit to something for longer than a weekend or two.

My opinion is that you build a small self sustaining tour with a small group of marketable players and try to grow it from there. People are much more likely to support something that stands on its own versus something that might be gone tomorrow.
 
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