Ralf Forfeits!???

CarlB

Formerly AfghanBilliards
Silver Member
I agree with most of the people here. Because Corey was asked, He did what was in his own best interest, moving on the the tounament. I think if the TD would have approached Corey, as Jay said, and informed him he was delaying the match for Ralph due to unfortunate circumstance, Corey would have acknowledged and acted like a professional about it, agree or disagree.

Corey is a stand up person and a proven competitor, I think it is fair to say that he wouldn't be "afraid" of any match as a few indicated on here.

Carl
 

justadub

Rattling corners nightly
Silver Member
The question is, "Did Ralf call to notify anyone of his situation?" If not, the forfeit should probably stand. Something so small as a phone call might have changed everything. Ralf could have called someone (a player) who could then notify the TD of the situation and the match could have been halted, allowing him time to get there. Without that information the TD's hands are tied. If it were me, and I know that a player was delayed because of an accident, I would tell his opponent that I'm delaying the match. If I heard nothing from anybody and the player (anyone) was fifteen to twenty minutes late, then the forfeit would stand.

I understand and appreciate that viewpoint, Jay.

The only problem I can see with making that sort of decision is then the burden falls on you to be sure that it actually was an accident. Not an excuse made up by a player that was late.

I'm not remotely suggesting that Ralf would do such a thing. However, what makes anyone think that some other player might not use that as an excuse when they were running late.

That's the only problem I have with opening that can of worms. A precedent will have been set.

Personally, I agree with Lou and the others, the TD should have called it when it became past the time set. No questions, no issues, Corey doesn't have to be the bad guy.

Too bad, really.
 

Thecoats

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I think we should use the PGA Tour for comparison, they don't budge on start times. If a player is late they are done regardless of reason. End of story.

-don
 

Island Drive

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
After reading all the threads, here's how I process the situation.

''The game itself is bigger and more important than any one player.''

If one fiddles with the above statement in any way, it keeps our game backpeddling, like it has for decades.

Ralph is a players player and represents the sport as to how we all would like it to be protrayed to us and too the public.
He didn't call because he realized it was his problem and no one elses and I'm sure he understood the predicament he was in (this alone shows class).
He's in another country and I'm sure all his travels have taught him to be humble and respect other's, and made a choice to not call. Had it been Phil Michelson, I'm sure the traffic officer may have dealt with matters in another manner, but its a pool player to the American public, and we know how much respect they get.
I feel the forfeit is the right thing to do because he knew the rules before hand. It shows class on Ralphs part, Corey should not be involved in the process, it falls on the TD and they got it right. I've seen too many phone calls disrupt an event, it happened to me with Mizerak, he never showed and my match got rescheduled.
 

Craig Fales

Registered bubinga user
Silver Member
It's an interesting situation... Ralph has car accident, is physically fine, but stuck doing police reports, paperwork, etc. Tournament Director asks Deuel if he'd like to play at 3pm to accommodate Ralph's faultless situation. Corey says nope, playing at 12:30. Ralph didn't get there by 12:45, forfeited match.

So... question: Is Corey scared of Ralph and took this opportunity bypass the match? Or is this nothing personal, and just the way of playing in a tournament... a big jelly roll through an entire match?

Do you think Ralph would've moved the match for Corey?

If Corey was playing someone considerably less threatening, do you think he would've moved it?

I would of said to Corey "You're playing at 3 whether you like it or not."

After reading all the threads, here's how I process the situation.

''The game itself is bigger and more important than any one player.''

If one fiddles with the above statement in any way, it keeps our game backpeddling, like it has for decades.

Ralph is a players player and represents the sport as to how we all would like it to be protrayed to us and too the public.
He didn't call because he realized it was his problem and no one elses and I'm sure he understood the predicament he was in (this alone shows class).
He's in another country and I'm sure all his travels have taught him to be humble and respect other's, and made a choice to not call. Had it been Phil Michelson, I'm sure the traffic officer may have dealt with matters in another manner, but its a pool player to the American public, and we know how much respect they get.
I feel the forfeit is the right thing to do because he knew the rules before hand. It shows class on Ralphs part, Corey should not be involved in the process, it falls on the TD and they got it right. I've seen too many phone calls disrupt an event, it happened to me with Mizerak, he never showed and my match got rescheduled.

Upon reading this, if Ralf didn't call then the TD wouldn't have a clue as to what was the holdup. I still feel if it was a situation was out of the persons control I would make an effort to accommodate them if it meant no disruption to the flow of the tourney.
 
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lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The question is, "Did Ralf call to notify anyone of his situation?" If not, the forfeit should probably stand. Something so small as a phone call might have changed everything. Ralf could have called someone (a player) who could then notify the TD of the situation and the match could have been halted, allowing him time to get there. Without that information the TD's hands are tied. If it were me, and I know that a player was delayed because of an accident, I would tell his opponent that I'm delaying the match. If I heard nothing from anybody and the player (anyone) was fifteen to twenty minutes late, then the forfeit would stand.


Jay, there is no phone call that makes it right and fair to the opponent. It's like being a supervisor at work: whatever the company policy is for, lets say emergency leave, are the rules for all your employees, no exceptions. Because the second you make one exception, every single employee thinks that their personal emergency is equally dire and also worthy of exemption: problems with a spouse; day care center had water damage; dead car battery; death of a third cousin; and on and on. The *only* way to be fair is to stick to the rules.

I personally believe that scheduling exceptions to the rules, particularly for higher profile players, is one of the things that is wrong with our sport. Everyone wants to be a good guy with the Ralfs, the Earls, the Johnnys, and the Mika and give them the benefit of the doubt. But that is not fair.

At the player's meeting for the 1pocket we were told that the official clock was the one on the tournament room wall. If you weren't there at your appointed match time, by that clock, you began to forfeit games. If you cared, you set your wrist watch to the time on that clock, and were in place well before your match time, or lived with the consequences.

That's fair.

Lou Figueroa
 
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markpatrick

Cardinals
Silver Member
Rules are rules

:cool::cool:
I wasn't really trying to hang Corey up for this, but it is an interesting question... at least to me. I expected him to postpone just because I had figured it was some sort of professional courtesy... extenuating circumstances, and all.

But yeah - I think if it had been earlier in the tournament, or something less important, he probably would've waited. At least... that's my opinion.

On the other hand, rules are rules... but surely there has to be some sort of exception for events like this?

Besides, Corey knows he loses to Ralf 8 out of 10 sets.

Professional courtesy is to be at your match, not come running in 1 minute before the forfeit or 1 minute after.:cool::cool::cool:

I have had to disqualify people in our local events due to the same issue before, as a tournament director it sucks. The sobbing and excuses?
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
Jay, there is no phone call that makes it right and fair to the opponent. It's like being a supervisor at work: whatever the company policy is for, lets say emergency leave, are the rules for all your employees, no exceptions. Because the second you make one exception, every single employee thinks that their personal emergency is equally dire and also worthy of exemption: problems with a spouse; day care center had water damage; dead car battery; death of a third cousin; and on and on. The *only* way to be fair is to stick to the rules.

I personally believe that scheduling exceptions to the rules, particularly for higher profile players, is one of the things that is wrong with our sport. Everyone wants to be a good guy with the Ralfs, the Earls, the Johnnys, and the Mika and give them the benefit of the doubt. But that is not fair.

At the player's meeting for the 1pocket we were told that the official clock was the one on the tournament room wall. If you weren't there at your appointed match time, by that clock, you began to forfeit games. If you cared, you set your wrist watch to the time on that clock, and were in place well before your match time, or lived with the consequences.

That's fair.

Lou Figueroa

Thank you Lou, but the opinion I offered was not based on it being Ralf. Or anyone else for that matter. There have been instances in the past where we have extended a courtesy to players in the case of a medical emergency, such as a delayed dialysis treatment or on site injury occurring. I'm not saying this is the "right" thing to do, just that there is precedence for it. I have personally never had a problem when I told a player that I was moving his match back, because someone had an emergency that delayed them.

Whether this is the correct thing to do or even the best policy is something that I will rethink in the future, in part thanks to this thread. Perhaps I have erred in this respect and need to re-evaluate how I handle emergencies by players. Thanks again for your opinion and that of the others on here.

The exceptions made for emergency situations have only taken place when it was brought to light beforehand that someone would be delayed for whatever reason. If it was after the fact and a forfeit had been called, then it's too late to reverse that call. Once again, maybe there should be no exceptions for any reason. I will discuss this point with my co-directors at the next event I work.

By the way, there have been medical delays for matches in major tennis tournaments that I'm aware of, so it is not totally without precedent in other major sports. In golf, it is imperative that all rounds finish at a certain time.
 
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Wags

2 pocket-one pocket table
Silver Member
I had that happen to me pre-cell phone era. I'm ready for my match. The grace time goes away. The TD declares a forfeit. I hang around talking with friends.

The TD called me back up about 20 minutes later (opponent is 40 minutes late) to ask if I want to play the match, my opponent got into a fender bender. I replied that I am not ready to play right now but I would be in an hour (needed time for my pre-match routine).

The TD responds that I am playing right now and if I don't like it, I will be forfeited. WOW! (Opponent was from the same town as the TD!?)

I was just seething and promptly gave away 3 games because of it. I wanted to go yell at the TD so bad. It was then I realized that I would only be a perceived and taken as a whiner-loser if I lost and then complained/yelled. I put all my pissy energy into the game and my opponent didn't win another.

I then took the winning scoresheet to the TD desk. I see him leave the area as I'm walking up to the table. I wait....I left...and 2 wins and 4 hours later and I finally blasted him (in private, something about his manhood and sense of fair play).

It wasn't all bad. I learned that losers are complainers and winners give constructive criticism. I learned that there is not "fair" in a pool tournament. I learned that I could play pretty darn good directing my pissiness toward the game. Interesting things to find out.

========

The late rule is a RULE. There should be no fudging, no special circumstances, no reason should be good enough. Next thing you know the TD will change the one foot on the floor rule for Alex, something about table height discrimination.

Corey deserved the forfeit (the rule was broken) and should NEVER have been involved except to be told by the TD that he won his match.

=======

I always wondered why the match time isn't the final time. You certainly don't get a 15 to 20 minute grace at your work. By allowing the grace period, the spectators are actually being deprived and given poor service. Don't make the audience stare at a blank table. By allowing the grace, the players use it to their advantage by walking in at the last second.

If a match is scheduled for 8 pm. The players should be lagging the ball at 8 pm. with play immediately following. It shouldn't be this show up sometime between 8 and 8:15, then go to the bathroom, then hit some balls, then go get a drink and now its 8:30 and I'm ready to play crap.

If I remember right, that's how the IPT did it. One match got forfeited and the players knew that there was no pushing the start time rule. They were all at the match at the start time.

I vote, be there ready to lag at the scheduled start time. If the opponent isn't there, they lose. Simple, easy to understand, direct to the point and very enforceable.
 

justadub

Rattling corners nightly
Silver Member
Thank you Lou, but the opinion I offered was not based on it being Ralf. Or anyone else for that matter. There have been instances in the past where we have extended a courtesy to players in the case of a medical emergency, such as a delayed dialysis treatment or on site injury occurring. I'm not saying this is the "right" thing to do, just that there is precedence for it. I have personally never had a problem when I told a player that I was moving his match back, because someone had an emergency that delayed them.

Whether this is the correct thing to do or even the best policy is something that I will rethink in the future, in part thanks to this thread. Perhaps I have erred in this respect and need to re-evaluate how I handle emergencies by players. Thanks again for your opinion and that of the others on here.

The exceptions made for emergency situations have only taken place when it was brought to light beforehand that someone would be delayed for whatever reason. If it was after the fact and a forfeit had been called, then it's too late to reverse that call. Once again, maybe there should be no exceptions for any reason. I will discuss this point with my co-directors at the next event I work.

By the way, there have been medical delays for matches in major tennis tournaments that I'm aware of, so it is not totally without precedent in other major sports.

The sad part is that you've been handling it "the right way" all this time, with compassion and as much fairness as the situation allows. Unfortunately, given how things and people are these days, that sense of compassion and "right" would be quickly taken advantage of, and would put you in a much more difficult situation as a result.

Which is really too bad.
 

GADawg

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Jay, there is no phone call that makes it right and fair to the opponent. It's like being a supervisor at work: whatever the company policy is for, lets say emergency leave, are the rules for all your employees, no exceptions. Because the second you make one exception, every single employee thinks that their personal emergency is equally dire and also worthy of exemption: problems with a spouse; day care center had water damage; dead car battery; death of a third cousin; and on and on. The *only* way to be fair is to stick to the rules.

I personally believe that scheduling exceptions to the rules, particularly for higher profile players, is one of the things that is wrong with our sport. Everyone wants to be a good guy with the Ralfs, the Earls, the Johnnys, and the Mika and give them the benefit of the doubt. But that is not fair.

At the player's meeting for the 1pocket we were told that the official clock was the one on the tournament room wall. If you weren't there at your appointed match time, by that clock, you began to forfeit games. If you cared, you set your wrist watch to the time on that clock, and were in place well before your match time, or lived with the consequences.

That's fair.

Lou Figueroa

Agree completely
 

duckie

GregH
Silver Member
I'm a big fan of rules in sports. Rules are rules. If the current rules do not allow for delaying a game for certain, valid reasons, then change the rules, they aren't in stone.

Plus, in the players meeting for that tourney, there is nothing stopping the players for asking about having delays for that tourney only.

Geez players, speak up. You don't like the rules/conditions make waves to change them. Racers do that all the time if they don't like track conditions. It was motorcycle racers that had the most impact on the changes made at Sears Point/Infineons track layout. Of course, they screwed up a really nice flowing track, buts its safer,anyway.....

But, I never saw a delay in a motorsports based on one of the contestants was going to be late.

So, there.

While racing motorcycles, there was sorta a order of when my class would be racing, but due to a variety of things there was never my class races starts at x time. So, I just stayed there in order to stay abreast of what was happening.

I'm surprised that some pro players don't do this.
 

Maniac

2manyQ's
Silver Member
I personally believe that scheduling exceptions to the rules, particularly for higher profile players, is one of the things that is wrong with our sport. Everyone wants to be a good guy with the Ralfs, the Earls, the Johnnys, and the Mika and give them the benefit of the doubt. But that is not fair.

Agreed. If it would have been Joseph Blow from Omaha, Nebraska that was late due to an automobile accident (and was forfeited), would we have even seen a thread started over it? Not likely.

Seems when the rules change, it's always for a "higher profile player". I've seen too many instances where the lower profile players get jacked-around when they are pitted against the "name" players, even some in this thread.

Nobody should get a pass on the rules. And....anybody with any class/consideration shouldn't expect to get a pass regardless of the situation.

Maniac
 

Island Drive

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I would of said to Corey "You're playing at 3 whether you like it or not."



Upon reading this, if Ralf didn't call then the TD wouldn't have a clue as to what was the holdup. I still feel if it was a situation was out of the persons control I would make an effort to accommodate them if it meant no disruption to the flow of the tourney.

This sets a bad tone, mumbling, special treatement type of attitudes permeate the field of players. Ralph does not agree with this behavior, his actions by not calling speak loudly. If he did call, he would then be looked at by his peers in a different light, he won't go there, his game and impeccable character speaks loudly to me and the game itself, he respect that.
Promoters who hold a venue know very well the risks in life, and to accomodate one ahead of the sport, THEN your have to accomodate them all. If a player in the PGA didn't show up for their Tee time at the Masters, do you think the whole field should wait?
The pro pool world wants' respect, the pay, the credibility of the PGA, when, & where are we going to start, this is good line in the sand to me.
Mark Griffin, you got it right, your TD went by the rules, I commend you for that. The only person that lost out is Ralph, I'm sure he's aware of it and he'll never put himself in that situation again.
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
IF this is the way it spun out, the tournament director should have never thrown it to Corey to make the call in the first place, because A: it shouldn't be Corey's call -- it's the TD's call and; B: exactly because it puts Corey in a bad spot.

The TD should have the cojones to make this call without consulting the opponent. The rules is the rules and we need more solid enforcement, not player coddling.

Lou Figueroa

This is what i would have said. The TD should have moved the match due to extenuating circumstances.

I think things like hospitalization, car wrecks etc... are legitimate reasons to get a little leeway.

I hope that Ralf is still in and he snaps this event off.

I also believe that Ralf should have been allowed to play if he showed up at 12:45 but that he should have been docked one game for every five minutes of being late. So he would have had to spot Corey 3 games on the wire. What's wrong with that since all these matches are set with a two hour block of time to get them done? Every five minutes you lose a game and if you show up 45 minutes late then you lost the race to nine. Why can't they do it that way?
 
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