Red circle vs measles comparison

senor said:
Joe, I think a lot of people who play pool for a living prefer the measles, or formerly the red triangle, because it comes with the set of Super Aramiths. Likewise, they prefer the blue circle when playing with the Centennial balls.

Red circles, on the other hand, do not have one manufacturer. Apparently, one red circle does not have to be the same as the next.

All that being said, I usually always played with a red circle.
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My sentiments exactly.... Red circles vary in size, weight, and texture because, like you said, they are made by several manufacturers. The red Triangles that used to come with Aramith Pro's (prior to the measle ball) were good cue balls and they weighed the same as Centennial Blue Circles.

We had this conversation way back on RSB and I dug this up. I weighed red circles against blue circles. Like I said, Blue Circles weigh the same as Red Triangles (and I am assuming the measles ball weighs the same as a Red Triangle....).

"Recently we weighed three red circles and three blue circles.
All 3 red's weighed 155 grams/ball
All 3 blue's weighed 170 grams/ball
As I've insisted for a long time the blue weighs more than the red."

Check out the thread at http://groups.google.com/group/rec.sport.billiard/browse_thread/thread/f833f2bd7a82bc23/b178f3f9a4803ad1?hl=en&q=red+circle+blue+cue+ball+grams+group:rec.sport.billiard

Tom Simpson, the instructor, was the creator of Elephant Balls and some aim training balls. He probably knows as much as anyone in the country about pool balls and he weighs in with a couple of good posts where he contacted two manufacturers for the straight answer.
 
A couple of things:

1) If you didn't see the box or packet the cue ball came out of you cannot make a definate comparison, as you don't know who made it. As far as I know no one currently copies the "Measles" ball but I am certain there are thousands of red dot/circle/triangle balls in circulation from unknown manufacturers that are not valid for comparisons.

2) This aside, we are all talking about products made by the same company at the end of the day, Saluc. (Owner of the Aramith brand and manufacturer under license of the Centennail balls for Brunswick for quite a while.) The big problem is that they appear to be happy chopping and changing the formulation and/or manufacturing techniques they use behind the scenes. They have very clearly changed how they make the Pro Cup (Measle's) cue ball, because I have a ball from the early production run that was sold separately in retail packaging (Through Mueller's) that is a totally different shade of white than ones from the Super-Pro set they sold it with after that. Both balls are a little different again from the Aramith Logo ball that came with the Super Pros before they put in the Measles ball. Remember when the Pro Cup got withdrawn from the market and no-one could get them for months? Something odd happened there that I've never seen adequately explained.

3) I also believe they have changed their regular ball formulations over time. I have a nearly-10 year old Red-circle (Individual retail packaged version) that still holds it's finish better than the blue circle that came with a set of Centennials a few years ago, and about a million times better than any of the several Pro Cup balls I played with on a regular basis. (You just have to look at them funny to mark them up.) It also looks better than newer Aramith logo balls and current red circles. Is this ball just a fluke, or did they make them differently 10 years ago?

The best answer to all these questions has to come from Saluc, and every time I read something supposedly directly from them it never seems to be consistent. Additionally they seem to be utterly indifferent to the desire for real information about tolerances. People on chat boards getting together to measure roundness and weight is great, but if the manufacturer change their products every few years without telling anyone, or if their manufacturing process has such apparent variability in it then those test are irrelevant. What applies one month to one sampling of balls might be different the next month.

However I did really appreciate the old RSB link and Grady's comment about dropping balls on a concrete floor to measure the bounce. Has anyone actually tried to measure this accurately across a good sampling of balls?
 
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AuntyDan said:
As far as I know no one currently copies the "Measles" ball but I am certain there are thousands of red dot/circle/triangle balls in circulation from unknown manufacturers that are not valid for comparisons.
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just a tid bit of info for ya... There are imitation measle cue balls out there. I have one! The imitation measles and the real measles look and play different from each other.
 
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ykndoit said:
just a tid bit of info for ya... There are imitation measle cue balls out there. I have one! The imitation measles and the real measles look and play different from each other.
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If you could post a picture of them lets see the differents if there is from the color shades .
 
While the weights of various popular cue balls (measles, aramith red logo, red circle, blue circle, etc.) may vary by several grams, the biggest difference, imo, in how they play is determined by their Coefficient of Restitution... which is an engineering term to describe how efficiently an object rebounds after impact or collision with another body.

read more here if interested in CoR

So, pool is ALL about collisions, right?.. of the cue tip with the CB, of the CB with the OB, of the OB with other balls, and of the balls with the cushions.

I have a new set of Super Aramith Pro balls that came with the red logo cue ball, and I also have a new measles CB, and I also have a new red circle CB, and I even have a relatively new black circle CB.

Let's talk about weights first... the measles CB weighs 6 grams lighter than both the red logo and the red circle circle. The black circle weighs the same as the measles. My red logo and my red circle weigh the same as the other balls in my Super Aramith Pro set. The balls in the set are all within 1 gram of each other. For those that don't know, 6 grams is less than 1/4 oz... actually 0.21 oz... not a lot of weight.

But what was immediately noticeable to me was how differently the Measles ball played by comparison to my other cue balls... and it's weight was not the answer... which led me to comparing their CoRs... which I did in a home test.

My home test is to simultaneously drop two cue balls from shoulder height onto my garage floor, which is concrete and is smooth.

The measles cue ball REPEATEDLY did not bounce near as high (6 - 8") as my other three CBs (the red logo, the red circle and the black circle)... leading me to believe that the phenolic resins in the Measles CB are decidedly different than those in the other three CBs... and hence the difference in how they play.

Try the test yourself.

Later, cd.
 
i have 2 measles balls, 1 logo ball, and numerous circle balls. i weighed one of each 1 time and the measle and the logo were slightly heavier than the circle ball. i play fine with all 3 but i prefer the circle on slower tables. i never use the logo ball.
 
cigardave said:
I have a new set of Super Aramith Pro balls that came with the red logo cue ball, and I also have a new measles CB, and I also have a new red circle CB, and I even have a relatively new black circle CB.

Let's talk about weights first... the measles CB weighs 6 grams lighter than both the red logo and the red circle circle. The black circle weighs the same as the measles. My red logo and my red circle weigh the same as the other balls in my Super Aramith Pro set. The balls in the set are all within 1 gram of each other. For those that don't know, 6 grams is less than 1/4 oz... actually 0.21 oz... not a lot of weight.

But what was immediately noticeable to me was how differently the Measles ball played by comparison to my other cue balls... and it's weight was not the answer... which led me to comparing their CoRs... which I did in a home test.

My home test is to simultaneously drop two cue balls from shoulder height onto my garage floor, which is concrete and is smooth.

The measles cue ball REPEATEDLY did not bounce near as high (6 - 8") as my other three CBs (the red logo, the red circle and the black circle)... leading me to believe that the phenolic resins in the Measles CB are decidedly different than those in the other three CBs... and hence the difference in how they play.

Try the test yourself.

Later, cd.
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This makes the most sense with what I was thinking.

I play in a couple regular weekly unhandicapped tournies at two different places. One place with about 15 tables has Aramith balls a with red circle and measle ball mix, the other with about 40 tables has Centennials with red circles, blue circles, red triangles, black circles, no circles.

Part of doing well in these tournies is recognizing the differences and adjusting quickly. I have no idea why anyone would say there aren't any noticable or significant differences. Perhaps they unconciously adjust? I don't know.

Back to the OP though, it has been my experience that measle balls tend to have a rubbery finish and have more of a "thud" sound on impact where any other cue ball will have more of a "click". They tend to have a bit more throw in them and don't seem to slide as easily across the cloth. New measle balls also tend to be slightly larger than the average Aramith object balls but closer to the same size as the average centennials.

My two cents. :D
 
Mr. Rogan - Measle Smeasle. What the pool world wants to know is when are you going to be hanging out at the TAR BAR?
 
I have run across two types of measle balls.....the ivory colored and the white....I am more familiar with the white one, but the ivory 'seems' to play a little sluggish.
 
rackem said:
I have been told that the red circle is made from Carom ball resin.
The measel with pool ball resin.
When we measured 2 new ones the measel was .0010 bigger.
I perfer the red circle because it does not mark up as much.
It therefore plays more consistant througout it's life.
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The answer may lay here. They definitely do not play the same. I think most pros will say the Measles Ball goes thru the balls better. It seems to deliver a little more impact on contact for whatever reason. I think it is the more consistent cue ball for playing position, with a better roll to it. The Red Circle ball plays lighter and is bouncier. A little harder to control imo.

There are some things that are simply not measurable. Actually the computers in our brains and sensory systems can decipher finite differences that would not register on a computer. The computer we were born with is still the best one out there. :wink:
 
Now that your thinking impacts or hits to a ball as to which ball you like better. Now shoot object balls into the rail with no cue ball and shoot the cue balls into the rail and see which react like an object ball. Most cue balls dont react the same object balls. So for some shoots you'll like one cue ball and on a nother shoot you'll like a different cue ball. each cue ball is built different from the inside out and quality of micron finish. all the object balls are built closer to a blue circle cue ball that probably plays the closet to an object ball.

If you got stroke you will like the measle and blue circle balls.

no stoke you like the red dot cue ball because it's lively. less work more action.

Craig
 
n10spool said:
If you got stroke you will like the measle and blue circle balls.

no stoke you like the red dot cue ball because it's lively. less work more action.

Craig
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Or... conversely, you could say that the measles CB plays dead.

I just re-ran my home drop test... this time dropping two balls simultaneously from above my head in order to magnify the difference in each ball's CoR... and here's the results.

The Aramith red logo, the red circle and an object ball from my Super Aramith set all rebounded to the same height.... meaning they have the same CoR... roughly ~0.7.


The black circle rebounded slighty less (~2-3"), which can be explained by it's weight difference of -5 grams relative to the red logo (less potential energy before it is released).

But here's the zinger... the measles CB rebounded ~20" to 2 feet less than the rest of the comparison balls... hence, the reason for my comment above that the measles ball plays dead... which on my table is a blessing because of the liveliness of the cushions and the speed of the cloth (9' Diamond Pro Am w/860 Simonis). I'm guessing that my measles CB has a CoR of ~0.5 or slightly higher but nowhere near the comparison balls.

I've mostly been playing with my red circle and my red logo but I will now play more with my measles ball... because it will be slighly easier to control. :thumbup2:
 
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Cuebuddy said:
Joe the condition of the ball means allot. A dirty ball plays so much different then one that is new or clean. You could have to measle Cb's of different conditions and they would seem like night and day. I have used and worn out about every kind of ball there is and I can't tell much difference as long as there all on a level playing field (so to speak.)
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You make an excellent point. I have a ball cleaner and after I clean the balls they play much differently. I don't let them get that dirty between cleanings and you can do things with the cue ball so much easier after it's been cleaned of chalk, hand oil, dirt, etc. I have the measles cue ball, the red circle, the blue circle and my favorite is the measle cue ball. It may not play better than the red circle cue ball, but it's more fun to watch the spin when using english. I rarely play with the blue circle cue ball.

James
 
This is something that Dan Wallace had posted a couple years ago with his experience with the Measle after playing the US Open, written quite well. I thought it was apt for your question. If you don't know Dan, he is a very well respected player that plays high caliber pool here in the Southern California area.

I'm writing for the first time on this site due to something that I have quite a problem with: the entire set of Super Pro television balls, including the infamous "measle ball". All of the balls in the set are the same size and weight as the measle ball. The problem is that they are all oversized.
I've played with the standard Super Pro set many times over the years and have never had any complaints; they play practically identical to Centennials. But the new television balls (in which the 4 and the 7 are different colors than usual) are decidedly odd. In fact, they are the only set of balls Aramith makes that play the way they do.
My main complaint is with the response of the cue ball. Being oversize it plays just like you'd expect: with less finesse. Here at the Open I've witnessed some of the worst safety play I've ever seen from players of this caliber, and the overall quality of pool has suffered as a result. The measle ball plows through angles, runs a couple of diamonds long, and is tediously slow to respond to the applied english, all of which is amplified by the slick, new cloth.
The easiest way to understand the difference, and therefore start to realize the extent of the problem, is to begin thinking of the measle ball as a mild version of a bar-box big-ball. It exhibits all the same characteristics to a lesser degree. This forces players to debase their games to a "just get open and try to make all the balls" mentality. I doubt if anyone would disagree that the most enjoyable aspect of watching high level pool is the amount of inventiveness and touch on display. Well, I've seen very little of that this week.
Another problem arises in that an oversize ball causes the table to play inappropriately. The Diamond table, a wonderful product, was designed and tested with the red circle cue ball. At the Open many players are claiming that the tables are playing too tough. They're wrong; the equipment is beautiful. If Centennials with either the blue circle or red circle ball were being used, you wouldn't hear any complaints at all.
Also, everyone's cue sounds awful on contact. A couple of players have told me that they are actually changing tips every tournament depending on the set of balls used to help compensate. One even told me he's switching shaft tapers from event to event! It especially makes it much harder for those of us who attend only a few events a year (meaning the majority of the field) to compete with the touring pros who get more of chance to adjust. Yes, I bought a set to attempt to get used to it, but no one in my home room wants to play me using the television balls due to the difference in play.
What strikes me as most ridiculous about the whole thing is that no one had any concerns about the playability of Centennials with the red circle cue ball. I understand the addition of spots on the cue and the change of some colors: it's useful for television. But why did Aramith produce a set that plays differently than what everyone approved of? It's sad that the players themselves can't get together to approve or disapprove the very equipment on which their incomes and their passions are dependent.

The owner of Diamond Billiards, Greg Sullivan, says that Aramith changed the phenolic in order to gain tighter tolerances. He says that the new phenolic has less "elasticity" than previously, causing the balls to depart from each other with less snap, i.e. sluggish.
Regardless of the cause, the playing characteristics of the new set do remove some finesse from the game. A good example of this is the final four at the Open: Parica, Strickland, Pagulayan, and Bustamante. All of them have strong, well rounded games, no doubt. But they are all also know as being among the most accurate shotmakers on tour, which will help to overcome less precise cue ball control. I don't think I'm going out on a limb to predict that over the course of the next year or so players who are known for winning largely through touch and percentage play won't be winning as many tournaments in the events where the television balls are used.
 
girlwon1 said:
The owner of Diamond Billiards, Greg Sullivan, says that Aramith changed the phenolic in order to gain tighter tolerances. He says that the new phenolic has less "elasticity" than previously, causing the balls to depart from each other with less snap, i.e. sluggish.
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These comments from Greg support my claim that the principal difference in the play of the measles ball is it's lower CoR by comparison to the rest of the balls within a set.

And this raises the question in my mind as to whether or not the BCA rules for equipment should not specify the range of acceptable CoRs for pool balls, including the CB... as they do for diameter and weight.

They should, imo... because it would force Sulac (and other ball manufacturers) to control a parameter that is currently not being controlled in their design and manufacturing processes, yet that parameter can significantly affect play. ;)
 
Now I've got the Super Aramith Pro TV balls for my home table and compaired to alot of places I've played in this last year I would perfer the Aramith balls over any , now i've never had any problems with them being sluggish or anything .
 
sfleinen said:
RenoRex:

That's easy to fix -- just install one of these on your cue to "redirect your eyes":

http://eyeshafts.com/

Your attention on the "business" of the measles cue ball will be redirected. Voila(!) -- problem solved. ;) :D

-Sean
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Thanks .... That B.E. Shaft would look great on AAA Grade B.E. Cue, but I prefer the really Curly Maple Shafts or, better yet, totally clear maple.

Still not keen on the Measle Ball, but have to play with them at
some of the Tournaments I enter.

I'll survive, none-the-less.
 
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