Red Shoes Qualifier

[3andstop]

You are welcome (including you "3andstop") to come in and show how it is supposed to be done. Just to be on the safe side though, I'm going to ask Mr. Fels to sit at the bar just so I know there is an experienced "Pilot" in the room... JUST IN CASE

What the hell does that mean? Show how it's supposed to be done? It's so convenient to mix up my words about what Fels said with all the other non related things that went into a very nicely done stream.

BTW, how it's done is to not insult people. But I didn't learn that when I started playing pool 50 yrs ago. I learned it from my parents before I was 4 yrs old.

But masking my specific thoughts and comments on Fels specific comments by saying it was a wonderful tournament, thanks to everyone, blah blah blah ... is no more than a smoke and mirror attempt to avoid SPECIFICALLY what I was addressing.

Yes it was a wonderful tournament. Yes everyone who participated did a hell of a job, yes all who donated their time went above and beyond the call, (including Mr. Fels) yes, yes, yes, and yes.

But guess what, regardless, none of all that has a thing to do with what I commented on. That being Mr. Fels insulting words regarding pool players in general, of which I am one, and in addition, pointing out specific players both dead and alive to insult.

There are opinions, there are ways to express opinions, and then there are insults that cross that line. Perhaps he crossed that line in an attempt to be colorful in his own unique and redundant way, but he crossed it non the less.

It seems that Mr. Fels is immune to accountability regarding the specific things he said and that I quoted in a previous post by some, because they are beholding to him for his hours of donated time.

Understandably so ... But, I'm not one of them.

Not taking him to task on those statements is one thing, and I totally understand you don't bite the hand that feeds you. You should be grateful I did it for you. Perhaps in the future he will guard his words and express his opinions in a less insulting manner without spewing comments that are hurtful in an attempt to be colorful.

On the other hand, condoning and defending what he said is something else again IMO.

I said what I said in response specifically to his insulting comments, period.

 

[dmgwalsh]

What the hell does that mean? Show how it's supposed to be done? It's so convenient to mix up my words about what Fels said with all the other non related things that went into a very nicely done stream.

BTW, how it's done is to not insult people. But I didn't learn that when I started playing pool 50 yrs ago. I learned it from my parents before I was 4 yrs old.

But masking my specific thoughts and comments on Fels specific comments by saying it was a wonderful tournament, thanks to everyone, blah blah blah ... is no more than a smoke and mirror attempt to avoid SPECIFICALLY what I was addressing.

Yes it was a wonderful tournament. Yes everyone who participated did a hell of a job, yes all who donated their time went above and beyond the call, (including Mr. Fels) yes, yes, yes, and yes.

But guess what, regardless, none of all that has a thing to do with what I commented on. That being Mr. Fels insulting words regarding pool players in general, of which I am one, and in addition, pointing out specific players both dead and alive to insult.

There are opinions, there are ways to express opinions, and then there are insults that cross that line. Perhaps he crossed that line in an attempt to be colorful in his own unique and redundant way, but he crossed it non the less.

It seems that Mr. Fels is immune to accountability regarding the specific things he said and that I quoted in a previous post by some, because they are beholding to him for his hours of donated time.

Understandably so ... But, I'm not one of them.

Not taking him to task on those statements is one thing, and I totally understand you don't bite the hand that feeds you. You should be grateful I did it for you. Perhaps in the future he will guard his words and express his opinions in a less insulting manner without spewing comments that are hurtful in an attempt to be colorful.

On the other hand, condoning and defending what he said is something else again IMO.

I said what I said in response specifically to his insulting comments, period.

As I said earlier, Maybe your criticism should have been in the non pool related area because you certainly hijacked a thread about a good 14.1 event. Instead of people talking about how nicely straight pool seems to be developing and all the new people that want to learn it, we get to hear about what you think about George's commentary.

As Marop mentioned to me a moment ago, "That's three so maybe you should stop."

 

[BayGene]

Hear, hear, Dennis. It's the game, folks. You were watching 14.1 live from the comfort of your home and you're complaining about a few remarks of the commentator who elucidated the game for you for fourteen hours. Let's get the thread back to the Championship Game.

 

[3andstop]

As Marop mentioned to me a moment ago, "That's three so maybe you should stop."

Hey Dennis, I did stop. Amazing how selectively only my post was noticed.

My last post was a reply to a post that addressed me personally. Maybe you should scroll up. Oh, you shouldn't have to, I quoted it.

I said what had to be said about someone who insulted pool players. That's me too btw.

I'm not going on about anything here, merely replying.

 

[dmgwalsh]

Hey Dennis, I did stop. Amazing how selectively only my post was noticed.

My last post was a reply to a post that addressed me personally. Maybe you should scroll up. Oh, you shouldn't have to, I quoted it.

I said what had to be said about someone who insulted pool players. That's me too btw.

I'm not going on about anything here, merely replying.

Yours is the only one that is going on and on about George. I guess we might as well let this thread die. If someone wants to talk about any of the play in the tournament, they should probably just start a new thread. Good Work.

 

[3andstop]

I guess we might as well let this thread die. If someone wants to talk about any of the play in the tournament, they should probably just start a new thread. Good Work.

Oh, sure, fair enough, but, the next time someone infers that I’m either impoverished, lazy, or unable to communicate using the correct grammar, that I'm dreary, or have to be talked down to because I'm not as intelligent as they are, I can’t guarantee I won’t call them out again. And do so in the very same thread that was specific to where it was said and who said it.

 

[lfigueroa]

Oh, sure, fair enough, but, the next time someone infers that I’m either impoverished, lazy, or unable to communicate using the correct grammar, that I'm dreary, or have to be talked down to because I'm not as intelligent as they are, I can’t guarantee I won’t call them out again. And do so in the very same thread that was specific to where it was said and who said it.

lol, OK, I lied. I'm going to go again.

Maybe I missed it, but I don't recall George inferring anything about someone called 3andstop...

Look, George spoke the truth. If that bothers you you need a reality check:

Pool players are generally poor. (Try four to a room at the DCC.)

Pool players don't go to Harvard (GED anyone... anyone... Bulher... Buhler...)

Steve Mizerak was an amazing player but not a scintillating personality.

The most famous pool players everybody knows nowadays are Fats and JL.

Fats was a Flim Flam Man.

Jim Rempe and Danny DeLiberto, while knowledge, entertaining, and fluent in the use of pool room argot, could use some remedial English lessons -- listen to their tapes.

So get a clue. Buy a vowel. Have a nice day

Lou Figueroa
reality is a bee-atch

 

[3andstop]

Look, George spoke the truth.

No he didn't. :nanner:

 

[lfigueroa]

No he didn't. :nanner:

What was inaccurate?

Lou Figueroa

 

[Rich93]

Oh, sure, fair enough, but, the next time someone infers that I’m either impoverished, lazy, or unable to communicate using the correct grammar, that I'm dreary, or have to be talked down to because I'm not as intelligent as they are, I can’t guarantee I won’t call them out again. And do so in the very same thread that was specific to where it was said and who said it.

Wow, you take things personally, 3andstop. George was talking in a general sense about professional pool players - a very select group - not everybody who enjoys the game. I assume you are in the latter category, as am I. As is George himself. It would never even occur to me to be personally offended by what he said.

Had George taken the occasion to comment on the professional group that I formerly belonged to and said that actuaries are uninteresting, boring, narrow people whose sentences always end with "and then I calculated the expected mortality", still I would not be offended. I'd probably just think that although his remark might have some truth in it, my exciting self is just the exception to the rule. If any pro players heard what George said about them, that's probably what they thought too. Almost certainly.

 

[Red Shoes]

I was not trying to start a fight with "3andstop". This is what was meant by my "show how it is done" comment. We asked George to do "color commentary" for a 14.1 tournament being held at my room. After reviewing some of the matches I was very pleased with the quality of the video and commentary. The video speaks for itself. The commentary (mostly guided by Fels through one VERY long day) was equal to or better than other recorded matches I have seen over the years. IMHO there is more to "commentary" than "he should of hit it with low left or high right", the commentator's personal "observations" on the game, players, personalities and history are what make the broadcast interesting. George Fels certainly has a wealth of experience as it relates to "pool". While you may not agree with him on specific "pattern play" or of the "shortcomings" of the luminaries of pool, it was interesting for me, as a "pool player" to hear his insights and opinions. As for his disparaging comments on other players or pool in general, all I can say is "hey we ain't members of the Royal Family". We picked this endeavor (pool) for whatever reason. I don't think it was to be thought of well in anything but "pool circles". Now we may enjoy the "lifestyle" or "rascals" in the sport but you must admit if your daughter came home and said "Dad, I'm in love with a pool player". Your response might be something along the lines of "Honey, couldn't you find a nice serial killer to take up with"? George Fels observations are valid for George Fels (any many, although not ALL of us). So my invitation to you to "show how it is done" was not an insult. I just think that if you were sitting in the "booth", after the "shoulda hit it high right" comment you might find yourself relating a story of a match or player that did not end with "happily ever after" or "he sure is a great guy and donated all his winnings to charity". Then again you might, your experience with the game and people might be different than mine. Anyhow in a non threatening way, the offer stands. You are welcome at Red Shoes Billiards to do "color commentary" for a live streamed match. Yes, I will "feed" you (great burgers) and buy your drinks (even imported beer).

 

[Blackjack]

I haven't watched all of the matches, but from what I saw, there was a lot of work put into making this a great event. I enjoyed listening to George's commentary, and to the stories from George and The Beard.

It's not easy to do 14.1 commentary. I've done commentary on taped matches - that is easy, It's a completely different set of skills required to do commentary live on a stream - without notes. Having done live commentary on several occasions, I know that sometimes it is easy to say things that may be taken out of context - things that may offend people - it happens. Overall, I think George did an excellent job... and everybody involved in this event should be proud of a job well done. You guys represented the game of straight pool with class and professionalism - the game can only grow stronger when the effort put forth is that damn good.

 

[lfigueroa]

I was not trying to start a fight with "3andstop". This is what was meant by my "show how it is done" comment. We asked George to do "color commentary" for a 14.1 tournament being held at my room. After reviewing some of the matches I was very pleased with the quality of the video and commentary. The video speaks for itself. The commentary (mostly guided by Fels through one VERY long day) was equal to or better than other recorded matches I have seen over the years. IMHO there is more to "commentary" than "he should of hit it with low left or high right", the commentator's personal "observations" on the game, players, personalities and history are what make the broadcast interesting. George Fels certainly has a wealth of experience as it relates to "pool". While you may not agree with him on specific "pattern play" or of the "shortcomings" of the luminaries of pool, it was interesting for me, as a "pool player" to hear his insights and opinions. As for his disparaging comments on other players or pool in general, all I can say is "hey we ain't members of the Royal Family". We picked this endeavor (pool) for whatever reason. I don't think it was to be thought of well in anything but "pool circles". Now we may enjoy the "lifestyle" or "rascals" in the sport but you must admit if your daughter came home and said "Dad, I'm in love with a pool player". Your response might be something along the lines of "Honey, couldn't you find a nice serial killer to take up with"? George Fels observations are valid for George Fels (any many, although not ALL of us). So my invitation to you to "show how it is done" was not an insult. I just think that if you were sitting in the "booth", after the "shoulda hit it high right" comment you might find yourself relating a story of a match or player that did not end with "happily ever after" or "he sure is a great guy and donated all his winnings to charity". Then again you might, your experience with the game and people might be different than mine. Anyhow in a non threatening way, the offer stands. You are welcome at Red Shoes Billiards to do "color commentary" for a live streamed match. Yes, I will "feed" you (great burgers) and buy your drinks (even imported beer).

Well said, Monsignor

Lou Figueroa

 

[stevekur1]

I haven't watched all of the matches, but from what I saw, there was a lot of work put into making this a great event. I enjoyed listening to George's commentary, and to the stories from George and The Beard.

It's not easy to do 14.1 commentary. I've done commentary on taped matches - that is easy, It's a completely different set of skills required to do commentary live on a stream - without notes. Having done live commentary on several occasions, I know that sometimes it is easy to say things that may be taken out of context - things that may offend people - it happens. Overall, I think George did an excellent job... and everybody involved in this event should be proud of a job well done. You guys represented the game of straight pool with class and professionalism - the game can only grow stronger when the effort put forth is that damn good.

Hey Dave,

The worlds are coming up, why dont you give Pat a call. you would probably be hands down the best commentator they ever had, and as we all know you know the game to a T

-Steve

 

[Vahmurka]

May I just repeat my question from post #19:

Now when I'm going to watch some of the archived matches I would like to ask if there are certain games you would recommend due to level of play (any kind of, great defensive would be even better than high run) and/or commentary. Latimer vs Mohl is one already mentioned.

 

[dmgwalsh]

May I just repeat my question from post #19:

Now when I'm going to watch some of the archived matches I would like to ask if there are certain games you would recommend due to level of play (any kind of, great defensive would be even better than high run) and/or commentary. Latimer vs Mohl is one already mentioned.

Mike: I have not watched all of them. I am doing them one by one. I know the Michalec Cozzolino featured back to back 30 ball runs by Rick. They were tied around 20 and then Ricky was up by 60.

I am watching the Mohl Latimer now. I watched the Cozzolino and Figueroa earlier and both fellows missed some easy shots.

Not sure which feature good safeties. There are a few fair ones in the Latimer Mohl match. One would think the Karabotsos Mohl should have some good play.

 

[Marop]

l

Pool players don't go to Harvard (GED anyone... anyone... Bulher... Buhler...)

Now that's funny!

 

[G&M]

It sounds like the Red Shoes Qualifier was a great event. It takes so much effort and financial investment from a room owner/operator to run a tournament, and I hope that this tournament pays big dividends for the folks at Red Shoes. I have family in the Chicago area, and the next time I'm out there, I'll be sure to check out Red Shoes.

On the subject of George Fels, I have to admit that I'm biased. Mastering Pool is one of the reasons I got interested in pool in the first place. My friends and I all read it because it contained so much great info at a time when there was so little out there. Mosconi's books were too simply and contained mistakes. (If you followed what it said about banks, you'd bank long every time.) As good as 99 Critical Shots was, it did not take you through how to play the major pool games the way Mastering Pool did.

Many years ago, back when Billiards Digest had a "Mailbag," where you wrote letters to the Editor, I wrote a fan letter saying how much I loved Mr. Fels' writing. I said that I particularly enjoyed anything that he wrote, and that remains true today.

It seems clear from reading this thread that Mr. Fels meant no disrespect to Mr. DiLiberto and others. Do you remember when Danny DiLiberto was falsely accused of a crime? (I think it was in connection with Dennis Hatch and Hatch's father.) While other people were knocking Danny, George wrote in his column that he knew Dan and that there was no chance that the charges were true and no chance that they would stick. Of course, we know now that Mr. Fels was right, but he stuck his neck out and wrote what he wrote in a national magazine back when the charges were first brought and people were running the other way. So it seems clear that Mr. Fels has a lot of respect for Mr. DiLiberto.

I don't know whether most commentators or others in the pool world have tend to have less education than other people. I know that Nick Varner graduated from Perdue and won the ACU-I intercollegiate championship before turning pro. Where I disagree with Mr. Fels is that I enjoy all of the different ways the different commentators talk, and it doesn't bother me a bit if the grammar is off. We in the pool world have our own way of talking and it doesn't always line up with what Strunk & White says about grammar. (We might say "he hit it too good" or "she hit it too good." But it doesn't seem right to say "she hit it too well.") That's part of what separates us from everyone else.

On the other side of things, through my work, I've met lots of people who went to the most well-known colleges in the world but they're still nits. They're educated, but they can't think on their feet, and they can barely survive except for that narrow, little thing they do for their job. They wouldn't last five minutes in a ring game, or if they had to make games every day in order to survive. So, saying someone is not well educated is not a knock, it's just a fact.

George Fels has proven by all he's done and said that he knows that all the great players are smart. Some of the top players may be educated and some may not, and some may be great people or they may be jerks, but they're all intelligent. This game takes a lot of thinking, and George Fels, of all people, knows that as much as (or more than) the rest of us.

3andstop is obviously passionate about pool, had something to say, and had the guts to say it even though he must've known that it was not going to be popular with everybody.

I don't happen to agree with him, but I don't agree with everything Mr. Fels says either. That's what makes azbilliards and the 14.1 forum interesting.

Larry Moy

 

[Rich93]

...............

On the other side of things, through my work, I've met lots of people who went to the most well-known colleges in the world but they're still nits. They're educated, but they can't think on their feet, and they can barely survive except for that narrow, little thing they do for their job. They wouldn't last five minutes in a ring game, or if they had to make games every day in order to survive. So, saying someone is not well educated is not a knock, it's just a fact.

.........................

Larry Moy

Why'd you have to bring me into the conversation?

Seriously, very nice post about George. You also wrote a very good straight pool book with Babe Cranfield.

 

[3andstop]

3andstop is obviously passionate about pool, had something to say, and had the guts to say it even though he must've known that it was not going to be popular with everybody.
Larry Moy

I wasn't going to comment any more on this thread but since it's going on anyway I'll say one thing more.

You're right about that Larry. I was pretty confident that my statement would be received as an attack on someone the masses felt was beyond reproach regardless of what he said.

Words don't lie. Their definitions are available and their use in context was clear. The only thing unclear and no more than pure speculation is that everyone was so sure he meant nothing by those words. I heard them clear as a bell.

He said more than one insulting thing, he voiced multiple insulting statements.

Food for thought ... as an example ... sit back a moment and consider this ....

There is currently a thread in the main forum asking who everyone thought the best commentator was. One person said they thought Jim Rempe was the best.

Now very honestly, think about and consider this... Pretend I never posted anything at all in this thread. In fact, pretend the entire thread did not exist.

How do you think my statement would have gone over in the main forum thread that asked about commentators, if I had replied to the fellow who voted for Jim Rempe by posting the following;

"Jim Rempe the best commentator? Why he is a part of what is holding pool back. We don't need a guy like him. The Arnold Schwarzenegger we need doesn't yet exist. Jim Rempe's grammar is terrible. Tell you the truth, I can't believe he even was able to graduate high school the way he talks. Best commentator? I don't think so."

Hmm? How do you think I'd have been received with those words? Do you think even just one person from the forum would feel I didn't mean anything by it?

What a bunch of horse$h!t.

Nick Varner graduated from Perdue, Steve Mizerak was a school teacher, I don't know what college he attended, but you don't become a teacher without an education. How about Bob Jewett? Clearly a well educated man. Pat Fleming, and on and on ...Argh, I'm starting to get all wound up again.

Regardless of how many of us attended college or how many didn't, stereotyping pool players by saying we are impoverished, lazy people who have to be talked down to was simply and clearly wrong. I'm no lemming, when someone insults me either personally or generally, I'm responding.