Ref Rulings in Vegas

[Cuebacca]

It should only be considered frozen if it's frozen. The time to make that call...and I will slightly modify my post to watchez here...is JUST before a frozen ball is shot at.

I don't think you should or are required under the rules to wander around the table before the opponent's inning starts making frozen ball calls.

the time to make the call is when any such ball is going to come into play on the next shot.

Regards,
Jim

I agree with what you're saying there. The only problem I can think of, though, is that sometimes you don't know if a frozen ball will come into play, until the player gets down on his shot. So in some cases it is better to call a ball frozen as soon as you notice it, rather than waiting to be sure it will come into play.

But how long exactly should it be considered frozen? The ideal answer of course is until it is no longer frozen. But one problem I can think of is what if it was called frozen on inning 1, and was still frozen on inning 32? By that time, it wouldn't have been too unreasonable for one of the players to forget that it was once frozen. That's the only reason why I'm wondering if there should be an expiration on frozen balls.

I definitely do agree with you and Watchez that they should at least be considered frozen in the example that he gave.

 

[av84fun]

I agree with what you're saying there. The only problem I can think of, though, is that sometimes you don't know if a frozen ball will come into play, until the player gets down on his shot. So in some cases it is better to call a ball frozen as soon as you notice it, rather than waiting to be sure it will come into play.

But how long exactly should it be considered frozen? The ideal answer of course is until it is no longer frozen. But one problem I can think of is what if it was called frozen on inning 1, and was still frozen on inning 32? By that time, it wouldn't have been too unreasonable for one of the players to forget that it was once frozen. That's the only reason why I'm wondering if there should be an expiration on frozen balls.

I definitely do agree with you and Watchez that they should at least be considered frozen in the example that he gave.

Good point...and maybe not even then.

That is one of those unfortunately grey areas in non-ref or area ref matches.

As you know, by rule, contacting a ball frozen to a rail does not constitute driving it to the rail and so a no rail foul should be called if that is what happens.

So, you are right that...technically...unless the opponent re-inspects the frozen ball after every shot a chicken s##t opponent could argue that it became unfrozen during the course of the rack.

The only thing I can think of in the absense of a ref would be to declare a ball or balls frozen and to agree with the opponent that it/they will be deemed frozen unless called UNfrozen during the rack.

But what this all really boils down to is absent a ref, the players must rely on honor.

In a league or tournament match, if someone pull that crap on me, I would do everything in my power UNDER THE RULES to mess with him.

For example, under WSR Rule #5, when no ref is present....

"The non-shooting player will perform all of the duties of the referee."

Well, it is the DUTY of the ref to position him or herself in such a way that any foul could be detected. Therefore, you get to follow the opponent around just like refs to so as to monitor the play. You just can't stand in his field of vision and shark him because that would be prohibited under the rules too.

If it was a money game...I would tell the guy it is either a foul or I'm taking my money off the light...even if he was 7 ahead in an 8 ahead match.

You can have my money if you beat me...but not if you cheat me.

Regards,
Jim

 

[alstl]

To be completely honest, this sounds like stuff only mid-level league players would pull.

If I am playing an opponent, and he makes a bank shot THAT HE OBVIOUSLY INTENDED, then I don't CARE what the rules are.. I'm gonna sit there with my mouth shut. If I am playing in a league where the rule is to call every single shot, and any large percentage of people try to "steal" the game by calling a foul because you didn't call a an obvious cross side bank, then that is probably not the league for me.

There is a general rule espoused by the better players in most leagues.. "Let the game decide the winner, not the rules." That means if your opponent is better than you, and is beating you, don't be chickens**t and try to get him on a technicality.

And as far as a player putting his ball over the line...Frankly, YOU should have been the one to be a good sport and point out to him that he was over the line. You should not be trying to win on technicalities.

This sounds like a match between two APA 4's.... Not good enough to win convincingly on skill, so they try to beat each other to death with the rulebook.

Russ

I agree with the bus on this one. When you get to be my age you develop habits like pointing to the pocket instead of saying it out loud and old habits are hard to break. If the guy slopped it in that's one thing but if he just forgot about some bureaucrat's new rule then don't complain about it.

 

[watchez]

I agree with what you're saying there. The only problem I can think of, though, is that sometimes you don't know if a frozen ball will come into play, until the player gets down on his shot. So in some cases it is better to call a ball frozen as soon as you notice it, rather than waiting to be sure it will come into play.

But how long exactly should it be considered frozen? The ideal answer of course is until it is no longer frozen. But one problem I can think of is what if it was called frozen on inning 1, and was still frozen on inning 32? By that time, it wouldn't have been too unreasonable for one of the players to forget that it was once frozen. That's the only reason why I'm wondering if there should be an expiration on frozen balls.

I definitely do agree with you and Watchez that they should at least be considered frozen in the example that he gave.

Well I was playing a lil Perry Mason in my question.

I have only seen this 'move' happen once and it was while gambling at one pocket. I was staking a player against a top one pocket player who everyone in the pool world today adores, getting a big spot. 10-6, We had this top one pocket player with his back against the wall - not knowing my friend's true speed & well, we actually had the top player a lil under rated too at the time. There was a ball frozen on the bottom rail. The guy I am staking calls it frozen. The top player pockets a ball in his hole. Next shot he gets down and it is not obvious in what he is going to do. He kicks one rail, but softly---just enough speed to hit the frozen ball. When my player calls foul, as there was no rail, the top player says you didn't call it froze again.

Now tell me, playing one pocket - wouldn't it be more of a shark to get up out of your seat on every shot, stand up over the ball, shade it to see if it is froze, call it and then sit back down. That would be ridiculous.

FatBoy says "the more rules, the lesser the player". I think you would have to define 'player' to make that statement true.

 

[av84fun]

Memo to Bob Jewett

I agree with the bus on this one. When you get to be my age you develop habits like pointing to the pocket instead of saying it out loud and old habits are hard to break. If the guy slopped it in that's one thing but if he just forgot about some bureaucrat's new rule then don't complain about it.

Bob, were you aware that you have become a bureaucrat?

Did you get a raise or just a or just a set of new business cards???

(-:

 

[Russ Chewning]

Well I was playing a lil Perry Mason in my question.

I have only seen this 'move' happen once and it was while gambling at one pocket. I was staking a player against a top one pocket player who everyone in the pool world today adores, getting a big spot. 10-6, We had this top one pocket player with his back against the wall - not knowing my friend's true speed & well, we actually had the top player a lil under rated too at the time. There was a ball frozen on the bottom rail. The guy I am staking calls it frozen. The top player pockets a ball in his hole. Next shot he gets down and it is not obvious in what he is going to do. He kicks one rail, but softly---just enough speed to hit the frozen ball. When my player calls foul, as there was no rail, the top player says you didn't call it froze again.

Now tell me, playing one pocket - wouldn't it be more of a shark to get up out of your seat on every shot, stand up over the ball, shade it to see if it is froze, call it and then sit back down. That would be ridiculous.

FatBoy says "the more rules, the lesser the player". I think you would have to define 'player' to make that statement true.

LOL... Well, I only know of TWO top One Pocket players that "everyone adores". One is Efren...And I'm pretty sure the other is your opponent in that game.

And if it is who I think it is, and he borrows money from everyone on Gawd's green earth, WITHOUT ever intending to pay it back, I am absolutely SHOCKED to hear he would pull a move like this.

10-6 against a good player, huh? Man...Someone would have to be a "spotmaster" to give up weight like that....

Russ

 

[alstl]

Bob, were you aware that you have become a bureaucrat?

Did you get a raise or just a or just a set of new business cards???

(-:

I didn't know it was Bob Jewett. In that case it was a foul and loss of game.

 

[av84fun]

I didn't know it was Bob Jewett. In that case it was a foul and loss of game.

LOL....................

 

[sde]

snip...wouldn't it be more of a shark to get up out of your seat on every shot, stand up over the ball, shade it to see if it is froze, call it and then sit back down. That would be ridiculous. snip

Yes that would be ridiculous.

If the ball was declared frozen before the previous shot and was not touched or moved in any way I don't see why you couldn't just say from your chair that the ball is still frozen. If your opponent agrees, it is still frozen and if he disagrees then you get up and look at again.

Steve

 

[watchez]

LOL... Well, I only know of TWO top One Pocket players that "everyone adores". One is Efren...And I'm pretty sure the other is your opponent in that game.

And if it is who I think it is, and he borrows money from everyone on Gawd's green earth, WITHOUT ever intending to pay it back, I am absolutely SHOCKED to hear he would pull a move like this.

10-6 against a good player, huh? Man...Someone would have to be a "spotmaster" to give up weight like that....

Russ

No Russ it is not Efren or the other player you are thinking. That was in poor taste of me trying to infer who it was because it will only get people guessing wrong. I apologize for that and wish I could take it back.

 

[av84fun]

Yes that would be ridiculous.

If the ball was declared frozen before the previous shot and was not touched or moved in any way I don't see why you couldn't just say from your chair that the ball is still frozen. If your opponent agrees, it is still frozen and if he disagrees then you get up and look at again.

Steve

The trouble is...I think...that A) you don't have to call a safety and it is not always obvious where the CB and OB are going.

B) the shooter may be attempting to pocket a shot softly...leaving it short of the pocket without contacting a rail in which case only the CB can save a foul but the opponent can't know how the shooter is going to execute the shot.

I THINK that is what Watchez is getting at.

Regards,
Jim

 

[DelaWho???]

Say a guy is going to shoot a 1 - 2 combo into the corner pocket, or a carom, or kick or whatever. Does he have to announce that he is doing a kick/combo/whatever, or can he just call the 2 in the corner and make the legal shot?
I think it should be call ball and pocket. All of this calling every kiss, carom or rail is a breeding ground for arguement. 2 in the corner should be enough of an announcement of intention in my opinion.
I hate to win on a technicality because someone called a ball clean and it touched an obstructing ball on the way in...

Banger

 

[satman]

This is whole point....

Jim,

I see where you are coming from as well. Let me make clear that I was speaking from the viewpoint of the person "calling" the foul. Personally, if I am playing league, I am going to act according to my personal core values when it comes to these situations.

Yes, I understand that at times, because I think like this, a lower-ranked player is going to get one over on me from time to time. That being said, I still will not "personally" make the choice to take a shot from my opponent in any but the most obvious cases.

If they are a lower ranked player and pull a "move" on me, then I will enforce everything from that point on. Most likely, they are not going to win unless they are sandbagging their rating, anyways. If they are a good player, I expect them to be a good sportsman as well. If not, then I will deal with that as it comes.

It may be as you say, and my experience may not be broad enough. I played perhaps two or three nights of APA 9 ball, got disgusted with the rules, and no longer subbed for that team anymore. I've done just fine in weekly open tournaments though..

And that is generally what I prefer: Open tournaments, winner-breaks, no handicaps. Maybe I am not cut out for league play. I like to compete against multiple top notch players in one evening. I had a practice session with Blackjack, and he suggested I should immediately hop into the Seminole events and leave the King's Bay tournaments alone. I am still trying to make up my mind on that. I LOVE winner breaks formats, but then again, I haven't played any good players in so long, the amateur events might get me back in the competitive groove.

Either way, I was merely making a statement about how I personally would choose to handle these situations. I can pay close attention to calling my own shots if needed, that's not the problem. I just enjoy competing against other good players, acting like honorable gentlemen and women. If someone plays a safe and accidentally makes a ball on me, and they act like they intended that... And I STILL beat them.. Well, for me...That's a moral victory..

Russ

There is a big difference in League play and playing, say in Vegas. First, you generally have no idea who the player is, or if they are cheaters by nature. We have had some really crazy things happen out there. I was playing a singles match that wouls guarantee me 5-6th and my opponent suddenly lays down and shoots a ball cross-side without calling it. Had he missed it short and it went 2 rails, do you think he would have given me the table? I have no way of knowing. But even a simple combo in the corner, the guy may miscue and make the back ball in another hole.
It's fine to be a gentleman, and show the proper sportsmanship, but they have that rule in place for a reason. A gesture toward the pocket, is not enough. Vegas is the one place where any bank, combo, or carom needs to be called, before the shot.

 

[klockdoc]

Say a guy is going to shoot a 1 - 2 combo into the corner pocket, or a carom, or kick or whatever. Does he have to announce that he is doing a kick/combo/whatever, or can he just call the 2 in the corner and make the legal shot?
I think it should be call ball and pocket. All of this calling every kiss, carom or rail is a breeding ground for arguement. 2 in the corner should be enough of an announcement of intention in my opinion.
I hate to win on a technicality because someone called a ball clean and it touched an obstructing ball on the way in...

Banger

BCA new rule changes this year states that all banks, caroms and combo's must be called.

However, only the ball and the pocket needs to be called. (ie; you do not need to say, 5 ball off the 3 in the corner pocket).

Even when I played this year and shooting a combo, I never even called the pocket if the pocket I was shooting towards was obvious. I just called the ball I wanted to pot.

 

[satman]

As for ref's, some make the right calls and some don't. I played a match where the ref made such a bad call on my opponent, that I told him we will not let the guy make another call in our match. I couldn't see the hit, but after the game, all the spectators agreed he made a good hit.
I had a frozen ball to shoot at in the team event. Ref declares it frozen, I jacked up and shot the ball to try and play shape, and he called a foul. They said had I just shot with a level cue, straight thru the ball, it would have been a good hit. Surprised me.

 

[ne14tennis]

As for ref's, some make the right calls and some don't. I played a match where the ref made such a bad call on my opponent, that I told him we will not let the guy make another call in our match. I couldn't see the hit, but after the game, all the spectators agreed he made a good hit.
I had a frozen ball to shoot at in the team event. Ref declares it frozen, I jacked up and shot the ball to try and play shape, and he called a foul. They said had I just shot with a level cue, straight thru the ball, it would have been a good hit. Surprised me.

In that case what he must have been looking/listening for was if the cue ball hit the ferrule....which is known to happen on elevated shots

 

[Thunderball]

The bus just got a row of seats or two longer.

From the "foul callers" perspective this is complete bullshaytt.Its rule book lawyering for the sake of winning for winnings sake.

Jim does make excellent points (always does),but for me its as simple as the spirit of the game.I do see how that can open a can of worms ect ect ect,But I aint callin that cheesy shyatt.

 

[klockdoc]

As for ref's, some make the right calls and some don't.

I was watching my daughter's game and the girl she was playing was using the bridge over the 12 ball to cut the 7 ball into the corner pocket. When she shot the 7, (which she made), the rake hit the 12 ball. The CB then came up table and passed by the 12 about 1 inch to the left. My daughter called a foul because of the BCA ruling where if a the CB passes within a 7 inch diameter of the interfered ball, it is a foul. As usual, the ref wasn't present and the call goes to the shooter.

Soooooo......... In my match, hill-hill, my opponent was shooting a similar shot. I froze him to the back side of two of my solids. He used the rake to shoot over the balls. I called the ref over to watch, (based on previous player situation), As he was jacked up over the solids, he accidently moved one of them. The ref immediately called a foul and picked up the CB and handed it to me. I went on to run the rack and win the game.

Afterwards, my opponent asked me what he did. I mentioned I was sitting in the chair and didn't have an good view on the exact circumstances and that he should ask the ref. The ref mentioned that he moved the CB and that is how he fouled. Honestly, I do not believe he did and I believe a bad call was made. I was fortunate because of this instance. He was unfortunate.

 

[OnePocketChamp]

The "Russ" Factor

Russ, we have never met but you are exactly the type of "old school" player I respect. This win at all cost rule book genius business just doesn't set well with me----beat me on the table not from page 14 or 33 in the rule book. The Vegas slogan "What goes on in Vegas, stays in Vegas" is not for me, I would hope I can leave any tournament with my pride intact and my personal code of honor unsoiled.

I have enjoyed many of your post in the past but this one just compelled me to reply.

 

[watchez]

Russ, we have never met but you are exactly the type of "old school" player I respect. This win at all cost rule book genius business just doesn't set well with me----beat me on the table not from page 14 or 33 in the rule book. The Vegas slogan "What goes on in Vegas, stays in Vegas" is not for me, I would hope I can leave any tournament with my pride intact and my personal code of honor unsoiled.

I have enjoyed many of your post in the past but this one just compelled me to reply.

Well said. Tap Tap