Referee controversy during SBE men's pro final match?

SUPERSTAR

I am Keyser Söze
Silver Member
I have heard that the referee for the final match between Van Boening and Pinegar was unprofessional and borderline controversial in the way he reprimanded Pinegar for moving around in his seat and getting up to see if there was a shot, and that the same referee basically said nothing to Van Boening for the exact same behaviors.
Where the ref is quoted as almost yelling something like "I've got the table, SIT DOWN!" to Pinegar in a rude manner, and of course, to add insult to injury, some of the audience members in the Van Boening contingent clapped when he got yelled at.
And I have also heard that he apparently gave Pinegar some rudeness when the rack wasn't done to his liking.

Can anyone who was actually there watching the final match in person, maybe shed some light on this?
 

JoeyA

Efren's Mini-Tourn BACKER
Silver Member
I'd love to hear more about this. If it is as you were told, it just plain sucks.

Hopefully, there were some AZBers who were there or who had friends who were there for an accurate report.

JoeyA
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
Seems shaky

Sometimes it is unavoidable and it happens but interaction with the referee should never have a major impact on a match. The ref's job is to be professional and noncontroversial, as close to invisible as possible. I have served as an official at many kinds of events and I never got loud nor did I ever appear to even consider that someone might question a call of mine. I never argued or got heated with a competitor during an event. Seems that Frank is known for being a little heavy handed as a ref.

One thing is the issue of impartiality which seems in question concerning Shane's rack. Did Shane move it where it needed to be without hearing Frank or did Frank let a high rack ride knowing that Shane has hearing issues? Having had hearing issues for forty years myself although not as severe as Shane's I have to say that it is his choice to turn down the hearing aids and his responsibility to hear the officials. If he was correcting his hearing to the best he was capable of then it becomes the official's responsibility to insure he communicates with Shane but if that requires getting in his line of vision that is what should be done. All competitors should be treated equally, without exception. If one competitor is a nice guy and the other not so nice or one well known and the other not so well known that should have zero impact on how a referee conducts themself.

Hu
 

ComptonCustomCues

Quality Handcrafted Cues
Silver Member
hate to say it I disagree with the ref....and I agree with shooting arts. I've seen john in alot of action and he isn't as bad a guy as everone thinks....he is getting better....I think there might have been some biast in this incident.
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
I don't know this referee personally, but I have seen him action on television. I'd take him on my team any day of the week. I like his style and his professionalism.
 

spanky79

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There are ways to talk to someone and get your point across without being a douchbag. All Frank had to do was politely say, John please stay in your seat while Shane is at the table. There is no need to either raise your voice or make a scene.
Some people are calling it professionalism I call it B.S.
I bet if that was Jonny Archer or any other well respected player getting up to inspect a rack nothing would have been said.
One more thing a player in a match has every right to make sure his opponent is racking properly. Especially after He was just warned for the same thing.
If there was a problem with John moving in his seat while Shane was shooting I'm sure Shane would of said something.
People like this, that make a scene for no reason, have a I'm the boss, I'm better than you attitude, give our sport a bad name.
 

smoooothstroke

JerLaw
Silver Member
I disagree

There are ways to talk to someone and get your point across without being a douchbag. All Frank had to do was politely say, John please stay in your seat while Shane is at the table. There is no need to either raise your voice or make a scene.
Some people are calling it professionalism I call it B.S.
I bet if that was Jonny Archer or any other well respected player getting up to inspect a rack nothing would have been said.
One more thing a player in a match has every right to make sure his opponent is racking properly. Especially after He was just warned for the same thing.
If there was a problem with John moving in his seat while Shane was shooting I'm sure Shane would of said something.
People like this, that make a scene for no reason, have a I'm the boss, I'm better than you attitude, give our sport a bad name.

The ref is there to oficiate the match.If the player at the table has to point out problems with his oponent it can serve to distract the complaining player even more.If the player has the right to check racks then it will say so in the tournament rules witch the ref is there to inforce.


Of course an official is expected to remain profesional at all times regardless of the players behavior or attitude.
 

mosconiac

Job+Wife+Child=No Stroke
Silver Member
The ref (any ref) can be put in uneviable positions at times & they need to respond in the most professional & respectful manner possible given the circumstances. When you are dealing with a person with known (significant IMO) issues, it is easy to be very quick to correct them to ensure things don't get out of hand. To the casual bystander, this appears as abrupt, rude, or unfair (unequal) behavior. It is not.

Given what I know of the ref & the player in question, the ref was VERY smart to respond quickly & sternly.
 

Koop

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have heard that the referee for the final match between Van Boening and Pinegar was unprofessional and borderline controversial in the way he reprimanded Pinegar for moving around in his seat and getting up to see if there was a shot, and that the same referee basically said nothing to Van Boening for the exact same behaviors.
Where the ref is quoted as almost yelling something like "I've got the table, SIT DOWN!" to Pinegar in a rude manner, and of course, to add insult to injury, some of the audience members in the Van Boening contingent clapped when he got yelled at.
And I have also heard that he apparently gave Pinegar some rudeness when the rack wasn't done to his liking.

Can anyone who was actually there watching the final match in person, maybe shed some light on this?

Not surprising considering how he treats spectators as well. He has been known to stop all action, pick someone out of the crowd and yell at them to leave. Talk about embarrasing and uncalled for.
Not saying they didn't break a rule, like sneeze while someone was shooting :rolleyes:, but come one...no one needs to be chastised like a little kid in front of everyone like that.

Koop - not his biggest fan
 

sjm

Sweating it at Derby City
Silver Member
On the whole, I'd give this referee fairly high marks.

Still, I'd say that the referee crossed the line in the final. It was clear that he came into the match with an agenda, and that was disallowing Jon to disrupt the flow or the integrity of the play. In view of Jon's track record, this was within reason. Nonetheless, although Jon did get out of his chair prematurely a few times during the match, he never did so in view of Shane, and the referee gave him a lot of crap over it and, in my opnion, most unnecessarily.

On one occasion, Jon had returned from a bathroom break, and the referee, who was also the master of ceremonies, tried to continue yukking it up with the crowd, and talked to Jon (about the crowd, not the match) despite the fact that Jon was ready to break the next rack, and this, understandably, upset Jon, who retorted that he was trying to focus on the match.

The nonsense with the rack was also really pretty ridiculous. Both Jon and Shane found it easier to freeze the balls by going just a hair above the spot, and the referee, in my opinion, should have let it go rather than making a federal case of it. The referee was not checking the racks up close to check that the balls were frozen to each other, so this selective administration of racking justice seemed a bit ridiculous to me.

I'd also say that the referee, without any provokation, spoke to Jon in an unecessarily harsh tone that was different than the one in which he addressed Shane.

On the whole, good intentions, but poor execution by this referee. Players need to be treated with a bit more respect than this.

Once again, however, I must add that this fellow, on the whole, does a pretty good job as both referee and master of ceremonies, but he must learn to manage the players and the crowd with just a little more tact.
 
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SUPERSTAR

I am Keyser Söze
Silver Member
On the whole, I'd give this referee fairly high marks.

Still, I'd say that the referee crossed the line in the final. It was clear that he came into the match with an agenda, and that was disallowing Jon to disrupt the flow or the integrity of the play. In view of Jon's track record, this was within reason. Nonetheless, although Jon did get out of his chair prematurely a few times during the match, he never did so in view of Shane, and the referee gave him a lot of crap over it and, in my opnion, most unnecessarily.

On one occasion, Jon has retruned from a bathroom break, and the referee, who was also the master of ceremonies tried to continue yukking it up with the crowd, and talked to Jon desptie the fact that Jon was ready to break the next rack, and this, understandably upset Jon, who retorted that he was trying to focus on the match.

The nonsense with the rack was also really pretty ridiculous. Both Jon and Shane found it easier to freeze the balls by going just a hair above the spot, and the referee, in my opinion, should have let it go ather than making a federal case of it. The referee was not checking the racks up close to check that the balls were frozen to each other, so this selctive administration of racking justice seemed a bit ridiculous to me.

I'd also say that the referee spoke to Jon in an unecessarily hrsh tone that was different than the way he addressed Shane.

On the whole, good intentions, but poor execution by this referee.

Thank you. Thank you.
Since i was not there, it is difficult to get a good understanding of what the truth is, and what is sensationalism, or playing favorites.

I've known plenty of refs who i'd say do a great job, who on one occasion or another have just completely failed at what it is they are supposed to do, but regardless of why they might have failed or not, their credentials as a referee have never come into question for being flat out ignorant to a player.

I also just talked to someone else, who does not post online, and he said that it was the most unprofessional display by a referee he has ever seen in a professional pool match EVER. And this guy has seen a lot of tournaments.
That's a pretty strong statement if you ask me.

I know that if i were a player in a big event, there is no way that i would ever tolerate getting berated at by an official. As a matter of fact, if it was bad enough, i would ask the official to be removed/replaced, and if that somehow caused me to get yelled at more, i would just break my cue down and forfeit.

There is no reason an official should treat any player poorly.
PERIOD!

That whole "i've got the power/i am god" syndrome, needs to be dealt with.
It should never be an issue, especially in a FINAL MATCH.
That's just wrong.

I wonder if the match would have been closer if all this garbage didn't happen and if it took Pinegar out of his game at all. Whether that means he would have won one more game, or the whole thing, that would be a real crime if the antics took the wind out of his sails enough to affect the outcome in any way.
 

UrackmIcrackm

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I didn't see it either but have seen Frank out of line before so I wasn't surprised when I heard about the situation. I'm not a fan of Pinegar or Frank so it isn't easy for me to defend either one.

It sounds as if Frank was premature in his actions towards Pinegar and I don't doubt it, but... in this case I look at it as karma getting a little swipe back at Pinegar. Actually karma got a little swipe at both of them. Pinegar finally got a small taste of his own medicine and Frank proved to a large crowd what a jerk and how unprofessional he can be at times. I say it is a wash. :wink:
 

SUPERSTAR

I am Keyser Söze
Silver Member
And this just in.

WOW!
It was just brought to my attention that Allen Hopkins might not even know exactly how rude this referee can be to everyone, staff and fans included.

Hhmmmmmmmmm.
 

alstl

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Does this happen to be the same guy who got into it with Sigel in Europe?

Why would an official shark a player? Official sharking a player, money being bet on the side...makes you wonder. No, that would never happen in the game of pool.
 

JSturgisPhotos

New member
Frank handled himself the same way all weekend. He was sarcastic to some. When your a ref and you ask a player to do something and have to do it over and over, then I can see having to be stern about it. Jonathan did get up several times during the match, even if it was out of Shane's line of sight. Frank told him several time to stay seated until it was his turn to at the table. I do think that that when Pinegar got up when Frank had told Van Boeing that his rack was high, I think Pinegar was trying to get Shane's attention because as most know, Shane is deaf. I don't think he heard Frank at all. He didn't acknowledge Frank at all and didn't adjust the rack. I even heard Jonathan say, "Shane" and that was when Frank cut off Jonathan. I was in the front row of the VIP section shooting photos for this site and had a clear ear to all said. Just my point of view.
 

UrackmIcrackm

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Does this happen to be the same guy who got into it with Sigel in Europe?

Why would an official shark a player? Official sharking a player, money being bet on the side...makes you wonder. No, that would never happen in the game of pool.

It isn't the same guy. This guy is a stand up comic (not a very prosperous one) who had done some of the challenge of champions and other events Allen would put on for tv.

He used to be an assistant TD under Scott Smith until Scott was caught sleeping on the job (or something to that effect) and then Frank was made the head TD. It was at this time that he grew horns so to speak. His assistants are too kind to say a bad word about anyone, let alone complain to Allen about a guy that they know is a friend of his, even though Frank talks to them like they're dogs right in front of others.
 
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