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Reply to Rodie about Case Copying
- Thread starter Jack Justis
- Start date
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No problem, I probably have commented on your cases about a dozen times and I am very impressed with your work. The finished product you put out is excellent and a ton of top players carry it. I just cannot deny that there is many things alike with you and Jay Flowers cases. I do like the old school rough look of Flowers cases and also of your perfect finished cases, you took that design to another level.
I just do not think it is a problem to state that you used stuff from Flowers design and also that the people you say are copying your cases could also translate to being influenced by Flowers cases and not just your design. I believe you have signature type stuff that makes it unique to you and I have yet to truly see a copy that would confuse me with your work and stuff from somewhere else to be honest.
I have owned cases from all of the above makers and they all had somthing special or unique about them.
I would be more inclined to buy Jacks Cases just because I know I can resell it for as much as I paid or more when I get boared with it. There have been several Barton cases that I liked very much in the 800 to 1000 dollar range but was afraid that if I ever went to get rid of them I 'd be lucky to get back 50 %. JMO.
So to me this would be why Jack is better. Kinda like the Szamboti of casemaking.
I would be more inclined to buy Jacks Cases just because I know I can resell it for as much as I paid or more when I get boared with it. There have been several Barton cases that I liked very much in the 800 to 1000 dollar range but was afraid that if I ever went to get rid of them I 'd be lucky to get back 50 %. JMO.
So to me this would be why Jack is better. Kinda like the Szamboti of casemaking.
That is not what this thread is about. It's also not about which case is a better made product.
It's only about whether Mr. Justis is correct in his assertion that Mr. Barton copied Justis cases or not.
Since you have owned a case made by Mr. Barton and Mr. Justis would you say that the Barton case looked enough like a Justis to be easily taken for one?
Did you own a J.Flowers style or another type of Barton case?
I don't see these types of topics doing either business any good. :frown:
..and why would one entity be hiding behind a anonymous username? Who is "roadie"? I see there is suspicion that he is Barton. Why this "cornfed" = "bucktooth" cherade?
BTW, my name is Mark Nelson from Bettendorf, Iowa as you can see from my case photos in my sig. You can also see what I look like by clicking the vid link in the table section of my sig.
Who are you "Roadie"? I think this question should be answered before the discussion goes any further. JMHO.
BTW, my name is Mark Nelson from Bettendorf, Iowa as you can see from my case photos in my sig. You can also see what I look like by clicking the vid link in the table section of my sig.
Who are you "Roadie"? I think this question should be answered before the discussion goes any further. JMHO.
Mr. Nelson,
How is it pertinent to the discussion whether you know my name or not? If for, example you had made the same accusation as Mr. Justis did then I would still ask you to defend that accusation based on it's merits and not based on your identity.
There is only one question at hand here that has any relevance. Did Mr. Justis prove his claim or not?
And my follow up question is did Mr. Justis copy essential elements of his case construction from Mr. Flowers?
These two questions stand independent of anyone's identities.
We could put them in front of a random group of people and ask them whether they see significant similarities in the three maker's cases and whether they felt that any one of them is a direct copy of any other one. Or whether they are all three examples of cases done in a similar style only.
Do you have an opinion on this topic that you can quantify?
There is a very good reason that I do not choose to reveal my identity. It is to forestall personal attack and keep my discussions to the point and civil. I personally do not care what your name is but if I know then I will use it as that is my habit to address people I don't know in a formal way.
I very much would like to continue the discussion and find some consensus or some logical rebuttal. I just enjoy the discussion and frankly don't really care about Mr. Barton, Mr. Justis or their business. I care only that I feel that Mr. Justis has made an accusation that he has not proven to my satisfaction and an unproven public accusation is unjust.
A similar style is not a copy of. Or do you see it differently and if so why?
This is the case you link to:
Do you see any similarity in this case you own to any of these cases?
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I'm just a guy sitting on the curb watching the parade go by here, so I don't have implicit interest in the outcome. However, you've made it apparent you do...you’re the Grand Marshall of the parade. If you didn’t have interest in the outcome, why would you so doggedly pursue the matter?
The reason I asked my question is a matter of disclosure. You are hell-bent to prove your point about Justis cases, so why is it unreasonable to know who you are? A small concession when you are dealing with a person’s career.
One can only assume that you are in fact, Mr. Barton. If that is true, the only tarnishing to be done here is with your name. For a manufacturer to instigate another using anonymity is beyond dubious.
The reason I asked my question is a matter of disclosure. You are hell-bent to prove your point about Justis cases, so why is it unreasonable to know who you are? A small concession when you are dealing with a person’s career.
One can only assume that you are in fact, Mr. Barton. If that is true, the only tarnishing to be done here is with your name. For a manufacturer to instigate another using anonymity is beyond dubious.
OMG, Kodak Moment!
Craig bit his tongue.
:grin: :grin:Come on Craig, tell us how you really feel about Roadie.
justis case
Hell no ,this is like comparing a edsel to a porsch, justis being a porsch. Rich
Hell no ,this is like comparing a edsel to a porsch, justis being a porsch. Rich
Actually you have joined in the parade but that is ok. Mr. Justis made the accusations. He started a thread addressed to me when I addressed the accusation that Mr. Rittel referred to.
Again, identity has nothing to do with the topic. The attempted reputation tarnishing is being done by Mr. Justis here in a direct manner.
In my opinion there is no shame or career-busting revelation in having Mr. Justis admit that his cases use elements of Mr. Flowers' cases. It's just not right to openly accuse Mr. Barton of copying Justis and of design theft when Mr. Barton doesn't make a case that is a copy of a Justis, especially if your own cases are built on the basic design of someone else's.
I suppose I am grandstanding a bit but it's because I don't like to see a person railroaded for something that they didn't do. Mr. Justis enjoys a lot of respect on this forum, well deserved for the incredible work he puts out. Mr. Barton is a polarizing figure at best. He has plenty of faults that he can be criticized for. No need to make any up.
Only these points are relevant to this discussion, none other. Take out all the names and just show the products in chronological order so we can have a pure discussion on the history and evolution of cases.
For example, GuyCrunch just posted a Melton case that uses a decorative design taken from Fellini case. Everyone is complimentary of it, no one is crying foul for the fact that this design was taken from Fellini. Had Mr. Barton done the same thing it is highly likely that someone would have accused him of design theft.
When you talk about affecting someone else's career, how is it that Mr. Justis can justify even making a joke about copying in a thread that shows a really original case by Mr. Barton? That is the reason I am on this soapbox today. Frankly though I am tired of it because no one wants to have a friendly and civil debate on the merits of the claims.
And my fingers hurt and I want to read about something else and talk about something else.
So therefore you feel that Mr. Justis is not accurate in his assessment that Mr. Barton has copied Justis cases?
The only real similarity being that they are just both cue cases as the Edsel and the Porsche are both cars?
RICH,
YOU ARE THE MAN, AND WE'RE BUDS....... BUT THIS STATEMENT IS WAY OFF. I'VE HAD CASES FROM ALL THESE GUYS, AND I WOULDN'T CARRY MY CUES IN A PRO-LITE EVEN IF IT WAS GIVEN TO ME. NO OFFENSE TO JACK, HIS FIT AND FINISH IS TOP NOTCH, BUT THE PROTECTION/INTERIOR IN THE PRO LITES IS INFERIOR TO THE MEMORY FOAM INTERIOR AND IT'S A VERY SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE. I KNOW EVERYBODY LIKES JACK, AND THAT HIS CASES SELL WELL AND HOLD VALUE, BUT YOU CAN'T SAY HE IS THE PORSCHE AND THE BARTON STUFF IS AN EDSEL.
I DON'T REALLY CARE WHO COPIED WHO (ALTHOUGH TO ME IT'S OBVIOUS THAT ALL THE DESIGN ELEMENTS GO BACK TO Mr. FLOWERS) BUT I COULDN'T HAVE JOHN'S CASES COMPARED TO AN EDSEL, WHEN I'VE OWNED SOME OF ALL THESE CASES AND THE BARTON CASES ARE THE BEST PROTECTION OUT THERE IN A CUSTOM "LITE" CASE.
I'M NOT LOOKING FOR A PISSING MATCH, BUT I HAD TO SAY WHAT I WAS THINKING.
Man, I made that statement before about a cue of mine getting a nick on the clearcoat and I got BLASTED from Jack Justis and a few others saying it was impossible.....Oh well...I still Love Justis cases, but Id have a tube style Justis over a pro lite any day....but the memory foam...Thats where my cues are kept safe
I wholeheartedly agree.....
:thumbup2: mr walker
made me chuckle, eric!
you'd think these guys were nasa engineers redesigning the space shuttle.
I agree with you. In doing the research for this thread I have come to appreciate the Jay Flowers cases from Jay even more. Barton's cases, while not copies of Justis, do have a more modern style to them than the classic feeling I get from the Jay Flowers cases.
Jay Flowers feel like old world cowboy holsters or saddles or a well worn satchel. Barton needs to focus on that part of Mr. Flower's work as well in my opinion otherwise he may very well end up drifting more towards Mr. Justis' style.
My conclusion to the thread I think will be that Mr. Barton did not copy Justis.
But the J.Flowers cases could be mistaken for a Justis simply because Justis is the predominantly known brand doing cases in this style and because the J.Flowers has a modern profile to it with the long bottom pocket and shorter top pocket.
Mr. Justis patterned his cases after those done by Mr. Flowers but did not copy his cases verbatim either. It seems to me that some early Justis cases could have been mistaken for Flowers cases when both case makers were actively producing them.
I feel as though all three men's work is distinctively different that none of them could or should make any accusation against the other of copying.
Last night I watched a movie and one of the lines in the movie was that "someone made fire first and when they did, for a time, the man who could MAKE fire ruled the world. Until someone else took that knowledge from him."
For a time Jay Flowers ruled the custom case world. According to Mr. Chris Tate at www.thepalmercollector.com Jay was making cases on an assembly line. And despite that we have very few examples today and most of them are different. Mr. Tate says that Mr. Flowers claimed to have a backlog of up to 1000 cases. Impressive in the time before the internet.
After him came Justis, Instroke, Swift, and many others building in the same basic leather over tubes with box-type pockets. Their pocket placement, exact placement of rivets and snaps and buckles and exterior decoration were different enough but the influence is clear enough.
In my opinion doing Flower's style cases with western stamping is like picking off the low hanging fruit. It's easy because of the broad appeal. A real innovator in cue cases is someone like that guy who makes cases wrapped in bungy cord with chinese finger puzzle sleeves, Hagar or something like that.
Barton makes one line he calls the J.Flowers line. He gives credit to Jay Flowers for it. He probably should give credit to Jack as well for continuing to further the appeal of the Flowers style. Making this line of cases is just picking up easy business no matter whether the goal is to truly pay tribute or capitalize on an appealing look. Justis picks on things like rivet placement while failing to acknowledge the wider body of Mr. Barton's work that are far away from anything he has done. Both makers are guilty of being boring. Both are innovators in their own right.
I challenge both to raise the bar in creativity even higher. Don't argue about who has taken more from the past. Change the future.
I am not taking sides...
Have you ever noticed that when a restaurant comes into town that is unlike any other, many other restaurants try to copy? When that new Greek restaurant comes into town and is a sensation, at least one of two things WILL happen. More people will open Greek restaurants, or incumbent restaurants will start to serve Greek items. It is a fairly simple concept in business. If someone is doing something better than you are, copy them. Whatever competetive advantage they have over you can be minimized if you copy them. Tangible assets (plant, equip, vicinity of resources, design, etc.) are infinitely easier to copy than intangible assets (experience, customer loyalty, technique, etc.). Copying is precisely the reason there are patents, copyrights, trademarks, etc. Trust me, I go to Southeastern.
Have you ever noticed that when a restaurant comes into town that is unlike any other, many other restaurants try to copy? When that new Greek restaurant comes into town and is a sensation, at least one of two things WILL happen. More people will open Greek restaurants, or incumbent restaurants will start to serve Greek items. It is a fairly simple concept in business. If someone is doing something better than you are, copy them. Whatever competetive advantage they have over you can be minimized if you copy them. Tangible assets (plant, equip, vicinity of resources, design, etc.) are infinitely easier to copy than intangible assets (experience, customer loyalty, technique, etc.). Copying is precisely the reason there are patents, copyrights, trademarks, etc. Trust me, I go to Southeastern.
hey mr.roadie.whats in all this for you?its really looks like you have the jealous bone and hatred for mr.justis not mr.barton.my advice to you is to let it go and find someone to give a hug to and forget about it.jack justis is a very good friend of mine and is 70 years old and has 2 heart surgerys.i for one do not appreciate the ways you are doing the bashing towards him so like i said let it go.if i keep hearing this nonsence i will certainly be looking for you at a tourney or show and kindly drag you to the parking lot and you wont be picking on a 70 year old man then.