Rodney shows up in Reno

[Ken_4fun]

Sage advice. Probably advice that only people with rich experiences in a long life can truly understand.

Or said another way, in the words of Michael Corleone in The Godfather, "Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer." :yes:

Maybe not, maybe he will be ....

 

[PETROBOY]

Whos Facebook page was this on?

I seen it on Lee Bretts

 

[JAM]

Maybe not, maybe he will be ....

.•.•.•.•.•.•.

 

[alstl]

First I should say that this entire situation, although a travesty, was both necessary and bound to happen.

Mark has been a man of his word and from my experience he has stood behind everything he has ever promoted. If you go back and look at the Qlympics, you'll see what I mean. Mark had a vision of a big table blowout with tons of amateurs and pros alike. It was 17 days long and extremely low turnout. Even though he had to go in the hole by many tens of thousands of dollars, he paid out what he promised. He even tried to work with the vendors who suffered from the low turnout. Mark also bailed out the tournament in Arizona where the promoter left the top 12 or so pro players with bad checks and a bad taste in their mouths. Even with all this, Mark has been the target of many pro players who expect favoritism. I have personally seen more than once, extremely harsh and abusive things sent to Mark. All by players who expect some special treatment. It was bound to happen that he would get tired of putting his money at risk, often with negative returns I might add, and still be abused for doing so.

As for the players, I am now and have been extremely concerned for them. I don't know Rodney very well, but I do know a few of them and would love to see all of them with an opportunity to do better. Most of them are good guys in a bad situation. As a business man, I stand to gain significantly from a successful professional tour. Unfortunately, I think that most of the pros seem to think that the solution is some rich guy to come along and support pro pool. I simply don't expect that to happen. The money to support a pro tour has to come from a fan base. That's were all the money comes from that supports all large sports or games that we know of. Advertisers spend money to sponsor golf tournaments to get a shot at the fan money. It's all about the return on their investment. I for one, would like to see the players do something to grow a fan base. Have you ever wondered why so few of the hundreds of thousands of league players follow professional pool? How many of them really know who those players really are? I see it as a missed opportunity for professional pool.

Ok, now to the quote that this post was all about in the first place. I'm not sure exactly how this all goes down, but my understanding is that the backers usually put the player in. So, the player would not be calling the backer and asking for more money. This brings me to a question. When whoever it was that put Rodney in the US Open 10 ball event did so, they would have received the players packet of information. I'm assuming it would have been emailed to them. Did they forward that information to Rodney? Did he know about the code of conduct? Either way, did Rodney go to the players meeting where he would have possibly heard the same information? I know many players choose not to go to the players meetings, although I don't know why. If Rodney had been informed about the code of conduct, assuming he wasn't, would he have acted differently? No matter what the answer to any of the above questions are, the players are still responsible for knowing the rules.

In closing, I hope that this all settles down and nothing but good comes from it. Sometimes it takes things escalating to this level before both sides can come together and work towards a common goal.

Respectfully to all those in the pool world,

Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com

Back in the days prior to free agency in baseball Pirates General Manager Branch Rickey replied to Ralph Kiner's repeated requests/disputes for more money by trading him to the Cubs and reportedly said "We finished last with you, we can finish last without you".

I hear the players bash promoters in both major tournaments and local events in which the promoter frequently is lucky to break even and often loses money and the same players wonder why there isn't more money in pool.

The solution - if it's that easy run your own tournaments. I'd like to see what rules Rodney would have for his tournaments and whether he would make or lose money.

 

[RBC]

Back in the days prior to free agency in baseball Pirates General Manager Branch Rickey replied to Ralph Kiner's repeated requests/disputes for more money by trading him to the Cubs and reportedly said "We finished last with you, we can finish last without you".

I hear the players bash promoters in both major tournaments and local events in which the promoter frequently is lucky to break even and often loses money and the same players wonder why there isn't more money in pool.

The solution - if it's that easy run your own tournaments. I'd like to see what rules Rodney would have for his tournaments and whether he would make or lose money.

alstl

I agree. Unfortunately, it's tough for the players to really see it.

It's not uncommon for those who have not been in business for themselves to think that it's peaches and cream. That because you own your own business, that you must be making it hand over fist. Reality is that it takes a lot of hard work, good decisions, and a lot of luck to just be a little successful.

Most of the promoters are fortunate enough to have been successful in other ventures. This good fortune has given them the opportunity to try to do something good for pool, and good for pool players. It takes a lot of cash to be able to put on a big event. Even if it is successful and you make a little bit more than you spent, you still have to put a lot out there and make a lot of promises up front. That's why so many have found themselves in trouble. They thought they could depend on money coming in that just didn't materialize.

I can see how the players might think that the promoters are making boat loads of money because they see them to be doing very well. When in reality, they just might be spending all that they made somewhere else. I'm sure that deciding to put on a big pool tournament has taken zero's off many a promoters bank account.

I wish all the best for the players. They have tremendous talent that makes us all envious. I wish all the best for the promoters. They put there hard earned money at great risk just to try to do good for the players.

But, when the rubber meets the road, it all comes down to money. The players can't survive if they all just get together and play for each others money, and the promoters won't keep losing theirs if they don't think they can make a return. So the money has to come from somewhere else. The only solution I can see is to grow a fan base. When all the amateur players around this country start to root and cheer for their favorite player, then the money will happen all on it's own. You wan't outside sponsors? They want buts in seats. Give them a bunch of people who will watch something and you will have their support. I mean they have hot dog eating contests on ESPN! You wan't to know why, because tons of people will watch it. It doesn't get any simpler than that.


Royce

 

[KoolKat9Lives]

alstl

The only solution I can see is to grow a fan base. When all the amateur players around this country start to root and cheer for their favorite player, then the money will happen all on it's own. You wan't outside sponsors? They want buts in seats. Give them a bunch of people who will watch something and you will have their support. I mean they have hot dog eating contests on ESPN! You wan't to know why, because tons of people will watch it. It doesn't get any simpler than that.


Royce

It's a catch 22. The players are fighting over scraps while incurring serious expenses. Some feel the need to resort to unscrupilous things. Bye bye sponsors.

I've said this before... It's the horse before the cart theory. The product - the pros - too many are polluted. What Griffin and others are doing to inhibit corruption and disgrace, I applaud.

Cull out the horsecrap and THEN there's a product that sponsors will back. Tell the consumer how John Doe Pro was raised. Give us a connection and a reason to root for our favorite. Then, the marketing $$$'s follow and will enable more butts in the seats - butts that also buy product.

Horse first. $$ later.

 

[NYC cue dude]

Lots of things have to happen before pool has a chance to be profitable for players and promoters alike. The first step, IMO, is delivering a marketable product. Mark has taken the initiative towards that end by banning troublesome players and inviting those that will be more inclined to exercise professionalism on and off the table.

 

[yobagua]

Lots of things have to happen before pool has a chance to be profitable for players and promoters alike. The first step, IMO, is delivering a marketable product. Mark has taken the initiative towards that end by banning troublesome players and inviting those that will be more inclined to exercise professionalism on and off the table.

Im curious to know has Earl been banned from all CSI events as well? Was Alex banned after showing up drunk playing a final to a major event at the Derby? Will there be drug testing in the future of CSI events? I think if Mark is going to take it upon himself to ban people for being "troublesome" there should be some kind of criteria that the players and fans should know about.
Or do you think that Mark, because he is the owner and producer, can be selective as to what is "troublesome" or not?

 

[NYC cue dude]

Im curious to know has Earl been banned from all CSI events as well? Was Alex banned after showing up drunk playing a final to a major event at the Derby? Will there be drug testing in the future of CSI events? I think if Mark is going to take it upon himself to ban people for being "troublesome" there should be some kind of criteria that the players and fans should know about.
Or do you think that Mark, because he is the owner and producer, can be selective as to what is "troublesome" or not?

I'm on the record, for many years, specifically about Earl. I'd have no problem banning earl, permanently, if he misbehaved in any event I was involved with. His legacy be damned.

Regarding Mark's dilemma, let me ask 2 questions. Who caused this current situation? Do you really think Mark wants to be forced into banning players or that this never happened in the first place?

We can't know what Mark's line in the sand was. IMO, he waited too long to take action. But Rodney was warned many months ago to cool it. He decided he knew better.

The rules aren't ambiguous. They are known by all players, acknowledged and agreed to, in writing, before the first ball is struck in all of CSI's events. Copies of these published rules are contained somewhere in this thread if you're interested. Don't take this last paragraph lightly. No one can claim ignorance, like Rodney attempted to do, and retain any shred of credibility. It just doesn't work that way. Rodney (and others apparently-so, he's not being singled out) is just learning that, those that play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

 

[cardiac kid]

Yobagua,

Think Mark has the both the right and the ability to be selective as to who he (CSI) allows to play in any event he sponsors or promotes. It will become really interesting whether those same unnamed players, except for Rodney of course, are allowed to play in the upcoming CSI Invitationals and next years Derby City Classic. Its a ways away but food for thought. Be interesting to see who shows up at the SBE Pro event next week as well. Diamond is a major promoter of the event and both Mark and Greg have attended in the past. Very interesting !!!

Lyn

 

[yobagua]

LAMas

While it would be great if people of all walks of life came out to watch a pool tournament, I don't think it will be that successful in today's world. I'm afraid that it wouldn't bring many folks out. I know some promoters have tried local advertisement, and it hasn't really worked. Now, advertising it to people who are already involved in pool would be a different story. Or, at least it could be. The first thing that would need to happen is that the avid pool players would have to know who the pros were that would be attending. I mean, first they have to actually know who they are, and then they have to know who will be attending.

You see, the real first step is to go after the "low hanging fruit" so to speak. We already have hundreds of thousands of avid pool players in the US. I couldn't do what I do if we didn't. At least a significant number of those players would be at least a little interested in knowing, not only who the professional players were, but also something about them. Most all of us who play pool admire and look up to the ones who play better. Especially if they are a positive influence on others. Those avid players are the "low hanging fruit".

I know that if I had enough talent to play at a professional level, and chose to do it for a living, the first thing I would do would be to start growing a fan base. The cool part is that Facebook makes it much easier than it used to be. Nascar guys have tons of fan club members who pay money to be a part of the club. For being a part of the club, they get constant information and news about the driver. News that isn't available to others. They get special offers for promotions and products. They get free stuff. All of that comes from companies who want to sell to that audience. Those companies are willing to give away stuff and give big discounts just to be able to market directly to those fans. When a company decides to sponsor a driver, they know they are getting access to very high numbers of very motivated fans. It's almost a no brainer!

I sure would like to see more of that in pool.

I think Mark Griffin is on the right track. I'm really looking forward to this year's BCAPL Nationals. I think the invitational pro events will be fantastic, and I certainly hope to see some bridges being built between the pro and amateur players.


Royce Bunnell

All good ideas! But have you ever given the thought that if you ever did "develop enough talent to play at a professional level", you might have spent all your time developing your stroke, playing precise position, competing on a tier 1 level, etc instead of business, money management, and developing a "fan base"?
It is rare that athletes can do both well. They need to be taught. Guys like you and Mark Griffin can probably help in that direction. Just as Magic Johnson has given his career to doing so developing young talent as well as their politics and business acumen. And Magic did many, many mistakes himself as a young player.
NASCAR guys have a whole company behind them. Pool players are virtually on their own when they hit the pro circuit.
I myself have agents that represent me in all areas. I have at least 12 agents that speak for me on the west coast and 3 in the east. I never have to negotiate money, meals, or housing. If I am wrong in my thinking my agents explain to me what the deall is. If they are wrong my reps tell them why. If Im not getting what I think Im worth my people explain to me what the production costs are and the producers are willing to make it up to me on a future venue. All along the way my hand has been held guiding me to make financial decisions. I was too naïve and uninformed to make a correct decision. They protected me from myself but also protected me against scrupulous individuals In the business who would not think twice about slicing, dicing, the talent and running off with all the profits.
Players spend their life perfecting their performance. Its usually alone without any real help other than players themselves. Many have never read a book in their life but they can draw whitey real good.
I don't think those of us who come to the defense of the player is because of some kind of sycophantic allegiance but more that we identify with them in their struggle and dedication to the game that we would like to have become masters of in another life.
We refrain from judging because we know the road it took to where it got them and understand it is the PLAYER that makes the game what it is and hope that they will mature not only in their expertise but knowledge of their total responsibility.

 

[yobagua]

I'm on the record, for many years, specifically about Earl. I'd have no problem banning earl, permanently, if he misbehaved in any event I was involved with. His legacy be damned.

Regarding Mark's dilemma, let me ask 2 questions. Who caused this current situation? Do you really think Mark wants to be forced into banning players or that this never happened in the first place?

We can't know what Mark's line in the sand was. IMO, he waited too long to take action. But Rodney was warned many months ago to cool it. He decided he knew better.

The rules aren't ambiguous. They are known by all players, acknowledged and agreed to, in writing, before the first ball is struck in all of CSI's events. Copies of these published rules are contained somewhere in this thread if you're interested. Don't take this last paragraph lightly. No one can claim ignorance, like Rodney attempted to do, and retain any shred of credibility. It just doesn't work that way. Rodney (and others apparently-so, he's not being singled out) is just learning that, those that play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Your point is well taken. But I feel that if we are going to make demands on the players then we as the public have a right to also make demands on the league, association, and the owners. You say there are rules but why are some given a pass and not others. What is the criteria and is there any way that there can be justice served.
Now I know as to myself. You can scream at me, scream at my friends, scream at the rail, accuse me of sharking, etc. it don't bother me none especially if Im profiting. But you insult my wife, family, my heritage, then YOURE DONE!
But that is me. I think I want to be ensured in the professional field players are judged fairly. I come from the teaching if you cant do the time don't do the crime. But I also learned the importance of forgiveness and rehabilitation.

 

[NYC cue dude]

Your point is well taken. But I feel that if we are going to make demands on the players then we as the public have a right to also make demands on the league, association, and the owners. You say there are rules but why are some given a pass and not others. What is the criteria and is there any way that there can be justice served.
Now I know as to myself. You can scream at me, scream at my friends, scream at the rail, accuse me of sharking, etc. it don't bother me none especially if Im profiting. But you insult my wife, family, my heritage, then YOURE DONE!
But that is me. I think I want to be ensured in the professional field players are judged fairly. I come from the teaching if you cant do the time don't do the crime. But I also learned the importance of forgiveness and rehabilitation.

You keep insisting, through innuendo, that this is, or should be, a labor issue (in the traditional sense). Management/ownership, in this case is CSI, and they retain, unreservedly, the right to work with any independent contractor they choose to. It incumbent upon the players to unionize if they are dissatisfied with how ownership runs their events. Of course, players do have a union. But don't blame Mark for the failures of the union. Again, historically, player unions have always been impotent because the players themselves have no unity and are busy looking our for themselves.

It sounds like your beef should be redirected. You keep insisting this should be a labor issue. Have the players take it up with their union.

 

[yobagua]

You keep insisting, through innuendo, that this is, or should be, a labor issue (in the traditional sense). Management/ownership, in this case is CSI, and they retain, unreservedly, the right to work with any independent contractor they choose to. It incumbent upon the players to unionize if they are dissatisfied with how ownership runs their events. Of course, players do have a union. But don't blame Mark for the failures of the union. Again, historically, player unions have always been impotent because the players themselves have no unity and are busy looking our for themselves.

It sounds like your beef should be redirected. You keep insisting this should be a labor issue. Have the players take it up with their union.

Nah not a "labor" issue but a professional one. I would like to know from Mark Griffin can Rodney ever get back in the good graces of CSI? Or is it personal?. You say its not according to rules. But others have broken the rules and seem to not have been punished so harshly. So can there be a professional resolution short of groveling?

 

[Jaden]

Yeah...

It's a catch 22. The players are fighting over scraps while incurring serious expenses. Some feel the need to resort to unscrupilous things. Bye bye sponsors.

I've said this before... It's the horse before the cart theory. The product - the pros - too many are polluted. What Griffin and others are doing to inhibit corruption and disgrace, I applaud.

Cull out the horsecrap and THEN there's a product that sponsors will back. Tell the consumer how John Doe Pro was raised. Give us a connection and a reason to root for our favorite. Then, the marketing $$$'s follow and will enable more butts in the seats - butts that also buy product.

Horse first. $$ later.

I was just writing in another thread regarding sponsorships.

When a company sponsors someone, they give that person a fiduciary role in their company. The become liable for the actions and words of that person to an extent.

Poor behavior and the fiduciary role sponsored players are filling could be a reason that bigger companies who worry more about liability, etc... are not willing to sponsor pool with so little potential for return on their investment.

Jaden

 

[RBC]

All good ideas! But have you ever given the thought that if you ever did "develop enough talent to play at a professional level", you might have spent all your time developing your stroke, playing precise position, competing on a tier 1 level, etc instead of business, money management, and developing a "fan base"?
It is rare that athletes can do both well.
Pretty much every successful public sport professional has managed to get it done.
They need to be taught. Guys like you and Mark Griffin can probably help in that direction. Just as Magic Johnson has given his career to doing so developing young talent as well as their politics and business acumen. And Magic did many, many mistakes himself as a young player.
Tell me, do you know that I haven't? or that Mark hasn't?
The trouble is that you think if you didn't read it here then it must not have happened. I can personally assure you that what you read here is less than 1% of what has actually taken place. Here'st he question to ask yourself. When a promoter puts his own money at risk, and I mean a lot of it and at high risk, is he doing it because he doesn't like the players? Or does he have it out for them? No, he does it because he wants to use some of his good fortune to help pool and it's players. And then, he gets treated like he is the enemy.

NASCAR guys have a whole company behind them. Pool players are virtually on their own when they hit the pro circuit.
They all started where pool is or has been. But, they made it better for themselves. Pool, in spite of many good people who have tried, hasn't been able to help itself.
I myself have agents that represent me in all areas. I have at least 12 agents that speak for me on the west coast and 3 in the east. I never have to negotiate money, meals, or housing. If I am wrong in my thinking my agents explain to me what the deall is. If they are wrong my reps tell them why. If Im not getting what I think Im worth my people explain to me what the production costs are and the producers are willing to make it up to me on a future venue. All along the way my hand has been held guiding me to make financial decisions. I was too naïve and uninformed to make a correct decision. They protected me from myself but also protected me against scrupulous individuals In the business who would not think twice about slicing, dicing, the talent and running off with all the profits.
Yes, and all those people helping you are getting paid to do so. The reason there is money for that is because you are part of a marketable product. Professional pool just isn't marketable in it's current state. It all starts with creating a product that people will want to watch and/or follow. Then you can have fans, and that is where all the money comes from.
Players spend their life perfecting their performance. Its usually alone without any real help other than players themselves. Many have never read a book in their life but they can draw whitey real good.
I don't think those of us who come to the defense of the player is because of some kind of sycophantic allegiance but more that we identify with them in their struggle and dedication to the game that we would like to have become masters of in another life.
We refrain from judging because we know the road it took to where it got them and understand it is the PLAYER that makes the game what it is and hope that they will mature not only in their expertise but knowledge of their total responsibility.

I don't know you, and you don't know me. From your comments, I don't get the feeling that you have been involved with much of this thing we call Professional pool. I have, and I think that if you had then you would have a little different outlook. Things usually aren't the same as they seem on the surface.


Respectfully

Royce Bunnell

 

[JAM]

Nah not a "labor" issue but a professional one. I would like to know from Mark Griffin can Rodney ever get back in the good graces of CSI? Or is it personal?. You say its not according to rules. But others have broken the rules and seem to not have been punished so harshly. So can there be a professional resolution short of groveling?

I think the matter between Rodney and Mark Griffin has turned into a personal matter between them.

Rodney is obviously upset and feels slighted by Mark, and Mark Griffin is also upset because he feels disrespected. In fact, both of them feel that the other has shown disrespect, and both of them have pride and self-respect.

In this regard, the consequences of this will harm Rodney more than Mark, sad to say.

Anybody who knows Rodney is well aware that he is a gentle soul, but he feels very strongly about his stance in this matter.

The celebrity of the American pool professional is a tough one. Walk into a pool happening, and these pros are stars and treated as such, getting their photos taken, autographs asked for, et cetera. Outside of the pool happening, nobody knows who the pool celebrity is. This reality is a hard pill to swallow for the American pool professional.

I actually feel bad for both sides of this equation. They say time heals all wounds. Maybe some time needs to transpire and the two sides and enter into a colloquy once emotions have calmed.

 

[NYC cue dude]

Nah not a "labor" issue but a professional one. I would like to know from Mark Griffin can Rodney ever get back in the good graces of CSI? Or is it personal?. You say its not according to rules. But others have broken the rules and seem to not have been punished so harshly. So can there be a professional resolution short of groveling?

Let me be clear, I'm in no way speaking for Mark or CSI. It is my understanding that Rodney is t the only one banned. So, by default, it's not personal. But, Rodney's scorched earth policy far surpassed all the other players' indiscretions.

Rodney's compulsive, consistent actions got him into this mess. You can't believe that mere words will get him out, nor should it.

 

[RBC]

Nah not a "labor" issue but a professional one. I would like to know from Mark Griffin can Rodney ever get back in the good graces of CSI? Or is it personal?. You say its not according to rules. But others have broken the rules and seem to not have been punished so harshly. So can there be a professional resolution short of groveling?

yobagua, or whatever your name is (I would address you by your name if you would use it as a signature at the end of your posts)

I'm not even sure that you have the most basic understanding of who is responsible for what tournaments. You have mentioned many things done by many players, that not only are in the past, but weren't even at an event promoted by CSI.

When a promoter puts up his own $100k to put on an event and takes all the risks involved. He has the right to pick and choose any or all players he wants to. Yes, the public has a right to like it or not. If they don't, then they don't attend his events. They certainly don't tell him how to spend his money. Of course, if you think you should be able to tell him how to spend his money, then I would have the right to tell you to put up $25,000 in added money to the SBE. Of course, that wouldn't have anything to do with CSI or Mark Griffin because he doesn't have anything to do with putting on that event.

Royce Bunnell

 

[yobagua]

I don't know you, and you don't know me. From your comments, I don't get the feeling that you have been involved with much of this thing we call Professional pool. I have, and I think that if you had then you would have a little different outlook. Things usually aren't the same as they seem on the surface.


Respectfully

Royce Bunnell

Actually I was saying that you probably are a good example or inspiration of what professional players can learn from. Im sorry you took it as me saying you didn't.
But youre right Im not in professional pool. I guess according to you I don't have the right to to speak my opinions on this forum and you do.
No you don't know me.