Ron V aiming system video and diagrams

LAMas said:
For a 1 degree shot, you might need to start around .010" to the side of the center of the CB while aiming around .010" to the side of the OB and pivot by moving your hip until the tip of the cue is moved .010" back to the center of the CB.

For a 0 degree shot, start at the center of the CB while aiming at the center of the OB.....
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I see, ok. Would that mean then that for a 2 degree shot you'd start at .020" offcenter and then pivot back to center? And, by extension, for a 25 degree shot start at .25" offcenter and pivot back to center?

Just trying to get things straight in my head. I've been playing around with the system as I understand it and some shots are going well while others aren't.

SpiderWebComm: Does the method that LAMas described apply to the system you use as well?
 
why aiming systems help

JoeyA said:
One day soon I will be starting a thread about aiming systems and how they work and how they help some people become better players.
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This has been discussed quite a bit already, but it might be nice to see some fresh ideas. FYI, see the answers to the 2nd question here:


I have some good highlights from previous discussions on this topic.

Regards,
Dave
 
cigjonser said:
I see, ok. Would that mean then that for a 2 degree shot you'd start at .020" offcenter and then pivot back to center? And, by extension, for a 25 degree shot start at .25" offcenter and pivot back to center?

Just trying to get things straight in my head. I've been playing around with the system as I understand it and some shots are going well while others aren't.

SpiderWebComm: Does the method that LAMas described apply to the system you use as well?
Click to expand...

no, although that doesn't mean it doesn't work.
 
Hopefully Diplomatic

I am all for systems. I know many ( MANY) I use some and teach some. I prefer to teach by feel with a little math thrown in, trying to use the math as a check valve and bring out the natural in a player thru different methods of instruction that work very well. As the player develops consistent mechanics and stroke we add more brain power. I have always been a student of the game and still learning. I learn from AzBilliards even though I know it all (Snicker/joke ). I can run a few racks of straight pool, a few in 9 ball, high run in 3 cushion is 13. I like to think I know aiming and cueball control to some extent
I have read thru these threads and respect those who were able to debate and conduct themselves as gentlemen. I tried this aiming system out for about an hour just to see what all the noise was about It did work to some extent, on certain shots and strokes it did'nt, especially kill stroke with inside juice,1,2,3 rails and out with running english.I am not saying it doesnt work with these strokes it didn't work for me.
If I remember correctly the system was designed because the cue was hitting off the chest so the hip movement was created to clear the cue.
Most people will align more to a full hit rather than 1/2, 1/4,1/8 ball etc. etc. When you are too full in alignment your brain knows it and the result is to screwdriver the cue which is a chest burner. The opposite alignment and your stick is now thrown to the outside of your body like you are ready to do a jumping jack. All results of poor alignment from the beginning. Your brain knows what you are trying to accomplish yet you try to fool it
YOU ARE NOT SMARTER THAN YOUR BRAIN

I am a fan of soild and steady mechanics ( A Must ) proper alignment on the first drop, coming down into the shot from the top,in alignment for any type of stroke or english to be applied from the beginning to end. If you are not in alignment stand up and start over.
I am not a fan of dropping in on one line then trying to calculate how much hip movement,( now it becomes side alignment ) with 8:00 extreme outside punch at 3 power to bring the cueball cross table 2 rails and up. I prefer to have that out of my head on my initial drop, I dont want to have to make another calculation I just want to execute at that point

The initial thread is about an aiming system. I do enjoy the discussions on pivot and all else involved by those who are diplomatic.
I am not saying this aiming system does not work, maybe one hour was not enough time, if so I am open to suggestions and will give it another try just for curiosity and to learn from others
 
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LAMas said:
For a 1 degree shot, you might need to start around .010" to the side of the center of the CB while aiming around .010" to the side of the OB and pivot by moving your hip until the tip of the cue is moved .010" back to the center of the CB.

For a 0 degree shot, start at the center of the CB while aiming at the center of the OB.....
Click to expand...

i'm on my phone so I never read this completely. my guess is lamas was joking.
 
PJ, back in character

PJ.

For a brief spell I was wondering if you were ill but I see you are back to being your same old self. Act like a jerk and you get it back at you. I have proven my ability to set up tests to several different corporations, the local nuke, the US Army, and to the NRC. Do you really think I give a crap what you think?

I have already done the testing practical with the limited information given. I have shared my findings with a few respected members of the forum while admitting that all the testing indicated was possibilities since I didn't have adequate information to base testing on.

As a general statement it appears pivot systems could work. Without full information about any of them it is impossible for me to test if any do work.

Hu


Patrick Johnson said:
I don't think you know how to test this, but I'll let you prove me wrong.

Just for you, I just went to my table and did a simple test that proves there's no difference in pivoting with or without your hips. But I didn't just try to make shots, which is what you seem to want me to do - I actually tested it.

It was very simple and didn't require any special equipment - I'll tell you how I did it as soon as you do the same thing and tell me how you did it - to show that you really know how to test something and not just "try it out".

pj
chgo
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SpiderWebComm said:
no, although that doesn't mean it doesn't work.
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Ok. If you don't mind answering questions, what is the method involved for pocketing cuts less than, say, 10 degrees according to the system you use?
 
Colin Colenso said:
I think most of the whys here, are being asked because the how's are not fully explained.
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The how's have been fully explained:

"Just pivot and shoot and the ball goes in the hole."
​
You must not have read all of the 500+ messages. I'm sure this detailed explanation of how was provided somewhere in this thread. :p

Regards,
Dave
 
SpiderWebComm said:
Unknownpro, who are you? What's your name? It's cool to be harsh, but everyone knows everyone here and you're incognito. Stand by your comments with your name, is all I ask.

With all due respect, since you're a tour player... next time you're at an event, pull Bustamante aside and discuss CTE. You might learn something.

I want to take you more seriously, but with a Ron Paul avatar, it's REAAALLY tough. :) I could ignore the Ron Paul manifesto at least if I knew who you were.
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I try not to watch Busty play very much. He is the only guy that seems to be lining up funny as hell. But I've seen no pattern to it. I think he's just screwing with people's heads, keeping the cue out of his line of sight. He doesn't go through the shot anywhere near his cue stick line.

Ron Paul has never voted for a tax increase and authored legislation to allow competing currency to end the monopoly of the federal reserve counterfeiters. Enjoy your 1 trillion dollar bailout of Wall Street and the coming massive inflation. Luckily, since Dr. Paul wrote the legislation in the 80's you can buy gold and silver coins again from the US mint to protect yourself, even though they are being rationed because of the high demand.
 
dr_dave said:
This has been discussed quite a bit already, but it might be nice to see some fresh ideas.
Regards,
Dave
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Dave, since "how aiming systems work" has already been discussed a bit already, you are still invited to comment on any "fresh ideas" if any, that you see.

JoeyA
 
aiming articles

JoeyA said:
Dave, since "how aiming systems work" has already been discussed a bit already, you are still invited to comment on any "fresh ideas" if any, that you see.
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Thank you for the invitation, but I'm all out of fresh ideas for now.

FYI, My November BD article will have a couple of nice diagrams in it. When the article comes out, I'll post it for discussion. I also have my December article drafted already. It will complete my 3-part series on aiming. My October article is already out. The others will be posted as soon as they come out in print. They can be found here:


BTW, Bob Jewett has written many articles about aiming over the years. Links to all of them can be found here:


Regards,
Dave
 
ShootingArts said:
Colin,

We barely got started on the "how" before the thread was derailed. The OP said there was more to come and perhaps could have added detail to further explain how things worked. However those that write best have an advantage on the internet, it doesn't really matter if they are right or wrong or just lacking in adequate information so the OP left a losing battle.

I haven't tested enough to say for certain but I doubt I can make the system work with the information available in this thread either. However we have choked off the flow of additional information. As PJ and I now seem to agree, lets get the how out in the how threads and once we have taken the how as far as possible then ask the why separately. Working with partial information is like banging our heads against a brick wall. I have pretty strong proof that pivot systems in general can work. I still don't have adequate information as to how any of them work to decide their value for myself. We need a full framework on the table before we can make a good faith effort to analyze it.

Hu

PS: I also agree that the threads started to dig into the "why" should be allowed to dig as long as they like without folks saying it doesn't matter. For the purpose of that thread it does matter and that is sufficient.
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Hu,
To be honest I'm not really sure how you are imagining threads to develop. Should I have not posted evidence (e.g. the close ups from the animation) to show it wasn't a correct explanation?

Should Patrick not have posted his line diagrams based on a fixed bridge pivot point, which was how the original video explained the 'how' of the system?

I've been fishing for a better explanation of HOW since the beginning of the thread, tip-toeing around the flames all the way.:p

If not for a few posters persistently questioning the recommended HOWS in this thread, I think there would be another 200 readers of this forum thinking that the 90/90 and similar pivot systems can pivot at somewhere other than the bridge point, even if the bridge point doesn't move. And that such a system had been proved in this thread.

Letting that go would be like letting people post that 1+1=3 in a math forum without rebuttal.

Colin
 
Spiderwebcomm

This post is for spiderwebcomm.
I watch your videos and i was wondering do you
think that if you put your cue on a tripod say somthing
like a gun goes on, would you get the same results
as with your bridge hand.
 
SpiderWebComm said:
Colin:

I know what you're doing wrong without even seeing you. Hopefully if I make it to DCC, I'm going to get you shit-faced... and then I'm going to show you.... and then you're going to wake up the next afternoon thinking, "WTF did he say again?":thumbup:

Taking time off of this thread has helped my blood pressure tremendously. The discussion in this thread cannot be easily proven on a drafting board with a ruler and compass. The bridge is not an infinitely small point.

It would be nice if all parties who were heated (including me), interested or entertained in this thread would meet at DCC in the AZB room for a friendly little demonstration. IN-PERSON discussions are the nuts, IMO. Nothing like having a table and cue available with people staring at you from a foot away, know what I mean? I'm not worried about the bet anymore, this is totally friendly--- for everyone's education and enlightenment.... fun time, no? I'll bring my laptop and we'll stream it to AZB just so everyone who couldn't make it could sweat the fun-loving, brotherly discussion.

I love you guys.

Cheers, mate!
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Dave,
Good to see you found your happy pills, but you could have shared them around :grin:

I don't think I can make the DCC this January.:frown: Perhaps 2010.

I'd still like to see you make this pivot from a fixed overhead camera so I can see what's going on with your bridge and pivot.

Cheers,
Colin
 
My Dad taught me...

Never discuss religion, politics, money, or aiming systems.

I wrote a haiku on the matter at hand:

Polarized beliefs
Frustration creeps to the fore
Pool gods smile with glee
 
The bridge is not an infinitely small point.
Click to expand...

I understand the point you're trying to make - that the pivot point can move sideways a little in the bridge as the cue pivots (movement toward centerball is the direction that helps), and that this movement is greatest when you move your hip. But there's a major problem with this explanation: it isn't physically feasible. I'm sure you'll reject this statement, and that's fine with me. I'm not trying to get your goat with it, just pointing it out for others who might be interested.

Simple math shows that, for the 59-inch shot you demonstrated on video (and assuming a 9-inch bridge), your pivot point would have to shift 3/8 inch sideways (toward centerball) to change the aim line enough to get a thin cut on the OB. To get a half ball hit your pivot point would have to move more than 1/2 inch sideways.

That's way more pivot shift than you can feasibly claim to be happening inside your bridge loop. Furthermore, when I tried pivoting (with and without hip movement) I got no difference in the aim line and saw no visible difference in where the stick pivoted.

With all due respect, I just don't see this big pivot shift happening in real life. I think you need another explanation.

And once again, I'm not saying the system doesn't work for you; I'm saying this can't be the way it does it.

pj
chgo
 
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cookie man said:
It works exactly how Dave showed on his video. Others have said the same. Screw the math.
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Well, Dave didn't show how it worked. He just showed that it did for him.

pj
chgo
 
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Without getting into the muck, let me state this. As I posted before, what I noticed was this... that on several angles/shots, there are different aiming points on the cue ball other than 90/90 and the half ball hit. You can take the system as it is, and aim at those fractional points with the cue at the edge of the cue ball, then pivot. Or you can learn to "see" the fractional ball images and aim/shoot from center ball with no pivot needed. It really does come back to being a variation of the fractional system from what I have seen so far in my own experimentation.
I will call Ron soon to find out the meat and potatoes from the man himself. I want to learn the adjustments and see how close I am so far.
Arguing about pivot points is meaningless. Has no bearing on the system as to "where" the cue pivots from or at. Who cares, it is a non issue.
What does matter is just flat out recognizing the angle and picking a predestined aiming point on the cue ball.
Chuck
 
unknownpro said:
I try not to watch Busty play very much. He is the only guy that seems to be lining up funny as hell. But I've seen no pattern to it. I think he's just screwing with people's heads, keeping the cue out of his line of sight. He doesn't go through the shot anywhere near his cue stick line.

Ron Paul has never voted for a tax increase and authored legislation to allow competing currency to end the monopoly of the federal reserve counterfeiters. Enjoy your 1 trillion dollar bailout of Wall Street and the coming massive inflation. Luckily, since Dr. Paul wrote the legislation in the 80's you can buy gold and silver coins again from the US mint to protect yourself, even though they are being rationed because of the high demand.
Click to expand...

Busty isn't playing with anyone's head - c'mon now - that's a crazy statement.... his tip is always left of the CTE line and with every stroke he pivots closer to CB center. There's a science behind his aiming that you don't want to learn because you're close minded.

He should put on clown nose and REALLY play with people's heads.
If you want to learn, ask him. If I were you, I'd start paying attention.

What's your name, you dodged the question. I'm Dave Segal. Who are you, Pool Batman? You're probably not even a pro.
 
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