Ron V aiming system video and diagrams

SpiderWebComm said:
lmao cheat? The cue moves in my bridge, but it is a conventional resting point. You're mis-reading the parameters of the bet, bluepepper. Cheat? There's no such thing. Either you're within the parameters of the bet or you're not. My bridge is tight, I'm not doing anything funny. Like I said, the movement is SOOOO slight in my bridge it's nearly invisible. There has to be some movement, of course, since the bridge isn't the pivot point (my argument in the first place)--- you understand that, right Blue? That's the basis of the bet.

There's gonna be a bet, there won't be apologies to me or from him, and we're gonna see "somebody" go bye-bye.
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You've been arguing with Patrick, me and others over pivot systems for quite some time. Never until this new video did you state that the bridge isn't your pivot point. When I discussed different bridge pivot points in a prior thread, you said the pivot point didn't matter as long as it was beyond about 9 inches. You didn't say, "No, the pivot point is way back on the cue, Blue." You went along with the discussion which assumed a bridge pivot. Everyone assumed a bridge pivot. It was a given.
 
Wow

WOW this has really ramped up since I last checked. 5K and a get out of town match. I love it. I'm going to make a crown of Tin Foil and send it to the loser as a going away gift.

Nick
 
Colin Colenso said:
The center of the CB is a point. There is only one line from any single fixed bridge point to this point.

Finding multiple lines to center from a fixed point would get you a nobel prize.

I doubt this will be settled to anyone's mutual satisfaction. Shoot the vid and you'll see the bridge pivot point moves laterally (even if the base doesn't) and then it will become a matter of arguing over definitions of what the bet actually was.

Colin
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yeah, this is a bad bet. these two guys speak a different language with the same words. I see big problems and arguments with this deal.

Recommendation: forget this bet
 
bluepepper said:
You've been arguing with Patrick, me and others over pivot systems for quite some time. Never until this new video did you state that the bridge isn't your pivot point. When I discussed different bridge pivot points in a prior thread, you said the pivot point didn't matter as long as it was beyond about 9 inches. You didn't say, "No, the pivot point is way back on the cue, Blue." You went along with the discussion which assumed a bridge pivot. Everyone assumed a bridge pivot. It was a given.
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I've never had the impression that Dave was endorsing a bridge pivot. Perhaps that's because I have had more discussions with him on these methods.

But I'm not clear on the way Dave is describing the nature of the pivot and I'm not sure he is exactly clear either. Or it could be that his terminology is not quite right or not clear enough.

Anyway, Dave is trying to explain how to use this system best he can and I appreciate that. It's just a shame that some animosity has crept into the deciphering of this system as we try to develop agreed upon points of reference and hence a clearer understanding.

Colin - Hoping things can be clarified in a peaceful manner.:shocked2:
 
Skeezicks said:
yeah, this is a bad bet. these two guys speak a different language with the same words. I see big problems and arguments with this deal.

Recommendation: forget this bet
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I agree. What is meant by no part of the bridge hand moving? It can be interpreted as the bones staying still while the cue pushes the flesh around, or as not even allowing the flesh to move. Sorry that sounded gory. Bad bet no matter how you look at it. Just drop it guys.
 
bluepepper said:
I agree. What is meant by no part of the bridge hand moving? It can be interpreted as the bones staying still while the cue pushes the flesh around, or as not even allowing the flesh to move. Sorry that sounded gory. Bad bet no matter how you look at it. Just drop it guys.
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I think Dave won this bet!!:D

It's pretty easy to see in the video why...but in PJ mind...he was thinking math and geometry. PJ just didn't understand the technique. I'm sure he will now.

1) PJ was arguing over the fact that BH pivoting on the bridge is Ron Technique (not true). Without moving your body...if you move your back hand to pivot on the bridge...you will miss as shown by Dave example in the Video.

2) Dave has also shown in the video that it's not the case because Movement of the hip (Body) will create a different pivoting point on the "Same" bridge...so bridge hand does not have to move. When you pivot with your body instead of using just your hand (Without moving body), the pivot will have a different pivot point that will line up the shot perfectly.

3) Whether PJ understood that or not is a minute point as he claimed the pivot technique from Ron is still using the same pivot point as just moving your back hand. But again in the video that's clearly not the case.

Honestly guys..an apology should be given by the loser...no need for this thing to get Ugly...we are all here to learn and make the pool community a better place. Hopefully what we come up with here can help the next Pool playing generation plays better pool and give move people more interested in this game. Why hide the secret? There's no money in this game anymore.

PJ...which all systems or anything..I think everybody agreed that "Feel" is still and will always be part of the learning curve as we are all Human Being...not Robot!! So I don't understand why you kept pushing this point when it's obvious with everything we do. Any system is just that...a set of processes designed by human to help you learn faster or meet whatever your objectives you set.

so there you have it...hope this explain to everyone why Ron's system works. I think Ron's mentioned this in his intro video..but if you new to the system...you might not get it. Reality is not as precise as math...you need to consider all elements and I'm sure PJ just didn't factor in the different that a BH movement vs Body (Hip) movement has on the line of aim.

Again...I like this aiming technique but can someone teach or built a system that can incorporate aiming and shape at the same time? Applying Clock with this aiming system has potential but there are still flaws as it just too complex.

Regards,
Duc.
 
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Colin Colenso said:
The center of the CB is a point. There is only one line from any single fixed bridge point to this point.

Finding multiple lines to center from a fixed point would get you a nobel prize.

I doubt this will be settled to anyone's mutual satisfaction. Shoot the vid and you'll see the bridge pivot point moves laterally (even if the base doesn't) and then it will become a matter of arguing over definitions of what the bet actually was.

Colin
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Colin, I think you still don't get it. It's not a fixed point...it's not like pivoting a line on a dot to another dot. You're talking about using too different part of the body to pivot..so how can the pivot point be the same place? The reason why Ron come up with a system to use his body to pivot..instead of changing the bridge hand is because..the body movement help line up the shot perfectly. There are some shots where the Back Hand pivot will not work because it hit your body. That's why you move the body...when you move the body..your are no longer using the back hand to pivot. Bridge doesn't move..just your line of aim :).

Back hand pivot still works for some shots..but compensation is required for distance and there's shot where you can't use BH pivot. I think Clearlu was trying to said..after 2 diamond you can use a different system...instead of 90,90..you doing 90 to Center for the same shot if the distance is longer than 2 diamonds to compensate but it seem no one was listening.

Hope this helps...Btw..I'm still learning and always will.

Regards,
Duc.
 
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Cuemaster98 said:
2) Dave has also shown in the video that it's not the case because Movement of the hip (Body) will create a different pivoting point on the "Same" bridge...so bridge hand does not have to move. When you pivot with your body instead of using just your hand (Without moving body), the pivot will have a different pivot point that will line up the shot perfectly.


Regards,
Duc.
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Duc,

I think you ought to think about that a little more deeply.

If the bridge point does not move, then it forms a point. A line from this point to the center of the CB is constant. Doesn't matter whether you shift your hip, your hand or change your shoes. You can't make two lines from the same two points.

You can only change that line by moving the bridge point.

Colin
 
Cuemaster98 said:
Colin, I think you still don't get it. It's not a fixed point...it's not like pivoting a line on a dot to another dot. You're talking about using too different part of the body to pivot..so how can the pivot point be the same place? The reason why Ron come up with a system to use his body to pivot..instead of changing the bridge hand is because..the body movement help line up the shot perfectly. There are some shots where the Back Hand pivot will not work because it hit your body. That's why you move the body...when you move the body..your are no longer using the back hand to pivot. Bridge doesn't move..just your line of aim :).

Back hand pivot still works for some shots..but compensation is required for distance and there's shot where you can't use BH pivot. I think Clearlu was trying to said..after 2 diamond you can use a different system...instead of 90,90..you doing 90 to Center for the same shot if the distance is longer than 2 diamonds to compensate but it seem no one was listening.

Hope this helps...Btw..I'm still learning and always will.

Regards,
Duc.
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Duc,
You can change the line by pivoting from different points, but this will move the bridge. The movement may be hard to notice but it must happen.

Not meaning to argue by the fallacy of claim to authority but I have done hundreds of hours investigating pivoting methods for both BHE and for these pivot aiming systems. If the pivot point is somewhere other than the bridge point, then the bridge point must move. That's simple geometry and I've seen nothing that indicates otherwise.

Colin
 
Does anyone know about what skill level PJ is? To be making a 5k bet, he must know something about pool. But then again I wonder what Dave is going to buy with Patrick's money.
 
This "system" cannot win. Patrick's simple diagram shows it will not work. Ghostball is the way you aim. Period. If you use english, you need a method of some kind to aim relative to the ghost ball position. Anything else is hogwash, imo.

Throw is calculated into your ghostball position. English determines your aim on that ghostball. My system is much simpler, and more universal, and addresses the key issue of what is a quality stroke. All center ball shots are similar requiring little of the stroke. Englished shots must be stroked properly to get the desired deflection and minimize undesired curve of the cueball. You can make the same shot going through a small range of different parts of the cueball with the same exact downtable aimpoint relative to the ghostball using a good stroke. Being able to stay in the correct range of english for a given shot allows a consistent aim and pocketing.

The OP's method of rotating to get behind the center of the cueball gives you an aim point right at the cueball with no down table reference. So to aim well you have to stare at the cueball. Not my preference.
 
Hi Colin,

That's the problem, theoritically the bridge point is exact based on your geometry but a pool cue on a hand bridge pivoting on your finger is not exact? How can it be..you have a pool cue on your bridge hand wrap by your fingers. The cue will never sit on an "Exact Point"..it will move as you stroke..how can you say the bridge point is exact in reality. It's sound it theory but again we are human not robot? Do you honesty think that as you stroke or pivot the cue is on the same bridge point?

I guess this is a similar to the "Feel" argument that PJ is debating about. Geometry is an exact system but in reality there a multitude of elements that Geometry do not account for such as type of hands...or even if the cue is straight or bent. Too many elements...you can't use geometry to compare to the real scenario unless you are able to accounts for these elements. No assumptions were made when PJ made this bet other than what was stated in his post #133. So I think Dave have met all requirements of the bet. I guess we can label all this as either an misunderstanding or just miscommunication but it seem pretty clear to me. Just grab a shaft and put it on your bridge...does the cue sit on the exact pivot point? Your don't have to move the bridge hand..there more than enough room for the pivot point to change as you move your BH or Body..creating different pivot points. The little difference can account for a different line of aim...so again Dave won this bet. Now if PJ said, the bridge hand needs to be "Exactly" or "Perfectly" still than that just not possible but from reading post #133 that clearly not the case. Basically, Dave shown in the video that the pivot point changes based on movement of different part of the body but the bridge hand doesn't. You can do all the Geometry you want but clearly the bridge hand does have multiple pivot points while it's fixed. PJ fault is his assumptions that the pivot point doesn't change and that there no difference in how the Pivot is done. Clearly Dave has shown that the pivot point does change depend on what you use to pivot (Hand vs Hip).

It's ironic how PJ argue about feel is part of all the aiming system yet..he stand firm on his math and geometry..without factoring "Feel" into his equation.

Regards,
Duc.

Colin Colenso said:
Duc,
You can change the line by pivoting from different points, but this will move the bridge. The movement may be hard to notice but it must happen.

Not meaning to argue by the fallacy of claim to authority but I have done hundreds of hours investigating pivoting methods for both BHE and for these pivot aiming systems. If the pivot point is somewhere other than the bridge point, then the bridge point must move. That's simple geometry and I've seen nothing that indicates otherwise.

Colin
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I'm actually in a better mood today. Big difference some sleep makes. Here's the dealio.....

Those who actually know me personally, know I already won this bet. I used to have a gambling problem and quit gambling with everything. When I step up like this, it's no longer a gamble....it's a formality. To everyone reading, I have 0% chance of losing. I even put in some calls to some people so I can get the entire $5k and walk with all of the money.

PJ hasn't posted yet-- but to show what kind of classy person I am-- all he has to do is admit the bridge does not have to be the pivot point when pivoting and I'll drop it. Unlike his pompous comment - I'll let him save face by not apologizing.

If, however, he wants to push this, I'm taking his money, everyone else's money who wants to bet with him including mr pro tour player unknownpro, he's getting banned, and there will be lots of emotions...but I'd have to go through the motions just to prove a point to some hard-headed people who haven't educated themselves with pool the way I have. With a crowd of people as a witness (and someone neutral holding the money and reffing), it would take me 3 minutes to win this bet.

So, there it is. I'll walk if PJ walks--- but I'm not walking unless he eats a little humble pie and admits the bridge doesn't have to be the pivot point, no apology required (I'll even make a close-up video of my bridge to show the move and post for all to see). That's all--- shake hands--- and walk. Otherwise, after my meetings today, two phone calls are getting made and I'm getting somewhere in 4 figures and I'm off to club baby seals.

Dave
 
bluepepper said:
I get it now Flex. It's just as complicated as the aiming systems I've come up with recently. But I see how it would work. Thanks.
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It may be complex, at least in the description part of it, but putting it to work is easier than trying to match up contact points, IMHO. And I have a lot of experience shooting at contact points. When I used this stuff for the first time the other day in my 9 ball matches, I had several "Eureka" moments.

Flex
 
SpiderWebComm said:
I'm actually in a better mood today. Big difference some sleep makes. Here's the dealio.....

Those who actually know me personally, know I already won this bet. I used to have a gambling problem and quit gambling with everything. When I step up like this, it's no longer a gamble....it's a formality. To everyone reading, I have 0% chance of losing. I even put in some calls to some people so I can get the entire $5k and walk with all of the money.

PJ hasn't posted yet-- but to show what kind of classy person I am-- all he has to do is admit the bridge does not have to be the pivot point when pivoting and I'll drop it. Unlike his pompous comment - I'll let him save face by not apologizing.

If, however, he wants to push this, I'm taking his money, everyone else's money who wants to bet with him including mr pro tour player unknownpro, he's getting banned, and there will be lots of emotions...but I'd have to go through the motions just to prove a point to some hard-headed people who haven't educated themselves with pool the way I have. With a crowd of people as a witness (and someone neutral holding the money and reffing), it would take me 3 minutes to win this bet.

So, there it is. I'll walk if PJ walks--- but I'm not walking unless he eats a little humble pie and admits the bridge doesn't have to be the pivot point, no apology required (I'll even make a close-up video of my bridge to show the move and post for all to see). That's all--- shake hands--- and walk. Otherwise, after my meetings today, two phone calls are getting made and I'm getting somewhere in 4 figures and I'm off to club baby seals.

Dave
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I'm not going anywhere. As we agreed, you have to:

...pivot your stick around a point that's somewhere other than at your bridge hand.
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That means not at your bridge hand.

pj
chgo
 
Colin Colenso said:
Duc,

I think you ought to think about that a little more deeply.

If the bridge point does not move, then it forms a point. A line from this point to the center of the CB is constant. Doesn't matter whether you shift your hip, your hand or change your shoes. You can't make two lines from the same two points.

You can only change that line by moving the bridge point.

Colin
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Colin,

The bridge doesn't move, the base doesn't move, the path in how the cue comes through the bridge changes (because, like i said, it has to since the pivot point changes). It forms a new "center". I'll post a video after work.


Dave
 
Patrick Johnson said:
I'm not going anywhere. As we agreed, you have to:



That means not at your bridge hand.

pj
chgo
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It's not pivoting at the bridge hand -- the cue still goes through the bridge hand. PJ, just look at my video. You couldn't even tell the difference between each shot... the movement is hardly noticeable. We can calm down and you admit the bridge doesn't have to be the pivot point, or we're pushing forward. You're not gonna word-smith me... Your bet was there was only 1 pivot solution-- and that was your bridge (as I demoed in the 1st shots in my video - and what you show in your diagram). I'm going to bridge in that exact spot, not move it, and provide a different solution.

You don't have to apologize - I know you got caught up with this, as I have sometimes in the past. All I want to hear is there isn't one pivot solution from a static bridge.... which is fact--- and I know you're all about fact, you pride yourself on it.
 
Cuemaster98 said:
Applying Clock with this aiming system has potential but there are still flaws as it just too complex.
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The further the cue ball is from the object ball the more adjustments will need to be made to accommodate the swerve that will kick in when shooting with english. No way around that. Even though the stroke speed is such on the shots that are close, up to about a diamond's distance between the cue ball and object ball, the swerve isn't that appreciable, when shot at the speeds for the shots in Buddy Halls Clock System video instruction. As soon as you stroke the ball harder or from farther away than in his video, squirt and swerve and throw really get involved. I think that the adjustments that need to be made to shoot with the clock system using "parallel" or other english will need to be figured in to this other system. After all, it's physics...

Flex
 
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