Deleted, quoted wrong post, see below.
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Ron V aiming system video and diagrams
- Thread starter cleary
- Start date
Patrick Johnson said:
You know, I just keep coming back to the original language PJ set out, and I'll be dam**d if I can understand how Spidey can pivot his stick around a point that's somewhere other than at his bridge hand. And I don't think Cleary's second videos prove anything.
Let's imagine using an open bridge - at least an open bridge can't be muscled from one side to the other to unfairly defeat PJ's requirement that the bridge hand and its parts not move. Now let's say Spidey pivots his cue using his hips. The cue remains in the "V" during this pivot, but must be drawn two inches rearward to clear the center of the cue ball. That is fine, but the cue did not pivot around a point that's somewhere other that at his bridge hand.
This pivot involves the simultaneous movement of both ends of the cue about an axis of rotation, or pivot point. Where is that axis of rotation? Hopefully we're not expected to believe it is somewhere other than within the "V" on the bridge hand?
So, read PJ's language again, and explain why he has lost this bet.
By the way, I am not trying to belittle RonV's aiming system which I know next to nothing about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cleary
"See, the whole bet was, "the bridge doesnt move" which is represented by the blue dot... "The bridge". It doesnt and shouldnt move. what should move is the white dot (the pivot point). The pivot point starts in the bridge and once you do your hip pivot, the pivot point moves backward with the cue due to the natural motion of moving your body.
See, if PJ would have went to the table AND TRIED THIS, he might have figured this out. But he didnt and it cost him $1000."
I do not accept Cleary's conclusion that the whole bet was "the bridge doesn't move", read PJ's words, above, and don't be misled by Cleary. Also, I must debunk? what I believe are misleading conclusions being drawn from his hastily contrived video. His video and language seem to imply that the pivot point changes location, which supposedly supports Spidey winning the bet. The fact is, however, his video demonstrates only that the point along the cuestick's longitudinal axis, about which rotation occurs, moves as we slide the cue through the Bridge "V". Duhhh!!! That doesn't even relate to the bet. The "pivot point" is within the bridge "V" and remains within the "V" of the bridge hand. (Cleary implies that the white dot is the pivot point, and that it moves freely and independently of the bridge "V". Sure the white dot moves in his video, but that's not the pivot point - though some here seem fooled by this.) I admit that the pivot point might move slightly due to compression of tissue in the bridge hand etc. but it remains essentially in the same location - within the spirit of the bet.
Sorry for the length of this post, but I'd say Pat wins the bet - JMHO!!
Bob Jewett said:
Yes, exactly. The cue can rotate and not have a fixed pivot point.
Do me a favor, go grab your cue... you dont even need a table.
Now make a closed bridge and move the butt back and forth. This is a fixed pivot position. Doesnt move.
Now, do the same thing, but stoke you're cue though your fingers like you would a shot. So your both stroking the cue and rotating the cue. If you do it slow you will see it better and may be a little easier.
But the point is, when you shift your body in the pivot, the axis is moving WHILE rotating.
Great animations, BUT...
Cleary,
Really appreciate those animations. Did you use Macromedia Flash?
Anyway, there is a problem with them as my zoomed in diagram shows.
The body pivot (lower image) did not rotate around as far so the CB line was at a lower angle. It was being hit with some english, not center CB.
In your software the CB will follow this lower path. In reality squirt would re-direct the CB along an almost identical path to a center ball hit. Unless it was a very low squirt cue or a grippy nap which allowed more swerve.
Anyway, that is why these two presumably different pivots seem to produce two CB angles.
And if the pivot was a few inches back behind the bridge fulcrum, the bridge would have to move.
Colin
cleary said:
Cleary,
Really appreciate those animations. Did you use Macromedia Flash?
Anyway, there is a problem with them as my zoomed in diagram shows.
The body pivot (lower image) did not rotate around as far so the CB line was at a lower angle. It was being hit with some english, not center CB.
In your software the CB will follow this lower path. In reality squirt would re-direct the CB along an almost identical path to a center ball hit. Unless it was a very low squirt cue or a grippy nap which allowed more swerve.
Anyway, that is why these two presumably different pivots seem to produce two CB angles.
And if the pivot was a few inches back behind the bridge fulcrum, the bridge would have to move.
Colin
Attachments
shankster8 said:
Dude, seriously, you can put a brick in the middle of the table, place your cue on it, rotate the cue to the left and pull it back at the same time. THE PIVOT POINT HAS MOVED BUT THE BRICK HAS NOT.
The white dot on the cue is a reference point. As if you put a piece of tape around your shaft where you first make your bridge. Now when you pivot, your body will rotate but your bridge WILL NOT MOVE. The cue will rotate and your bridge will be shorter. Not by much, but shorter. SO WHY SHORTER??? because the cue was rotating AND moving backward.
The reason pat cannot win this bet is because its clear (or should be) that you can rotate your body without moving your bridge. That was the bet. Dave proved it with his video that you can do it and I proved why its possible. Now if you cannot understand, then im sorry.
I disagree. I analyzed the pivots and the lines pixel by pixel and it is done incorrectly. As my diagram above shows.cleary said:
I do hope you will make a 'to scale' 59 inch separation version at true 90/90 and with both pivots exactly to center CB and without the bridge point moving.
I say it can't be done.
Colin
Colin Colenso said:
Colin,
They were made in Adobe After Effects. And thank you. But the point was not to show hitting center ball. Those are circles in a green rectangle which i honestly didnt measure out proportionally. The only point in making the animation was to show how the cue works with the bridge. It can move and rotate without the bridge moving
I will put together a new animation with a cuetable and 59" cue that starts with an 11" bridge. Hopefully will have the time to make this tomorrow. As for tonight, Im going to sleep.
Colin Colenso said:
Ouch... That's gonna leave a mark.
Dave when you turn the hip, the whole body moves...Which means head shoulders hip rear end and of course thti of the stick...The bridge hand does not ever move, maybe a little skin but never any palm movement...dr_dave said:
Hopefully you and I can get together oneday... If you ever get into NYC please give me a call...I don`t travel much these days had some health problems...
Best regards, Ron V
ps. I hope all this crazy stuff comes to an end...It was not my intention to create a monster...I thought Andrew Cleary did a great job on his video...
RonV said:
Ron, I have alot of respect for you for putting this out there.. that took guts..
there are alot of aiming system people who won't touch this forum with a 10 foot pole... and now you know why....
keep in mind there are over 20,000 members here.. and that's just the members...there are even more readers..
lots of people have seen this far more than the handfull of names that contributed a million posts each on this thread..
I'd bet if you check your PM box.. you will find alot of players going to the source for the info and avoiding this meat grinder at all costs...
don't let a few geeks with the slide rules tell you you don't know anything..
I have my own issues with pivot type systems as evidenced in my completely ignored thread on the subject LOL.
But I am NOT saying it doesn't work..
worry about the people this information helps..
and to hell the rest of them..
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When you address the cue ball the pivot point has to be 10 inches from the tip (or whatever your bridge length is) - that's the pivot point that matters. Sliding the stick through the bridge while you're getting there is meaningless smoke and mirrors. It doesn't change anything.
pj
chgo
That animation is meaningless nonsense and your video just showed you missing one shot and making another - it doesn't reveal a thing about how you did it.
Do you really want to make this into an "us vs. them" thing where "them" is "the smart people"? Who does that make you?
pj
chgo
You guys are all on crack. I want my money.
PIVOT POINT--- is defined as a POINT where the cue ROOOOTATES around (as in arc, circle, pi, get it?).
You guys keep trying to ignore the fact that given that definition, if you ROOOOOTATE from the bridge at 10" you miss the damn ball completely.
THEREFORE, with a static bridge and a body pivot....if I HIT the ball, the true pivot point has CHAAAAAAANGED. You can't SHARE a pivot point and have two different outcomes.
Did you guys graduate 8th grade? It's like this entire board is spinning on everything but the facts.
I WANT MY MONEY! Based on the parameters of the bet, this nitbag lost. I'm no PH.D., but one thing I do know is when I'm nutted-up in a debate.
Colin, your diagram is REALLY close, but it's not as severe an angle when shooting...the gap is not big in the bridge.
I SUGGEST PJ IS FORCED TO MEET WITH ME IN PERSON AND I'LL INVITE THE MATH CHAIRS OF TWO SEPARATE UNIVERSITIES TO JOIN US FOR THE FINAL JUDGEMENT......MR. KNOW IT ALLS. YOUR FUZZY LOGIC AIN'T HOLDING WATER.
Pay up, die clean in this bet, and save yourself the embarrassment. If PJ thinks he won THEN WHY IS HE NOT MEETING UP WITH ME TO SETTLE THE BET!!! HMMMMMMM!!!!!! He's scared to death. All the spinning and teaming up in the world can't save this guy.
PIVOT POINT--- is defined as a POINT where the cue ROOOOTATES around (as in arc, circle, pi, get it?).
You guys keep trying to ignore the fact that given that definition, if you ROOOOOTATE from the bridge at 10" you miss the damn ball completely.
THEREFORE, with a static bridge and a body pivot....if I HIT the ball, the true pivot point has CHAAAAAAANGED. You can't SHARE a pivot point and have two different outcomes.
Did you guys graduate 8th grade? It's like this entire board is spinning on everything but the facts.
I WANT MY MONEY! Based on the parameters of the bet, this nitbag lost. I'm no PH.D., but one thing I do know is when I'm nutted-up in a debate.
Colin, your diagram is REALLY close, but it's not as severe an angle when shooting...the gap is not big in the bridge.
I SUGGEST PJ IS FORCED TO MEET WITH ME IN PERSON AND I'LL INVITE THE MATH CHAIRS OF TWO SEPARATE UNIVERSITIES TO JOIN US FOR THE FINAL JUDGEMENT......MR. KNOW IT ALLS. YOUR FUZZY LOGIC AIN'T HOLDING WATER.
Pay up, die clean in this bet, and save yourself the embarrassment. If PJ thinks he won THEN WHY IS HE NOT MEETING UP WITH ME TO SETTLE THE BET!!! HMMMMMMM!!!!!! He's scared to death. All the spinning and teaming up in the world can't save this guy.
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APA7 said:Hay Patrick, U have a bunch of scientific explanations 4 a lot but we know U R no phd like UR buddies, so what makes U the expert?
Brian
Patrick could have a doctorate in religon or physics; that I don't know. My nephew has a doctorate in agriculture but you will never see him proclaim his doctorate to anyone except his closest friends and even then, only when asked. You must be very close to Patrick to know that type of information
But I can answer your question at least from a layman's perspective.
What makes Patrick an expert is that he has a very good physics background and understands many of the principles involved in physics, especially from an academic standpoint. He's intelligent and makes very intelligent observations. Sometimes I think he's a smartass but he's our smartass and Patrick makes incredible contributions to this pool forum and he helps laymen like myself understand what is really happening on the pool table. If you get past Patrick's style that irritates some of us you may be in for some interesting findings that could help your game.
Patrick applies his knowledge to the game of pool selflessly and apparently for his own personal intellectual curiosity. He generously defines what is happening on the pool table and there are not enough Patricks with or without doctorates out there that have the desire to test pool theories/myths etc that are willing to demonstrate and share their findings with this group on a regular basis.
In this thread, many people have made statements about pivot points and while I am far from an expert in most things, I believe that a pivot point is the point at which an item pivots. The arguments have insued because one side argues that the pivot point is at the bridge hand and the other party argues that the pivot point is the point on the cue shaft. I think the cue shaft changes pivot points in Spidey and Cleary's demonstration.
If you define the pivot point as the point on your bridge hand then you have a whole new perspective but since I am no expert, I'll just go back to trying out RonVitello's aiming system, Hal Houle's aiming system and Stan Shufett's aiming system-PRO ONE and see if I can pot a few more balls.
JoeyA
JoeyA said:Patrick could have a doctorate in religon or physics; that I don't know. My nephew has a doctorate in agriculture but you will never see him proclaim his doctorate to anyone except his closest friends and even then, only when asked. You must be very close to Patrick to know that type of information
But I can answer your question at least from a layman's perspective.
What makes Patrick an expert is that he has a very good physics background and understands many of the principles involved in physics, especially from an academic standpoint. He's intelligent and makes very intelligent observations. Sometimes I think he's a smartass but he's our smartass and Patrick makes incredible contributions to this pool forum and he helps laymen like myself understand what is really happening on the pool table. If you get past Patrick's style that irritates some of us you may be in for some interesting findings that could help your game.
Patrick applies his knowledge to the game of pool selflessly and apparently for his own personal intellectual curiosity. He generously defines what is happening on the pool table and there are not enough Patricks with or without doctorates out there that have the desire to test pool theories/myths etc that are willing to demonstrate and share their findings with this group on a regular basis.
In this thread, many people have made statements about pivot points and while I am far from an expert in most things, I believe that a pivot point is the point at which an item pivots. The arguments have insued because one side argues that the pivot point is at the bridge hand and the other party argues that the pivot point is the point on the cue shaft. I think the cue shaft changes pivot points in Spidey and Cleary's demonstration.
If you define the pivot point as the point on your bridge hand then you have a whole new perspective but since I am no expert, I'll just go back to trying out RonVitello's aiming system, Hal Houle's aiming system and Stan Shufett's aiming system-PRO ONE and see if I can pot a few more balls.
JoeyA
He should make an incredible contribution, as in a GRAND, to me asap.
Where are the moderators at??? You make a wrong U-Turn, they're all over ya. You bash through a building -- and there's nothing. Guys get banned on here for welching on $20 bets and I step for a grand and can't get paid and there's nothing.
I guess the only thing that's going to occur from me physically losing my mind over a non-paying loser is to drop it. The world knows what Mr. Patrick Johnson is REALLY made of. Not much.
He'll step into me again. Bet that. These pool geniuses have a ways to go, in my opinion.
Someone wake me up when he has my money....
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You haven't "stepped" until you actually prove something, Dave.
pj
chgo