Ruling the hit on a frozen cue ball...
- Thread starter pvc lou
- Start date
Pretty much any normal stroke that causes the object ball to move is a legal hit. You'd have to really go out of your way to foul in this situation.
Here's a video I have called
"Double hits, frozen balls & push shots"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rip8xwobksc
never read Atlas Shrugged, but loved The Fountainhead.
No Angle Requirement
The requirement to shoot at a "slight" angle to lesson the chance for a foul applies when the balls are close but not frozen.
Frozen ball shots only require that you make a normal stroke and do not leave the cue tip on the cue ball for a longer than normal amount of time.
The requirement to shoot at a "slight" angle to lesson the chance for a foul applies when the balls are close but not frozen.
Frozen ball shots only require that you make a normal stroke and do not leave the cue tip on the cue ball for a longer than normal amount of time.
http://home.bca-pool.com/displaycommon.cfm?an=1&subarticlenbr=54
Billiard Congress of America
World Standardized Rules
3.23 FOULS BY DOUBLE HITS
If the cue ball is touching the required object ball prior to the shot, the player may shoot toward it, providing that any normal stroke is employed. If the cue stick strikes the cue ball more than once on a shot, or if the cue stick is in contact with the cue ball when or after the cue ball contacts an object ball, the shot is a foul. (See Rule 2.20 for judging this kind of shot.) If a third ball is close by, care should be taken not to foul that ball under the first part of this rule.
http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_summary
World Pool-Billiard Association
World Standardized Rules
6. Fouls
6.7 Double Hit / Frozen Balls
If the cue stick contacts the cue ball more than once on a shot, the shot is a foul. If the cue ball is close to but not touching an object ball and the cue tip is still on the cue ball when the cue ball contacts that object ball, the shot is a foul. If the cue ball is very close to an object ball, and the shooter barely grazes that object ball on the shot, the shot is assumed not to violate the first paragraph of this rule, even though the tip is arguably still on the cue ball when ball-ball contact is made. However, if the cue ball is touching an object ball at the start of the shot, it is legal to shoot towards or partly into that ball (provided it is a legal target within the rules of the game) and if the object ball is moved by such a shot, it is considered to have been contacted by the cue ball. (Even though it may be legal to shoot towards such a touching or “frozen” ball, care must be taken not to violate the rules in the first paragraph if there are additional balls close by.) The cue ball is assumed not to be touching any ball unless it is declared touching by the referee or opponent. It is the shooter’s responsibility to get the declaration before the shot. Playing away from a frozen ball does not constitute having hit that ball unless specified in the rules of the game.
Billiard Congress of America
World Standardized Rules
3.23 FOULS BY DOUBLE HITS
If the cue ball is touching the required object ball prior to the shot, the player may shoot toward it, providing that any normal stroke is employed. If the cue stick strikes the cue ball more than once on a shot, or if the cue stick is in contact with the cue ball when or after the cue ball contacts an object ball, the shot is a foul. (See Rule 2.20 for judging this kind of shot.) If a third ball is close by, care should be taken not to foul that ball under the first part of this rule.
http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_summary
World Pool-Billiard Association
World Standardized Rules
6. Fouls
6.7 Double Hit / Frozen Balls
If the cue stick contacts the cue ball more than once on a shot, the shot is a foul. If the cue ball is close to but not touching an object ball and the cue tip is still on the cue ball when the cue ball contacts that object ball, the shot is a foul. If the cue ball is very close to an object ball, and the shooter barely grazes that object ball on the shot, the shot is assumed not to violate the first paragraph of this rule, even though the tip is arguably still on the cue ball when ball-ball contact is made. However, if the cue ball is touching an object ball at the start of the shot, it is legal to shoot towards or partly into that ball (provided it is a legal target within the rules of the game) and if the object ball is moved by such a shot, it is considered to have been contacted by the cue ball. (Even though it may be legal to shoot towards such a touching or “frozen” ball, care must be taken not to violate the rules in the first paragraph if there are additional balls close by.) The cue ball is assumed not to be touching any ball unless it is declared touching by the referee or opponent. It is the shooter’s responsibility to get the declaration before the shot. Playing away from a frozen ball does not constitute having hit that ball unless specified in the rules of the game.
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Here is another instructional video on the topic:
Regards,
Dave
I think this is only a local rule. I looked at the on-line rules for several leagues and could find no "minimum angle" rule. It is certainly not part of the WSR. My feeling: leagues that do not adopt the WSR should not be allowed to be members of the BCA.
The way Hopkins on a TV spot described it (and the way I've always done it), is to just use a normal strke "THRU THE CUEBALL". If they are frozen in a way that the rail or another object ball will cause a double hit I like to do a top "nudge" on the cueball and leave my opponent with the problem.:smile:
good stuff
dr_dave, mikepage,
Excellent explainations, videos and illustrations. I wish all pool players would view that kind of stuff...it would save an aweful lot of arguing. I had a guy...about 60 yrs old...that tried a shot of where the OB and the CB were not frozen, about 1/16" appart and his line was straight through the OB. He elevated his cue, took the shot, the CB traveled about 18" and stopped. The referee called it a foul (I called the referee cause I didn't want to argue...cause I knew it was coming, and that was the thing to do). The guy goes ballistic. He called the referee a few choice names with reference to his mother, his backround among other things. Then he turns to me and asks if I would have called that shot a foul...I said yes and the names started coming out again. It was amazing how many people in the room didn't know anything about pool...according to him. I was glad when half the people in the room came to me afterwards and agreed with the call.
I have watched your videos and I am impressed with the descriptions and illistrations you both have given. I have recommended these to other players in the hope of educating them...and it has worked for some of the newer players...most of the old guys know too much to watch.
Mr. Jewet, I agree with your thoughts about thr rules.
L8R...Ken
PS...I believe the VNEA had the rule about the 45 degree angle...unless they've changed that in recent years.
dr_dave, mikepage,
Excellent explainations, videos and illustrations. I wish all pool players would view that kind of stuff...it would save an aweful lot of arguing. I had a guy...about 60 yrs old...that tried a shot of where the OB and the CB were not frozen, about 1/16" appart and his line was straight through the OB. He elevated his cue, took the shot, the CB traveled about 18" and stopped. The referee called it a foul (I called the referee cause I didn't want to argue...cause I knew it was coming, and that was the thing to do). The guy goes ballistic. He called the referee a few choice names with reference to his mother, his backround among other things. Then he turns to me and asks if I would have called that shot a foul...I said yes and the names started coming out again. It was amazing how many people in the room didn't know anything about pool...according to him. I was glad when half the people in the room came to me afterwards and agreed with the call.
I have watched your videos and I am impressed with the descriptions and illistrations you both have given. I have recommended these to other players in the hope of educating them...and it has worked for some of the newer players...most of the old guys know too much to watch.
Mr. Jewet, I agree with your thoughts about thr rules.
L8R...Ken
PS...I believe the VNEA had the rule about the 45 degree angle...unless they've changed that in recent years.
It is illegal to push the cue ball, hit the cue ball twice, foul another ball, or foul any other way (e.g., jumping something off the table). It is illegal for the OB to move if it is not the next legal object ball, or for a seconary ball to move when the next ball and the a secondary ball are both frozen to the cue ball at the same time. [note: it is illegal to freeze the cue ball to an object ball when you have ball in hand.] Frozen balls must be called by your opponent or a ref (i.e., frozen together, frozen to a rail, etc.)
This description conforms with the BCA rules (www.bca-pool.com), BCA league rules (www.playbca.com), and the WPA (www.wpa-pool.com). Even in snooker, it is legal to hit a frozen ball as long as it is on.
-td
Could you provide a citation for this? My understanding is that in snooker you must always shoot away.
I believe this is the official rule:
Touching Ball: If the cue ball is touching another ball which is, or can be, on, the referee or player shall state "Touching Ball." Thereafter the striker must play away from it or it is a push stroke (foul). No penalty is incurred for thus playing away if (1) the ball is not on; the ball is on and the striker nominates such ball; or (3) the ball is on and the striker nominates, and first hits, another ball. [If the referee considers that a touching ball has moved through an agency other than the player, it is not a foul.]
Mark
Bca
The rule varies a bit from one league to another. The BCA rule is listed here by another poster. If frozen, it needs to be hit with a normal stroke. A year ago in Vegas, I had a frozen ball. The Ref was called, and I jacked the cue up slightly, {not quite a 45} to play shape for my next ball. Ref called a foul, because it was not a normal stroke. I disagreed with the call, but had to live with it. I did inquire with another ref later, and he agreed it was a foul. Lesson learned. If you're playing in a tourney, ask before it starts what the rule is.
The rule varies a bit from one league to another. The BCA rule is listed here by another poster. If frozen, it needs to be hit with a normal stroke. A year ago in Vegas, I had a frozen ball. The Ref was called, and I jacked the cue up slightly, {not quite a 45} to play shape for my next ball. Ref called a foul, because it was not a normal stroke. I disagreed with the call, but had to live with it. I did inquire with another ref later, and he agreed it was a foul. Lesson learned. If you're playing in a tourney, ask before it starts what the rule is.
See post #6. :smile:
Did either ref explain why it was a foul? shooting with an elevated cue into the cue ball isn't in itself a foul. The rules only say you MAY use a normal stroke. Hitting down on the cue ball is very similar to a Masse shot and is also a legal stroke.
Take into consideration that there are seasoned refs on the floor at the BCAPL and also refs that are there for the first time and not all too experienced in dealing with the players under these extreme conditions.
Refs can make mistakes also. And you have the right to ask for an explanation so you won't make the same mistake twice.
Take into consideration that there are seasoned refs on the floor at the BCAPL and also refs that are there for the first time and not all too experienced in dealing with the players under these extreme conditions.
Refs can make mistakes also. And you have the right to ask for an explanation so you won't make the same mistake twice.
I think it's very difficult (impossible?) to make a legal hit on a frozen CB/OB by hitting downward on the CB straight into the OB. It's not the same physically as stroking straight at the OB with a more level cue, because the backspin holds the CB in place, trapping it beneath the tip for a push, a double hit or a ferrule foul. If that was the shot, I think the ref was likely right.
pj
chgo
Good catch for noting the distinction between IBSF and american snooker rules. International rules require the shooter to play away from the on ball when frozen to the cue ball. In American snooker, there is no such "touching" rule. [compare bca official rules for Snooker and American Snooker]
[edit: I found a nice online comparison: http://departments.weber.edu/wildcatlanes/billiards/rules/Docs_SnookerVersions.html]
-td
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ne14tennis...Just so you know, there is no 'requirement' to elevate the cue, when the CB & OB are close together. The only requirement is that there is not a double hit. We teach how to play these close shots, with a level cue, in our Xpert Class pool schools. It's all about something called the "pierce factor"!
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
What if you're jacked up over a ball???