Safety Play - What's the right move here?

Dan White

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Is it me or is it slow around here?

You are playing to 100 and your opponent has 96. You have 70. It's your shot and you can't see anything around the 3 ball. What's the best move and why?

CueTable Help

 
Get up against the 3 with an intentional and make him take at least one intentional so he cannot get out with the balls on the table. I'd probably take two intentionals and then play safe off the 3.
 
Take 3 fouls and shoot a break shot. 2 and safe just means that your opponent has to break out just one ball.
 
i'm with dennis on this one, particularly because your opponent will have some potential scratch shots on what you will eventually leave him

dmgwalsh said:
Get up against the 3 with an intentional and make him take at least one intentional so he cannot get out with the balls on the table. I'd probably take two intentionals and then play safe off the 3.
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I don't see how you end up with the best of this mess. Relenting to the opening break shot doesn't guarantee leaving your opponent safe either. Not to mention now you have to get through an additional 18 balls before he gets 6 and out.

Honestly, you got the dice now, I'd go in on the 3, pocket speed, stroke it in and take your chances. Put it in your mind to make it and shoot. But that's just me. :)
 
Based on the diagram, it appears the three cannot be cut into the corner.

Against a world beater, you might take three fouls here, but even then, I might not. Taking one or two fouls here is certainly reasonable. Nonetheless, I have yet to read a full analysis of this approach, for you need to decide immediately which safe you will take afterward.

The best safe available will, in my view, be to send the cue ball to the long rail in a way that the fourteen in the side is blocked. This will give opponent a choice between the tough thirteen in the corner and the combo on the fourteen in the side shot from the rail, and even if they make their shot, they will need a break shot and two more balls after making it.

If you snooze, however, your opponent can make it harder for you to play the safety you want. You must take your foul(s) in a way that ensures that you don't end up frozen to the three at an angle that will either jack you up or give you an unfavorable angle for your safety.

Just blindly taking a foul or two shows lack of attention to detail and might cost you against an insightful opponent who can see what you're up to. If you aren't careul, the sequence might well develop in a way that you'd have no choice but to take three fouls.
 
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You must start with a foul here... but no need to take 3, imo. One foul forces your opponent into the next rack, which is strong.

The key here is a good tangent. A great player won't return the foul with the CB touching the 3 ball... he/she'd prob just put you right back where your diagram sits now, which is really tricky. If that's the case - roll your intentional to a still-hooked (not kissing), but steeper angle off the impeding ball.

I'd act frustrated and just touch the CB to a tangent that takes me naturally shy of the bottom side pocket. Most players would just touch the CB and send it back to you (or something close to it). I'd then send the CB 2 rails and get behind the 1 -- somewhere along the line of the first diamond down from the top-left corner. With decent speed control, you leave him on 2 and in a position where he must make a good shot.

Given the score--- you're a SEVERE underdog to take 3 fouls unless you're a mega champion. I mean, if you were some Godly champion, you wouldn't be down 96-70 to begin with, so 3-fouling is playing quit-pool, imo.

Put yourself in the position to win. You MIGHT get lucky and kiss behind the 1 -- if that happens, they're on two and screwed and now YOU have a chance to win.
 
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SpiderWebComm said:
You must start with a foul here... but no need to take 3, imo. One foul forces your opponent into the next rack, which is strong.

The key here is a good tangent. A great player won't return the foul with the CB touching the 3 ball... he/she'd prob just put you right back where your diagram sits now, which is really tricky. If that's the case - roll your intentional to a still-hooked (not kissing), but steeper angle off the impeding ball.

I'd act frustrated and just touch the CB to a tangent that takes me naturally shy of the bottom side pocket. Most players would just touch the CB and send it back to you (or something close to it). I'd then send the CB 2 rails and get behind the 1 -- somewhere along the line of the first diamond down from the top-left corner. With decent speed control, you leave him on 2 and in a position where he must make a good shot.

Given the score--- you're a SEVERE underdog to take 3 fouls unless you're a mega champion. I mean, if you were some Godly champion, you wouldn't be down 96-70 to begin with, so 3-fouling is playing quit-pool, imo.

Put yourself in the position to win. You MIGHT get lucky and kiss behind the 1 -- if that happens, they're on two and screwed and now YOU have a chance to win.
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This is an approach I, too, considered, and, as you note, it's availability is contingent on opponent allowing you the chance to play it this way. I just thought it a bit less certain to leave a tough shot than the safety that I chose. Still, I like the fact that you've thought your strategy through from begining to end before doing anything.
 
sjm said:
... You must take your foul(s) in a way that ensures that you don't end up frozen to the three at an angle that will either jack you up or give you an unfavorable angle for your safety. ...
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I don't see a way to ensure this. It seems to me that if your opponent is good with soft safes, he can always return you to more or less the position illustrated.

Also, as I understand your third shot, you have to get to the cushion and leave the 3-14 in-line to avoid a shot on the 14. Is that the plan?

Of course 3-fouling is not for everyone. Lassiter is one who did it superbly. In a match with Dick Lane, Lassiter took three fouls three times in the match and still won. He had a way of breaking well enough that his opponent was often in deep trouble after the exchange -- looking at a tough shot or no shot from the end rail and already on two fouls.
 
Shoot the cue ball three rails to make the 13 in the side. If you miss on the thin side you could leave him bad on the end rail.
 
JohnnyP said:
Shoot the cue ball three rails to make the 13 in the side. If you miss on the thin side you could leave him bad on the end rail.
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I like this one too - except not sweating the 13-- just send'r down to the end rail 3 rails. This gives the possibility of kissing the end rail - not bad at all. Good idea.
 
Bob Jewett said:
I don't see a way to ensure this. It seems to me that if your opponent is good with soft safes, he can always return you to more or less the position illustrated.

Also, as I understand your third shot, you have to get to the cushion and leave the 3-14 in-line to avoid a shot on the 14. Is that the plan?

Of course 3-fouling is not for everyone. Lassiter is one who did it superbly. In a match with Dick Lane, Lassiter took three fouls three times in the match and still won. He had a way of breaking well enough that his opponent was often in deep trouble after the exchange -- looking at a tough shot or no shot from the end rail and already on two fouls.
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Point well taken, Bob, and I noted that against a world beater (and,yes, Dick Lane qualifies) you might reasonably take three here. Then again, the opening break safety required after a three foul is one in which you generally leave a shot, albeit a tough one. I'd guess that at the recently completed world 14.1 event that 80% of the time the opening breaker left a shot. The sixteen point penalty was statistically trivial to Lassiter, one of the greatest shooters that ever lived, and if he was also one of the very best at executing the opening break, this would have been a very good play for him.

In my opinion, if we only evaluate positions like these from the vantage point of a superstar of the game competing against a fellow superstar of the game, we devalue this forum for most serious straight poolers.

As you note, even if you set out with my plan, you are not guranteed an opportunity to shoot the safety I advise, and if opponent is savvy enough to deny it (even at pro level, most oppponents are not), you might end up having to take three anyway, but at least you maneuvered to try to create a better option before doing so.

Thanks for your insights. Hope you're well, Bob.
 
I just figured that the position was rather hopeless and that the only thing you could hope for was to make your opponent need to go into the next rack. That is probably all I would have played for.

It is interesting to learn from you guys some tactics to attempt to actually come out ahead on the safety exchange.
 
Safties is one of the areas where i need most practice, and i dont get to do it enough...

Both Stu and Dennis have some great input here so far along with Mr Jewitt.

i think my next session i am going to dedicate the 1st couple of hours to safeties, i know at least i will get some people to scratch thier heads on just what i am trying to do....LOL

thanks guys
-Steve
 
Great scenario.

I fall in the camp of taking 3 intentional fouls here and doing your best to lay down a great safety break and living the cue ball glued to the top rail. My own mentor, Rodney "Babe" Thompson, is an advocate of taking the 3 intentional fouls to help you get out of situations just like this. IMO, this gives you the best option of coming back to the table with a shot.

Again, JMHO.

Ray Robles
 
Nice thread, and what I like best is that it analyzes the process by which one must make their tactical decision here.

What's right for one player may be wrong for another and what's right against one opponent may be wrong against another.

All the good posts in this thread have identified the factors that need to be considered, and, here they are:

a) How strong is your opponent and what shots are you willing to chance leaving them?

b) How strong is your game? After three fouls, you'll trail 94-52. Can you overcome that or is your best chance to win a safety battle here and now while you still have 70?

c) How good are you at executing the opening break, the one required of you after a third foul? The less reliable you are at executing it, the the less you should be inclined to bet the ranch on your ability to execute it.

This thread, I would suggest, is not about whether it's ever advisable to take three fouls. I've attended fifteen different 14.1 world championship, so I've certainly seen it used successfully as a tactic on numerous occasions. It is, instead, about how to evaluate your next move and what factors must be considered in doing so. So much of 14.1 defense is about the decision making process, and this thread is a nice example of a position that is, quite simply, not the same for everybody.

Nice input from everybody here, and the result is a great instructional thread.
 
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sjm said:
Nice thread, and what I like best is that it analyzes the process by which one must make their tactical decision here.

What's right for one player may be wrong for another and what's right against one opponent may be wrong against another.

All the good posts in this thread have identified the factors that need to be considered, and, here they are:

a) How strong is your opponent and what shots are you willing to chance leaving them?

b) How strong is your game? After three fouls, you'll trail 94-52. Can you overcome that or is your best chance to win a safety battle here and now while you still have 70?

c) How good are you at executing the opening break, the one required of you after a third foul? The less reliable you are at executing it, the the less you should be inclined to bet the ranch on your ability to execute it.

This thread, I would suggest, is not about whether it's ever advisable to take three fouls. I've attended fifteen different 14.1 world championship, so I've certainly seen it used successfully as a tactic on numerous occasions. It is, instead, about how to evaluate your next move and what factors must be considered in doing so. So much of 14.1 defense is about the decision making process, and this thread is a nice example of a position that is, quite simply, not the same for everybody.

Nice input from everybody here, and the result is a great instructional thread.
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Super post. It's all about playing within your ability and making the correct decision based on that.
 
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