SBE 2011 New Division

Wedge

Wedge

WO Wedge Lock
Silver Member
I would like to suggest that there is a new division (The Shortstops) for the 2011 SBE for the Clatterbuck's, Chau's, Vidal's and Bonilla's so the "Amateur's" have a fair chance at the so called "Amateur Open" event. These guys are "Pro's" by every stretch of the imagination...why are they playing as amateur's :(
 
Because they can and money is tight.

Maybe Allen Jr will get dad's side on what is used to define the category.
 
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Honestly I think that if you gotta come on here and rag about how some should or shouldn't be able to play in an event is (1) childish and (2) means that you can stand having competition. ANY player can be beat in any given situation. Your either gonna win or lose. Get over it. You can either beat people better than you or lose to people worse than you. Which means get ur Game better cuz obviously your not good enough to play with GOOD players...
 
Wedge said:
I would like to suggest that there is a new division (The Shortstops) for the 2011 SBE for the Clatterbuck's, Chau's, Vidal's and Bonilla's so the "Amateur's" have a fair chance at the so called "Amateur Open" event. These guys are "Pro's" by every stretch of the imagination...why are they playing as amateur's :(
Click to expand...

This happens all the time in pool. The best way to get it changed is for the real amateur's not to enter the event. See how many they get in an event that says amateur that they allow pros to play. Of course if an amatuer wants to donate/play pros he/she can. I'd say they might get 15 players in the event if all the amatuers stayed home. Johnnyt
 
pool9ballscrubb said:
Honestly I think that if you gotta come on here and rag about how some should or shouldn't be able to play in an event is (1) childish and (2) means that you can stand having competition. ANY player can be beat in any given situation. Your either gonna win or lose. Get over it. You can either beat people better than you or lose to people worse than you. Which means get ur Game better cuz obviously your not good enough to play with GOOD players...
Click to expand...

Don't disagree about what you are saying. You might change your tune just a bit if you drove five hours or more to play at SBE only to draw Matt, Shorty, Billy or seven or eight other top flight regional pro's I saw entered in the event. In the first round perhaps? Bet you'd be really happy you did your best! Oh well, off to the gambling tables.

I go because I know on a small Diamond table with alternate breaks I can compete with any of them (your correct). Through the years I've made it late into Saturday in both events. I've made it to Sunday as well in both the Open and Seniors although not in the same year of course. I can empathize however with the "complainers". Saw the look on one of my competitors when I arrived at the table. Didn't know my name. He'd seen me play before though. He felt the same way I felt when I drew Dennis Hatch first round last week at a Joss event. Don't like that feeling at all.

Lyn
 
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pool9ballscrubb said:
Honestly I think that if you gotta come on here and rag about how some should or shouldn't be able to play in an event is (1) childish and (2) means that you can stand having competition. ANY player can be beat in any given situation. Your either gonna win or lose. Get over it. You can either beat people better than you or lose to people worse than you. Which means get ur Game better cuz obviously your not good enough to play with GOOD players...
Click to expand...

Ok, I think you don't understand where he's coming from on this. He is willing to play any Amateur. Its the definition of Amateur. He didn't sign up for the pro event. The top five finishers at that event are pros in my opinion.
 
This is a topic of much debate, and we get questions about it ever year. Here is the latest reply I wrote to someone asking about this:

As you are probably aware, there is no defining standard for what constitutes a "professional" in the billiards world. Of course, there are the obvious professionals, such as Archer, Deuel, Strickland etc.. then, there are a host of other names which could be considered in the pro category. The Pro Event is an Open event, so anyone who wants to post $500 can play. This does not necessarily make them a pro, but we do not let them play in the both events (Pro and Amateur)

As far as who is allowed to play in the Open, my father does his best to screen the names on an individual basis for known players. Also, we listen to any input from other players when an objectionable player is questioned. We don't automatically remove said player, but my dad looks into it and consults with other players who may know more. Obviously, this process is not perfect, but we do our best.

The problem is there are many events around the country that are open to any player with an entry fee. Just because someone cashes in an event such as this does not mean they are a pro. If they win or place very high, then it is possible. However, the hard part is that there is no way to possibly keep track of every player placing high in every event around the country, and in some player cases - the world. As you can see, it is a highly discretionary task and we just try to do our best.

All of the above is based on the fact that they enter tournaments. Of course there could be a lot said for many top players that don't even play tourneys...

Every year there are some objections, and we try to address each one. If you know of any names that we should keep an eye on, please let me know. Anyone can always call my dad directly at (609)652-6116 to report a possible indiscretion.

So yes, there are definitely a lot of very, very good players in the Open. It is a difficult event to win, for anybody. We try our best to keep out known pros, or people who play at what is generally considered pro "speed". Until there is an industry-wide defining standard for what constitutes a professional, we just screen names the best we can. I hope I have explained this clear enough... and if you are wondering, there are people that we remove from the event every year. Most understand our decision, some get upset.

Hope this helps explain things a little bit...
 
If someone took the time to track and update all players that cashed high in certain events not every TD or promoter would follow it anyhow. Players could get a certain amout of points for finishing 10th, 9th, or better in big events like the US Open, Turningstone, DCC, and a few others. Then you can have a different point system for other lessor tours. This might not be the way, but it could be done. Eourope and others already have a system in place to single the pros out. Johnnyt
 
I actually agree with the OPer of this thread. I like to look at the other hand or side of the coin and say why doesn't these guys step up and play in the pro events and get the best competition they can? I know why, most of them are UNEMPLOYED and need to play these events to pay their bills.

We have amateur events her and get pro level players show up and play. Funny thing is some events are handicaps and the pro players will have to give two games 7-5 race and they will ***** and complain hours on end having to give them up. Yet at the end of the night it's always them left in the tourny.

Cracks me up, for some reason around here the better you are the more you thing you deserve.

LOL, only pool.
 
This happens at all events. A few years ago I went to the VNEA and my team played in the Intermediate division. (took 3rd btw) Anyway, I saw the end of the singles Open Division. Guess who was playing in the fianls. LOL, Larry Price was playing in the Open, not even Intermediate. Then of course after Intermediate they had Masters. I would consider Larry Price a Master player. But, there he was in the finals of the Open division and winning the whole thing. If my memory serves me, didn't he win the banks division at DCC 2 times?
We need to have some sort of National list that has kown players ranked.I know it will never be perfect, there is always young guys moving up the ranks and will be playing in lower divisions. Once they place high in any division they should be ranked at the higher level.
The main problem I have seen, we have different league systems. The BCA, VNEA, ACS, APA, and just because you may be listed as a Master player in one league does not mean you are even listed in another. If these leagues could at least combine there lists as to player ranks it would be most helpful. Many players go under the radar by just switching leagues for a few years until there old ranking just disappears from the books.
OK, I'm done ranting, just my .02
 
I have always been pretty one sided on this.
Last time i discussed it, was here
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=2333388#post2333388

BUT, on the other hand, i was always under the assumption that A.H. would make determinations as to who would and wouldn't be considered a pro based on some criteria.
I am not sure if my memory is correct, but there used to be talk about how that determination would be made on if the said player had cashed in any pro event, and how high that cashing would have been.

I do not know if it is true or not, but that is what everyone at the time believed, so there is a part of me that wants to say that someone "officially" told us this.
This is one of several factors that led me to decide not to play in the amateur event any more, because i in fact HAD cashed in some pro events, and i thought that if i wanted to continue playing at SBE, that i would have to upgrade to the pro event, which i had no desire to do at all.

But i stand by my former statement from the other thread.
If you can break and run out, you really DO have a chance to beat anyone.
And if you don't have that ability, you really shouldn't get your hopes up because you legitimately aren't at a level that is going to allow you to win.

Usually, when this topic comes up, it is because people go there, and show up EXPECTING to lose. They are just hoping to get a lucky draw and dodge a bullet so that they can make some money before getting chopped up.

Realistically, whoever wins this events, is playing pretty jam up.
Historically, no one has won this event by playing less then stellar, regardless of if they were a "Name" player or not.
Some players can handle losing to a "no name" player, who plays every bit as good as the "name" player, but it's always the "name" player that they complain about.

Just my 2 cents.
 
Johnnyt said:
This happens all the time in pool. The best way to get it changed is for the real amateur's not to enter the event. See how many they get in an event that says amateur that they allow pros to play. Of course if an amatuer wants to donate/play pros he/she can. I'd say they might get 15 players in the event if all the amatuers stayed home. Johnnyt
Click to expand...

Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner. Supply and demand is at work. The Open Amateur was filled up with a waiting list. Things won't change until people don't show up. But in Allens defense, how do you tell who is a pro? There isn't even a pro tour. Not having a full time employment constitute a pro? What if they used to be a pro but now are working full time (but still play great)? There is just too much gray area right now, IMHO. Keep up the good work at the Expo!

Darryl
 
allen_jr said:
This is a topic of much debate, and we get questions about it ever year. Here is the latest reply I wrote to someone asking about this:

As you are probably aware, there is no defining standard for what constitutes a "professional" in the billiards world. Of course, there are the obvious professionals, such as Archer, Deuel, Strickland etc.. then, there are a host of other names which could be considered in the pro category. The Pro Event is an Open event, so anyone who wants to post $500 can play. This does not necessarily make them a pro, but we do not let them play in the both events (Pro and Amateur)

As far as who is allowed to play in the Open, my father does his best to screen the names on an individual basis for known players. Also, we listen to any input from other players when an objectionable player is questioned. We don't automatically remove said player, but my dad looks into it and consults with other players who may know more. Obviously, this process is not perfect, but we do our best.

The problem is there are many events around the country that are open to any player with an entry fee. Just because someone cashes in an event such as this does not mean they are a pro. If they win or place very high, then it is possible. However, the hard part is that there is no way to possibly keep track of every player placing high in every event around the country, and in some player cases - the world. As you can see, it is a highly discretionary task and we just try to do our best.

All of the above is based on the fact that they enter tournaments. Of course there could be a lot said for many top players that don't even play tourneys...

Every year there are some objections, and we try to address each one. If you know of any names that we should keep an eye on, please let me know. Anyone can always call my dad directly at (609)652-6116 to report a possible indiscretion.

So yes, there are definitely a lot of very, very good players in the Open. It is a difficult event to win, for anybody. We try our best to keep out known pros, or people who play at what is generally considered pro "speed". Until there is an industry-wide defining standard for what constitutes a professional, we just screen names the best we can. I hope I have explained this clear enough... and if you are wondering, there are people that we remove from the event every year. Most understand our decision, some get upset.

Hope this helps explain things a little bit...
Click to expand...

Why would larry price be in the pro and the seniors?
 
cookieman,

You missed the connection. The poster was discussing Mr Price winning the VNEA Open division some years ago. Mr Price also won the SBE Amateur in 2009. Won this years SBE Seniors. A few years ago, he also managed to win the Derby City Bank Pool event against the World's best players. Before the VNEA. If he is not a professional pool player, who is? If Allen Senior or Junior didn't notice his entry into the Seniors this year, shame on them. They moved Dave Daya to the "pro" event after winning the SBE Seniors and Valley Forge 8 Ball last year. Sure knew who he was!

Lyn
 
Allen Hopkins

When I started this thread I meant absolutely no disrespect for Allen Hopkins or the folks that are involved with the SBE. I think Allen is a credit to the sport and I appreciate that he runs an event of this magnitude.

Having said that some of the players in the Amateur Event play at the US Open...next go to the DCC and then to Reno prior to the SBE. Coupled with that they dominate regional tours. I think we are kidding ourselves if we say it is difficult to determine who these players are and say they are not professionals. I realize there will always be grey areas but there are at least a dozen players that play in the Amateur Event that are without question professional players. This is an easy fix...not rocket science involving a lot of input and charts from leagues. Everyone on AZ most likely knows who these guys are.

Again, Allen runs a great event and I wish him all the best inthe future!!!
 
Wedge,

Been saying that for years. A simple solution would be the major sanctioning bodies (VNEA, BCAPL, ACS, APA, Etc.) could hire one person. The costs of that person would be shared by all of them. The job. Become a member of all the Regional Tours. Subscribe to all the pool and billiards magazines. Look at AZ and other on-line pool related websites. When the same names keeps poping up in event after event, notify the group. Then it would become their job to police this persons "amateur" status. As it is now, nothing is being done. At least ACS and VNEA have a list of players they know are pro's. BCAPL has their Grand Master's division. It is not in the best interests of an unknown player to become known. Whether they are a "hustler" or an unknown "monster" player. In the end, it is the finances of the entry fee that rules. Entries equal profit.

Lyn
 
Wedge said:
I would like to suggest that there is a new division (The Shortstops) for the 2011 SBE for the Clatterbuck's, Chau's, Vidal's and Bonilla's so the "Amateur's" have a fair chance at the so called "Amateur Open" event. These guys are "Pro's" by every stretch of the imagination...why are they playing as amateur's :(
Click to expand...


Edit-My bad.
 
cardiac kid said:
Wedge,

Been saying that for years. A simple solution would be the major sanctioning bodies (VNEA, BCAPL, ACS, APA, Etc.) could hire one person. The costs of that person would be shared by all of them. The job. Become a member of all the Regional Tours. Subscribe to all the pool and billiards magazines. Look at AZ and other on-line pool related websites. When the same names keeps poping up in event after event, notify the group. Then it would become their job to police this persons "amateur" status. As it is now, nothing is being done. At least ACS and VNEA have a list of players they know are pro's. BCAPL has their Grand Master's division. It is not in the best interests of an unknown player to become known. Whether they are a "hustler" or an unknown "monster" player. In the end, it is the finances of the entry fee that rules. Entries equal profit.

Lyn
Click to expand...

Just have the tour e-mail a copy of the names of the top 12 finishers from all there tournaments as they are completed. Johnnyt
 
The only thing that seperates an amature from a pro today is skill level...In a perfect world it would be easy to notice a difference. A pro would have salary, and amature would not.

It is simple pool is a sport filled with pro skill level players playing in an amature format. Some have good paying jobs as spokesmen. But there are very few I know of zero that make it on a salary to play pool???

I am pretty sure that none of the guys in the SBE amature tourney had a paycheck waiting on them should they have failed....That is what a pro pool player would get. A check for being there win, or not.

You can use the skill level thing, but that wont get you coffee and a doughnut should you lose, therfore it is not a job...

A pro in anything means you get paid in my book.
 
List

It would be very easy for a list to be started right here on AZ sort of like the good action list.
 
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