Shame Shame on you Frankie Hernandez, The other side of the story.

To throw my two cents in...

Frankie was wronged by the Assistant. The draw is the draw, you don't change it. That's the whole idea behind the "luck of the draw".

Jose may or may not have had anything to do with it, but he did the right thing; fix the problem. For that matter, it was done before play started, so no one got hurt.

Looks like it's the old adage of two wrongs don't make a right (or something corny like that). It sounds like Frankie had a legitimate b!tch about the draw. It sounds like Jose had a position that he fixed the problem and let's move on. Either way, it's a sh!tty situation.


Eric
 
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Steve Lipsky said:
I completely agree with Nostroke, and in fact, am stunned by the reaction of most of this board.

What happened at this tournament is the most egregious misuse of trust I have ever heard at a pool tournament. If Jose didn't fire his assistant on the spot, then at the very least he is accepting full responsibility for his assistant's actions. This is not an honest mistake! This is the worst thing that can happen on a TD's watch - the DRAW WAS CHANGED. And it was done secretly.
- Steve

Ok-If you are only counting the Tournament itself, this is pretty egregious. But remember at the Masters Big Apple where they continued to manipulate the Calcutta pay-outs daily? I wonder if it is the same 'helper' he had there? That may have been as bad.
 
Jose
This is a case where we have a big name/big game player that has supported your tour consistently. In return all he is asking for is a fair shake. Your "helper" crapped all over that when he took it upon himself to fix the draw. I'd have been angry as well. Where does this situation lead to you saying that Frankie is ungrateful? You muddied up the draw. Directly or indirectly, it doesn't make it right. It seems as though you and your helper owe him a sincere apology, not the other way around. Frankie has nothing to gain from this dispute, and neither do you. Adults are able to talk through the disagreement and find a solution to the problem. You need to realize that Frankie showed up there to play pool in a pool tournament, not to get pissed off and cause a scene. If that happened as the result of the tournament managment, the blame falls on your lap. It doesn't mean you are wrong and he is right, it just means that men should admit that an unintentional yet avoidable mistake was made and will do everything in their power to correct that mistake to protect the integrity of their event. Hopefuly you guys can sit down and work this out. Frankie Hernandez is a great player to have at your events.
 
Are these the facts..........I'm having trouble deciphering what happened.

Draw done.

Helper changes draw. Apparently dishonestly.

Jose fixes it before tournament starts. No matches played incorrectly.

By fixing, did he make it the way it was originally drawn?
 
I don't know about you Blackjack, but I know of more than a few people who have had "issues" with Frankie. Sure he is a great player, but he makes playing with him and around him difficult.
 
Im not taking sides on any of this.. but I dont think this place allowed calcuttas. can anybody confirm this ?
 
How does an assistant get the idea that he/she can change the draw?

Either bad management or there is something fishy going on.

Either way, crisis management of this situation has not removed suspicion.
 
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Frankie

I don't know Frankie personally, but have played in a couple
of tournaments at MaGoos in Tulsa that he was playing in.
He is very good, and seemed to have a gregarious type
of personality, and I could see where it might rub some
people the wrong way. Maybe this was just a case of a
personality problem looking for a place to happen, or just
a bad situation all the way around.

Either way, if I was Jose, that helper would be fired, and
not allowed to help in any tournament I was associated with.
If this was in business instead of a Pool tournament, that helper
and Jose could be held responsible.
 
Nit said:
Are these the facts..........I'm having trouble deciphering what happened.

Draw done.

Helper changes draw. Apparently dishonestly.

Jose fixes it before tournament starts. No matches played incorrectly.

By fixing, did he make it the way it was originally drawn?

Yes the way i read it except there has been no real verification that a 'helper' was involved. That only came from one side.
 
I am still confused ...

Who's on 1st?

I am still confused:

1) After the tournament draw, who was Frankie scheduled to play?
2) After the illegal fixing of the draw, who was Frankie scheduled to play?
3) After the correction of the illegal fixing, who was Frankie playing?

I don't know about you, but I prefer not to play a real tough match my
first match, but like others, I have to LIVE with it.
 
Blackjack said:
Jose
This is a case where we have a big name/big game player that has supported your tour consistently. In return all he is asking for is a fair shake. Your "helper" crapped all over that when he took it upon himself to fix the draw. I'd have been angry as well. Where does this situation lead to you saying that Frankie is ungrateful? You muddied up the draw. Directly or indirectly, it doesn't make it right. It seems as though you and your helper owe him a sincere apology, not the other way around. Frankie has nothing to gain from this dispute, and neither do you. Adults are able to talk through the disagreement and find a solution to the problem. You need to realize that Frankie showed up there to play pool in a pool tournament, not to get pissed off and cause a scene. If that happened as the result of the tournament managment, the blame falls on your lap. It doesn't mean you are wrong and he is right, it just means that men should admit that an unintentional yet avoidable mistake was made and will do everything in their power to correct that mistake to protect the integrity of their event. Hopefuly you guys can sit down and work this out. Frankie Hernandez is a great player to have at your events.


David, would you allow a player to disrupt other players throughout the event? Would you ask that player to settle down? Or would you give that player free reign to say and do whatever they wanted to?

From what we know the situation with the draw was corrected before play began. Frankie was winning his matches and the tournament was progressing. What should Jose' have done for Frankie after that? I know Jose very well and I am sure that he tried everything he could of to prevent having to eject Frankie from the tournament.

John
 
Nit said:
Jose fixes it before tournament starts. No matches played incorrectly.................................

By fixing, did he make it the way it was originally drawn?


What "proof" is there either way?


Who witnessed the draw and can attest that there were no other changes made?
 
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Isnt this the same Frankie that got expulsed from a US Open a couple years back for punching out Jimmy Reid?
 
Again, the fault falls to Jose. I don't know the man personally but from this story I gather he is either not a good judge of character or not in good character himself. If he hired a 'helper' that would do such a thing then he made a very poor decision. Maybe he met his helper when he was out clubbin who knows. As someone that owned a retail store for almsot 8 years, I can tell you that you can teach someone how to work a cash register, put a product on a shelf, sell the product that brings you the highest margin but there is one thing that you cannot teach someone. You cannot teach them how not to steal!! In this case, Jose can't teach his helper not to cheat. This also leads to the comment that Jose's helper has no respect for Jose himself if he is willing to put Jose in such negative position by his actions. Jose wants to throw stones at Frankie but simply called his helper's action a mistake. Jose still refuses to admit to even himself that his helper works from the gutter.

Tell us Jose, was there a calcutta?? And if so, who bought Frankie & who bought the other pro player?
 
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I was there, and there was no calcutta. I know the helper very well, and the helper is the furthest thing from dishonest.

A mistake in judgment was made on the helper's part. However, Frankie's endless ranting and raving and piss-poor in-your-face attitude about it for the ensuing hours was the reason he was kicked out of the tournament. A lot of people are passing judgment on this episode as if they were there themselves.

Steve, whether Frankie was right or wrong, his attitude was what got him ejected from the tournament. Jonathan Smith was there too, and you claim that he agreed with Frankie. Well, why didn't Jonathan get kicked out of the tournament -- it's because Jonathan is not a hot-head and knows when to let bygones be bygones.
 
That may be true ...

BackPocket9Ball said:
I was there, and there was no calcutta. I know the helper very well, and the helper is the furthest thing from dishonest.

A mistake in judgment was made on the helper's part. However, Frankie's endless ranting and raving and piss-poor in-your-face attitude about it for the ensuing hours was the reason he was kicked out of the tournament. A lot of people are passing judgment on this episode as if they were there themselves.

Steve, whether Frankie was right or wrong, his attitude was what got him ejected from the tournament. Jonathan Smith was there too, and you claim that he agreed with Frankie. Well, why didn't Jonathan get kicked out of the tournament -- it's because Jonathan is not a hot-head and knows when to let bygones be bygones.

That may be true, but does not change the fact that:

1) Jose should have been present during the draw, and seen
that the brackets were correctly done IN PERSON. Every other
tournament director that conducts 64 player tournaments or up
I have known does. And they all do it THEMSELVES.
2) It is Jose's responsibility as tournament director, irregardless
of what a helper did or did not do.
3) People get fired from jobs for judgement errors. They also go
to prison, get other unknowing people charged with being an
accomplice, and many other bad situations because of judgement
errors. Certain mistakes made are not always forgivable in our
society, and fixing a Pool tournament is not in our Pool world.
4) It is not really clear whether Jose's talking to Frankie occured
inside, inside/outside, or just outside.
5) Jose's and Steve's versions do not match on who Frankie was
playing in the first match from the original draw before the fixing.
6) Even if there was no calcutta, there are often sidebets on tournaments.
7) I just don't buy the helper story.
 
Just my two cents as a regional player myself (women)....if I attended an event that I determined was doctored (such as the instance about the draw at this event), I would not return to the tour. The integrity of the tour becomes questionable based on this thread. I do not buy that someone that has the ability to be a "helper" at an event (much less run the brackets) would not have the knowledge that you DO NOT doctor the brackets no matter what your personal thoughts are about the draw. It would make me wonder about past events and the current point holders ability to maintain those places.

Although Frankie Hernandez is not the most cordial individual, he has passion for the game. If it were me, I think I would have accepted the entry fee and walked out based on the integrity of the tour, to not return.

Again, just my two cents.....

9balllvr
 
So if you have passion for the game you can do whatever you want? I guess this goes for Earl too.

It takes a unity of pool players and tournament directors to make a successful sport, there is not one side or the other that can do it by themselves. Officials in every sport have a hard job, as do players, but the audience doesn't look to officials for guidance or as a role model........but players do. It seems as though everone here is infallible, and that their judgement is right all of the time. Hindsight is 20/20, in the pool world it might be 20/15.

Give it a rest, mistakes were made, everyone learned from it and unless you were there the truth is probably never going to materialize. No disrespect to the people involved, but there are always three truths to every story: one side, the other side, and the truth.
 
yobagua said:
Isnt this the same Frankie that got expulsed from a US Open a couple years back for punching out Jimmy Reid?


I believe that was Carlos Viera (sp?) that punched
Jimmy Reid at the U.S. open back in '97 or '98.
A friend of mine witnessed it, apparently Reid
was playing Viera and after the match they got into
a heated argument and then took it outside and Reid
came back with a black eye or something.
 
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