Should Corey be punished in RENO for being smart.

[teedotaj]

The game is an evolving game. When it first started no one knew that imparting spins on the cueball allows you greater control. The first person to realise that had the advantage. But was it an unfair advantage? Did they start whining about this new skill? No, now we have low deflection shafts to maximize on this.

The first person to figure out how to kick also had the advantage. Did they also complain about this new skill?

The first person who learned to jumped the ball consistently also had an advantage. Hooking your oponent now becomes less trivial. Was this also an unfair advantage? People not only learned to accept this, they adapted and even develop cues for it.

The point is, the game is evolving. The players evolve. you can change the rules of the game, you can change the way you rack. You can put a min speed limit to the break. People will figure out a way around it to gain an advantage.

 

[Pinocchio]

????????

You guys are makin a lot out of nothin. Sometimes I wonder if Corey doesn't hurt himself by soft break. Hes a great player an not exactly setting the world on fire with tourney wins. You know if enough players complained the soft break would be outlawed. Do you think Mika would be on this roll if he were breaking them like a baby girl??????? Coreys got skills when it comes to racking ansoft-break but does it make him a winner?
I don't think so imho............................
Pinocchio

 

[cuejoey]

Corey is simply outplaying his opponent..

 

[J. Learned Hand]

CD has practiced hard and gained an advantage over other professionals. To be sure, he has learned that when the balls are racked in a certain order and the break is stroked at a certain speed, he will make the same ball(s) and be left with the same layout. This happens over and over. I find this rather ingenious. The other pro's should try to develop such an advantage instead of complaining about someone else's mastery.

With this being said, the only issue presented is rack randomness. If the rules say "it must be random" then CD is probably in the wrong here. Perhaps someone here could post the exact language of the rules to clear this up.

If the randomness requirement is absent from the rules the other pro's should stop whining and start practicing!

 

[macneilb]

i think the best comparison you can draw between corey pattern-racking is to jumping when it came out. both were contreversial b/c they were new and the old guard believed it somehow diluted the game...taking away from the way it's 'supposed to be played'...my dad being an old-schooler who detests "those dinky little jump cues". however, the one thing I can say about jumping is that it's a skill, and it takes skill to be a great jumper b/c when you boil it down, its a form of shotmaking...it doesn't take a great skill to learn how to pattern rack. i don't blame corey for learning to soft break, making the same ball and controlling the CB consistently is a skill the requires a touch, control, and precision, again something that pattern racking does not.

 

[Keith Buck]

Now the question is, was the argument a SHARK move?

Hmmmmm.

I mean, this wouldn't be the first time i've heard of Stevie getting into an argument at a pro venue.

One has to wonder.

Even if it was a shark move, it was completely within the rules, right?

As long as he wasn't yelling at Corey while he was shooting or moving to distract him while he was shooting. Stevie was just doing whatever he could within the rules to win, right?

Just because something falls within the rules doesn't mean it is good for the game. That's my only problem with the control break and pattern racking. The break is the closest thing to an "exciting" event in a pool match and the control break takes that little bit of excitement away.

 

[JB Cases]

I wonder if any but me remembers that Sigel advocated pattern racking on his Perfect Pool videos back in the early 90s.

He didn't combine it with a soft break of course but he definitely advised putting the balls in certain places based on where they might end up after the break.

 

[pooladdict]

Rules

..
With this being said, the only issue presented is rack randomness. If the rules say "it must be random" then CD is probably in the wrong here. Perhaps someone here could post the exact language of the rules to clear this up.

If the randomness requirement is absent from the rules the other pro's should stop whining and start practicing!

You can find the rules here: http://wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_9ball

regarding racking:
2.2 Nine Ball Rack
The object balls are racked as tightly as possible in a diamond shape, with the one ball at the apex of the diamond and on the foot spot and the nine ball in the middle of the diamond. The other balls will be placed in the diamond without purposeful or intentional pattern. (put in Bold by me)

Anyway, how did they rack in Mosconi Cup? It seemed very hard to make a ball with consistency. I suspect that the balls were tapped, nine-ball on the spot, break box enforced and to avoid the soft break they required three balls made or behind the kitchen line on the break. Can anyone confirm this? It seemed to be working there, the players were struggling with the break

 

[justpool]

Change cloth

If we started using slower cloth like in the 80's, we can eliminate that soft break & see who has the stroke to play pool! The fast cloth has everybody playing 2 or 3 balls better. Just ask Nick Varner , Rempe,Sigel ,hall! Ask parica about cloth being to slick! The boys will tell you the facts. We should not be using 3 cushion billiard cloth to play pool!

 

[JAM]

If we started using slower cloth like in the 80's, we can eliminate that soft break & see who has the stroke to play pool! The fast cloth has everybody playing 2 or 3 balls better. Just ask Nick Varner , Rempe,Sigel ,hall! Ask parica about cloth being to slick! The boys will tell you the facts. We should not be using 3 cushion billiard cloth to play pool!

I have heard that before too.

Of course, the equipment of today is different than the equipment of yesteryear, and so are the rules.

With two-shot/push-out in 9-ball, the game was won on shot-making skills and strategies, as opposed to today's 9-ball which is based on who can rack 'em the best, i.e., rack riggers, and luck. Yep, today's 9-ball is more of a luck game than a game of talent.

Ask Varner, Rempe, Sigel, Hall, and Parica about today's 9-ball rules.

Parica, in particular, grew up playing 15-ball rotation on inferior equipment in the Philippines. As one example, the tables that were outside were not level, and none of the 15 balls were the same size. If somebody was walking up the sidewalk, they would just pick up the table and move it until the coast was clear to play more pool. When Jose came to the States and played 9-ball rotation (not 15) on pristine equipment, why, he thought he had died and went to heaven. :grin-square:

Equipment and rules changes have changed the 9-ball game. The rack-rigging is one thing. I never thought of Corey, though, as a rack rigger. I think he's more of a break mechanic, and there's nothing wrong with having a variety of breaks in your pool arsenol.

 

[Jeeves]

For those who need the instruction

http://www.joetucker.net/store/racking_secrets.htm
or
http://www.bebobpublishing.com/Joe.htm
very hard to watch but well worth the effort.

from Bebob Publishing
http://www.bebobpublishing.com/morebooks.htm
THE GREAT BREAK SHOT
by Charley Bond

Learning is Everything.

Jeeves

 

[SUPERSTAR]

Even if it was a shark move, it was completely within the rules, right?

As long as he wasn't yelling at Corey while he was shooting or moving to distract him while he was shooting. Stevie was just doing whatever he could within the rules to win, right?

That's my whole point.
The headline said heated words were exchanged.
So if he did start the argument at any point in the game besides when it was over, it was a shark move. That includes before the game begins.

There is a polite way of doing things (the sportsman way), and then there is the crybaby way.

I wish someone would get up there and tell it like it is, and say what went down.

 

[ironman]

But then that just falls back on Stevie for not knowing how to rack the balls for himself.
That IS the whole purpose of rack your own.
YOU rack them for yourself.
If you don't get up and check the other guys rack, then it's YOUR fault right?

Imo, they are both within the rules. You certtainly have the right to check the rack and I feel Moore has no right to complain about the soft break as Like you, it is within the rules.

That is one reason I lked the Laser rack so much. It almost nulified the rack debate. It lined em up perfectly {as near as can be} and froze the balls. It pretty much eliminated the independent racker.

This independent racker thing gets carried away at times and as a TD, I get sick of it very qickly. Next year I am going to refuse to rack for them, instead, I will examine the rack and if it looks jake, I'm going to tell them to "hit em'. If they then in turn examine them, don't like it and touch the balls, they will lose the game.

Was Moore blantantly sharking? Maybe, maybe not. If he was, how do you prove it? I just don't feel the TD racking should determine the out come by racking the balls himself.

 

[SUPERSTAR]

Was Moore blantantly sharking? Maybe, maybe not. If he was, how do you prove it? I just don't feel the TD racking should determine the out come by racking the balls himself.

As far as i'm concerned, if someone starts a stink BEFORE the match even starts about something that they haven't had to deal with, it's a shark move.

At least give the guy a chance to do a couple of rack where things might become obvious, and THEN make a complaint.

If he was confident in his skills, he would have just tried to win the match without uttering a peep.

SHARK MOVE!!!

 

[tigerseye]

I watched it and it was fully within Stevie's rights to have the TD rack.

It did shark Corey as he missed many easy shots thereafter.

Russ.......

It is hard to believe Corey Duel, U.S. Open champion and numerous tour wins, got sharked?? Hard to fathom that one for me...but it can happen i guess...

 

[ShootingArts]

no deliberate gaps either

You can find the rules here: http://wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_9ball

regarding racking:
2.2 Nine Ball Rack
The object balls are racked as tightly as possible in a diamond shape, with the one ball at the apex of the diamond and on the foot spot and the nine ball in the middle of the diamond. The other balls will be placed in the diamond without purposeful or intentional pattern. (put in Bold by me)

Anyway, how did they rack in Mosconi Cup? It seemed very hard to make a ball with consistency. I suspect that the balls were tapped, nine-ball on the spot, break box enforced and to avoid the soft break they required three balls made or behind the kitchen line on the break. Can anyone confirm this? It seemed to be working there, the players were struggling with the break

I added a little red to point out the other thing the rules state, no intentional gaps!

If a person is racking according to the rules of the game there is no disadvantage to having an independent racker. If the person is placing the balls in certain positions in the rack to gain advantage or deliberately creating gaps then taking away this illegal advantage could shark them, especially if they had gotten away with it in prior matches.

Break the balls any way you want to within the rules. Rack them any way you want to too, within the rules. However, the rules on racking don't leave you much leeway. Anything outside of these rules is cheating unless local rules are in effect.

Hu

 

[Black-Balled]

No problem here.

Sounds like a shark move to me.

But the break is THE most important shot in the game.

By exploiting THAT shot, Corey IS effectively outplaying his opponent.

If Stevie doesn't have the discipline to practice racking the balls in a specific order to know where every ball is going to go, why is his complaint accommodated?

Sounds like a shark move to me.

If your scared that you can't beat the guy when he's within the rules, you shouldn't be playing pool for your living.

 

[The Saw]

Then why doesnt Corey go to the Philippines and bust the whole country?

I think the Phillipinos know better J-Cobbler..... If CD was to play someone full rack rotation on TAR it may be your best seller ever. The chat would be full of "OMG!!!", "HE DID NOT JUST DO THAT!", "WTF???" "THAT'S SICK!!". People wouldn't have time to BS. Ever seen anyone run 70 or 72 (can't remember exactly which it was) balls in rotation? I have....

Saw---> The Believer

 

[ironman]

As far as i'm concerned, if someone starts a stink BEFORE the match even starts about something that they haven't had to deal with, it's a shark move.

At least give the guy a chance to do a couple of rack where things might become obvious, and THEN make a complaint.

If he was confident in his skills, he would have just tried to win the match without uttering a peep.

SHARK MOVE!!!

I'm not arguing that by any means. It is what it is no matter what they call it. I get so sick of it as a TD I could scream and it's the same ones over and over again. But I have made up my mind as to how I will handle it in 09. They don't like it, go see my partner.

 

[JAM]

...and it's the same ones over and over again....

Ain't it the truth.

It may be because they think everybody else is doing to them what they are doing to everybody else! :thumbup: