Sick of all the infighting

Of course the financing will have to be worked out

Therein lies the rub with any King of The Hill format.

Someone sponsor TAR with $20,000 and we will give you a King Of The Hill series with the best players in the world as well as the short stops. And people will love it.

Tournaments have never worked. They are good for the players but bad for marketing and spectators. We will get more spectators at Hardtimes in LA this weekend for Oscar vs John than the event in Galveston (edit I better include The Mezz Classic event and the UPA event in Vegas as well so people dont get their panties in a bunch about me picking on one event) had for any single day and probably more than several of them combined.

Speaking of that I have to go to work.
 
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Marketing and gimmicks!!!

For most of us, it was the action that surrounded the game. For years we have been told that it is a bad thing, but if handled properly by the right people and marketing it correctly, it can be used as a magnet for fans. More viewers = more sponsors. More sponsors = more money.


If you win, you become King of the Hill. Each week, you must defend your spot by putting up at least 50% of what you have won so far. The challengers that play the King of the Hill will have to qualify through 3 rounds of 5-man ring games to build up their challenge purse. Each ring game round has a buy in, as well as winner's purse put up by a sponsor. You can have different sponsors for each round, or we can just find a rich uncle. I say diversify and expand - never put your eggs in one basket.

If you lose the King of the Hill match, you have to start all over again, but you are allowed to reserve a % of what you won in the ring games for yourself.

You also receive an appearance fee paid for by a title sponsor. You go back to the bottom with some cash in your pocket, some exposure, and the drive to get back to the top of the mountain to win the BIG CASH.

This ensures a different challenger every week - perhaps a different champion every week.


I think an idea such as this can be worked upon and made very interesting and exciting with some tweaks. Its cant just be standard pool matches though it has to draw interest and become a bit more exciting for mainstream viewers to watch!

The concept is similiar to a show called top chef or something of that sort.................there is a group of 4 or so top chefs that can be challeneged and you go to battle in the kitchen with ingredients that are a surprise to both the challenger and the top chef defending his title. this could be the same in pool where they never know the game until they choose an opponent.

It has a lot of potential to build upon.................this is the kind of out of the box thinking that needs to be done. It has to be exciting, out of the box and somewhat gimmicky to draw crowds and sponsors which will draw money.

I like the basic idea!
 
A fundamental point. Likewise, a pool match won't sell 80,000 seats in a stadium at $50 a pop, or TV commercial time at $100,000 a minute. People just aren't interested in watching it.

Further, most people don't understand the rules and vagaries of the game well enough to appreciate what's going on - all the banking, english, shot setups, etc. Even if they did, on a TV screen it's often not possible to identify which ball's being played, unless you're so hardcore you can identify it by color, so most viewers really won't know what the **** is going on in a televised pool match.

Even if we did have big-time sponsors, you might ask yourselves how you would feel about players wearing shirts plastered with sponsor patches.

Ruark,

That is exactly my point. Pool won't sell out 80,000 seats and it won't command $100,000 a minute for a commercial. So why is everyone's plan call for a big "Sponsor"? The only way a big sponsor comes in is as an "Advertiser", and they won't come in without 80,000 seats filled!

Pool needs to generate a much smaller scale system that grows from the bottom. It needs to start with the people already playing pool, and grow that crowd. We need to bring in consumers that don't currently play pool. If you go to a bowling alley here is Dallas, they have 48 lanes tied up with leagues every night of the week! Many nights they have 2 sessions! These people are spending $16.00 average just on league dues, not to mention what they eat and drink.

Why don't those people play pool?

When we have 1,000,000 players getting together every week to play pool, then we have a fan base to show the pro pool talent to. Most of the income in NASCAR does not come from selling 80,000 seats! Granted, allot of it comes from TV production, but what keeps the drivers and teams going is merchandising. For every one person that can go to a race, there are thousands that can buy a $40.00 T-shirt with their favorite driver on it.

I just think that when we have an audience, the big advertisers will come find pool. Until then, we need to build a foundation, an audience.



By the way, my father grew up in Evant, TX! I have been there many times before my grandmother passed several years ago. I remember getting old fashioned soda's at the drug store down town when I was a kid.


Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
 
Therein lies the rub with any King of The Hill format.

Someone sponsor TAR with $20,000 and we will give you a King Of The Hill series with the best players in the world as well as the short stops. And people will love it.

Tournaments have never worked. They are good for the players but bad for marketing and spectators. We will get more spectators at Hardtimes in LA this weekend for Oscar vs John than the event in Galveston (edit I better include The Mezz Classic event and the UPA event in Vegas as well so people dont get their panties in a bunch about me picking on one event) had for any single day and probably more than several of them combined.

Speaking of that I have to go to work.

You should contact JR and see if you can borrow some of his 'viewers'
 
Watchez

I think he was talking about spectators at the event, not online viewers.

I think TAR gets plenty of online viewers when they are free streaming. The numbers only drop off with the ppv, as I would expect.

Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
 
Interesting point coming from someone who is quick to point out that they're best buds with Johnny Archer.

I can see where anyone outside of full time players would think "so what, why does it matter?" but I can't see a full time pro player having the same mentality.

The mentality of higher payouts probably comes from the other things like golf, baseball, racing, and football that most of us do on the weekends for fun but where the "pros" of that recreational event are paid millions.


For JA yes he should and is interested in making pool bigger and yes I wished he made more $$$, he is so under paid it makes me sick. He works tirelessly, I respct JA as a man not just a player. Infact our friendship has little to do with pool.


My statment was made from the perspective of the masses not the elite. Nothing more or less, i wasnt trying to stir the pot, just a different angle at looking at something thats all.:smile:



Mark Griffen has my support, he is honest, humble, deep, smart and not selfish. He is at a point in his life that he has the time as well. I believe he is the best man for the job to "Grow" pool.
 
Mark,
The major problem is that "tournament pool" does not and will not capture any audience.

I have said for years that very few of us (if any) fell in love with the game of pool by watching a 64 player tournament.

We need to look within ourselves and find out what it was that attracted us to the game of pool - what made us fall in love with the sound of the balls clicking together - hitting the back of the pockets - and then traveling down the subway.

Find out what it was that attracted our eyes, our minds and our hearts, and then bottle it up.

For most of us, it was the action that surrounded the game. For years we have been told that it is a bad thing, but if handled properly by the right people and marketing it correctly, it can be used as a magnet for fans. More viewers = more sponsors. More sponsors = more money.

Just ditch the long drawn out tournaments and have 1 on 1 matchups like TAR is doing already, but add in a sense of continuity for those who win - and make it worth the time and energy for those that lose.

If you win, you become King of the Hill. Each week, you must defend your spot by putting up at least 50% of what you have won so far. The challengers that play the King of the Hill will have to qualify through 3 rounds of 5-man ring games to build up their challenge purse. Each ring game round has a buy in, as well as winner's purse put up by a sponsor. You can have different sponsors for each round, or we can just find a rich uncle. I say diversify and expand - never put your eggs in one basket.

If you lose the King of the Hill match, you have to start all over again, but you are allowed to reserve a % of what you won in the ring games for yourself.

You also receive an appearance fee paid for by a title sponsor. You go back to the bottom with some cash in your pocket, some exposure, and the drive to get back to the top of the mountain to win the BIG CASH.

This ensures a different challenger every week - perhaps a different champion every week.

Of course the financing will have to be worked out, but if this system test-run in a smaller market, such as Phoenix or Dallas, we can iron the kinks before it is taken to the national and global level.

We are infamous for putting the cart before the horse. Something such as this would work if we got our shitt together first, instead of planing the event and getting our shitt together as the event unfolds - thsi goes for any idea, not just mine.

This post is not all there is to my idea. There is so much that has to happen before this could ever get off of the ground, and that is where the growing pains come in.

That is my idea - whether or not anybody will invest in it is up for debate. Like I said, I would like to try and test run this in a local market and improve upon it gradually with the intent of expanding it to the national market.


Great post Dave,


OT: I hope you are ok after the 10,000 balls
 
If I was making $$$$ I would be investing in pool, When I came to AZ i was doing real good, I havent made $$$ in 18 months now and that is taking its toll, on old Fatboy. I'd love to be able to pump a mil/yr into pool. I promis you one thing I wouyld have got alot more milage for my $$$ than the Galviston boys did(I'm not knocking them I sinceerly appericate what they did). When I get back on my feet I am going to do something big in pool. I said that before and meant it., I just dont have the $$$ to lose right now. I still do a few things
 
Great post Dave,


OT: I hope you are ok after the 10,000 balls

Thanks Eric

I went 21.5 hours and pocketed a little more than 8500 balls on 1 table. I was never physically tired at all during the entire event, and could have went on for several more hours nonstop.

I am already planning on doing another fundraiser locally here in Orlando for another good cause - if you want me too, I'll do one in your neighborhood too.
 
What is the current forumula being used by whomever is counting up the points to determine how many points each tournament awards?
 
Players Assn.

Would really like to continue the discussion on the structure of a player's assn.

There have been some good comments and I would like to have some more.

The BCA points list formula is here: http://www.azbilliards.com/explanation.html
It can be seen on AZ front page top left corner - BCA Point list (or similar)

PLEASE try to keep this thread on topic. I know it is easy to wander - but some threads really are important.

Mark Griffin
 
Would really like to continue the discussion on the structure of a player's assn.

There have been some good comments and I would like to have some more.

The BCA points list formula is here: http://www.azbilliards.com/explanation.html
It can be seen on AZ front page top left corner - BCA Point list (or similar)

PLEASE try to keep this thread on topic. I know it is easy to wander - but some threads really are important.

Mark Griffin

I agree Mark, Sorry to have wondered off base there.

I support you 100% to be the boss on this plan. Your reputation, experience etc all add up to one thing, your the best guy for the job. When I get back in the $$$ again(and I will) you will have my financial backing for the players. I believe that like I noted above the Galviswton people could have got alot more milage out of their dollars, so to spreak.

When you do have a chance please call me as I do have on thing pool related to talk to you about, i'm friends with a casino owner and he is interested in doing a event and will add $$$, I was going to keep it private but since i'm here typing away i'm telling you now. we just cant disclose the casino, yet.

thanks eric


702-241-8000
 
Would really like to continue the discussion on the structure of a player's assn.

There have been some good comments and I would like to have some more.

The BCA points list formula is here: http://www.azbilliards.com/explanation.html
It can be seen on AZ front page top left corner - BCA Point list (or similar)

PLEASE try to keep this thread on topic. I know it is easy to wander - but some threads really are important.

Mark Griffin

Mark

Any players organization should be autonomous, and separate from the tours.

There are many obvious reasons for that.

The players organization would be there to assist the players in all matters between them and the tour.

I would also like to discuss having money set up in a retirement plan - a completely voluntary plan for the players. A percentage of what they earn from the tour, as well as a percentage of the entry fees would be invested in this plan. The players would also have the freedom to opt out of the plan after a certain amount of time.

When I have some time, I would like to talk with you about this in depth.
 
Player's Assn.

Blackjack;

Not sure if I totally agree with you on the seperation issue. I think it depends on who is in charge - more than what they are in charge of.

A good tour operator would be better served listening to the players when there are valid concerns.

Retirement fund would be nice BUT I think health plan might be more pressing. I am guessing that basic health policy would be $250-$350 per month. That might be a lot more than putting away something for a retirement plan. So I guess that is up for future discussion.

The problem with retirement plans are you gotta put the money somewhere - and I would not trust any bank or stock in todays wild economy.

But I would like to talk to you further.

Mark Griffin
 
i agree

I have to say my thoughts of being seperate from a tour isn't always necessary if handled properly and for benefit of the players and industry but if motives are selfish it can become a problem. Its a fine line but can be worked with as long as people have pure motives and understand business.

As far as a retirement goes to be honest most people would choose to invest back into themselves or something themselves especially in such an economic mess that we find our country in currently. Health benefits and teaching marketing and business skills are a much higher priority in my opinion!

As I discussed with someone posting here......it has to be done right because the industry cannot take on another failed attempt at creating a players union of sorts. The time may not have been right or maybe those needed weren't yet ready but its a forced issue at this point because someone will step up and sadly, they may be well meaning but could cause more damage than good. It is time! Are we all truly ready to step up and give support to the right group?
 
It has to be a businessman or woman to run a National tour just like we should have more people that have run a big business to be in Congress...not more lawyers or people that know how to play the game=get re elected. Johnnyt
 
Would really like to continue the discussion on the structure of a player's assn.

There have been some good comments and I would like to have some more.

The BCA points list formula is here: http://www.azbilliards.com/explanation.html
It can be seen on AZ front page top left corner - BCA Point list (or similar)

PLEASE try to keep this thread on topic. I know it is easy to wander - but some threads really are important.

Mark Griffin

i usually stay out of this stuff, but i have one thing to add

I think a players assosiation should really be looked at as a 2 way street.
the assosiation could be used to look into tournys and protect the players payouts and interest.

but

i think it would work ever better, if the assosiation would require as part of its "membership" a gaurentee from it players/members to either paly in a certain number of sanctioned tournys and/or atleast certain specific tournaments. I think on a Non-mega event scales it would be easier to get places to hold events/add money if the organization could say to a potential tournament/host, "if you do these things to get sactioned and protect our players, than i can gaurentee x amount of pros or i can gaurentee these top palyers will be here"

seems like it would be easier to get some money added once these places our gaurenteed some of the larger "draw" players
 
i usually stay out of this stuff, but i have one thing to add

I think a players assosiation should really be looked at as a 2 way street.
the assosiation could be used to look into tournys and protect the players payouts and interest.

but

i think it would work ever better, if the assosiation would require as part of its "membership" a gaurentee from it players/members to either paly in a certain number of sanctioned tournys and/or atleast certain specific tournaments. I think on a Non-mega event scales it would be easier to get places to hold events/add money if the organization could say to a potential tournament/host, "if you do these things to get sactioned and protect our players, than i can gaurentee x amount of pros or i can gaurentee these top palyers will be here"

seems like it would be easier to get some money added once these places our gaurenteed some of the larger "draw" players

I agree with this. It sounds like a win win to me. I'd like to here what others including tournament players that WANT a National Tour think about this. Johnnyt
 
Raising the money

Would really like to continue the discussion on the structure of a player's assn.

There have been some good comments and I would like to have some more.

The BCA points list formula is here: http://www.azbilliards.com/explanation.html
It can be seen on AZ front page top left corner - BCA Point list (or similar)

PLEASE try to keep this thread on topic. I know it is easy to wander - but some threads really are important.

Mark Griffin

According to the BCA published statistics, there are 36,000,000 people that play pool for grins and giggles once a week in this country alone. Until something sparks the interest of these players enough to get them to "Get Involved".......it's tough. Just imagine if we could get each one of those players to send just a $1.00 per year to an association with good management that promoted pool.....problem of money would be solved.

Mark and I have had some conversations about the Pro side of the industry and we both agree, something has to change and we are both willing and trying to do something about it.

We can't keep on putting new lipstick on the same old pig and think it will make it beautiful.

Dick Clark
 
Players Association

Professional pool should be careful. It could organize itself into oblivion and total irrelevance.
 
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