Slowing down the final forward stroke...

sidepocket7

sidepocket7

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I was recently experiencing a lot more difficulty in pocketing balls, and after going through a checklist of fundamentals ( grip, stance, etc.), I came to realize that I was rushing the final forward stroke through the cueball. At first, I thought it may be that I wasn't following through, but video showed otherwise. But after conciously slowing down my final forward stroke through the cueball, the balls started to drop from everywhere. I was just wondering if this makes sense to anyone, and if anyone has experienced something similar. It may have something to do with a more exaggerated pause, but Im not sure. Thoughts???......
 
S-P-F ftw ^^

And to learn it from a qualified instructor really, really makes sense my friend. There s noone i remember who tried it who was later not more satisfied (and even more successful).

lg
INgo
 
slowing down on the back stroke

sidepocket7 said:
I was recently experiencing a lot more difficulty in pocketing balls, and after going through a checklist of fundamentals ( grip, stance, etc.), I came to realize that I was rushing the final forward stroke through the cueball. At first, I thought it may be that I wasn't following through, but video showed otherwise. But after conciously slowing down my final forward stroke through the cueball, the balls started to drop from everywhere. I was just wondering if this makes sense to anyone, and if anyone has experienced something similar. It may have something to do with a more exaggerated pause, but Im not sure. Thoughts???......
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Just for grins try slowing down on your final backstroke. When I start messing up my stroke I accelerate about halfway through the backstroke and then a quick reverse to forward acceleration. I start missing everything but the simplest shots and that is usually the cause.

Different strokes work for different people but I'm not really a fan of the pause at the end of the backstroke, I prefer a very smooth transition. Pull the cue back gently, slow to a stop, and reverse directions starting forward slowly and building to the speed needed.

There are physical advantages to a several second pause, there are physical advantages to a smooth transition without a detectable pause. Only each player can find out what is right for them. Almost without exception deceleration and acceleration are what is used rather than jerking back and forward though. This can be hard to see with some players because of the speed they use. I watched slow motion of a pistol champion shooting almost five times a second, the same rate of fire or faster than many submachine guns. In slow motion it was very plain that he was squeezing the trigger, not jerking it. We have to train the muscles in our arms to work in the same manner, decelerating gradually at the back of our stroke, whichever smooth transition we prefer, and a gradual acceleration into the cue ball. I disagree with hitting our peak stroke speed just before contacting the cue ball but that is another discussion.

Hu
 
ShootingArts said:
I'm not really a fan of the pause at the end of the backstroke, I prefer a very smooth transition. Pull the cue back gently, slow to a stop, and reverse directions starting forward slowly and building to the speed needed.

Hu
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You say you aren't a fan of the pause, and then you described your stroke with a pause (stop) at the backstroke.
I agree that a smooth easy backstroke is best. Why jerk it back? Then the pause or stop, and start the forward stroke. The issue overall seems to be how long of a pause, and the answer is that it will be different for different players. Mine is very short, but video analysis tells me it is there.

Your description of a good stroke is spot on...but it actually does include a pause according to your own words. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say you are not a fan of an extended pause.

Steve
 
ShootingArts said:
. . .
Different strokes work for different people but I'm not really a fan of the pause at the end of the backstroke, I prefer a very smooth transition. Pull the cue back gently, slow to a stop, and reverse directions starting forward slowly and building to the speed needed.

There are physical advantages to a several second pause, there are physical advantages to a smooth transition without a detectable pause. Only each player can find out what is right for them. Almost without exception deceleration and acceleration are what is used rather than jerking back and forward though. . . . We have to train the muscles in our arms to work in the same manner, decelerating gradually at the back of our stroke, whichever smooth transition we prefer, and a gradual acceleration into the cue ball. I disagree with hitting our peak stroke speed just before contacting the cue ball but that is another discussion.

Hu
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Great stuff Hu. I think you may be the new SPF or SNoPF technique instructor. Never seen a highly successful pause at the end of the backstroke.
 
I was trying to avoid people splitting hairs as you are doing

pooltchr said:
You say you aren't a fan of the pause, and then you described your stroke with a pause (stop) at the backstroke.
I agree that a smooth easy backstroke is best. Why jerk it back? Then the pause or stop, and start the forward stroke. The issue overall seems to be how long of a pause, and the answer is that it will be different for different players. Mine is very short, but video analysis tells me it is there.

Your description of a good stroke is spot on...but it actually does include a pause according to your own words. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say you are not a fan of an extended pause.

Steve
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Steve,

As we all know, every straight back and forth motion involves a stop at the end of motion in one direction even if only for the tiniest fraction of a second. Few would consider that a pause or stop in layman's terms but some folks that like to argue always bring up that fact. Not talking about you here, one of the favorite hair splitters is currently on an extended vacation. The only way to truly have no stop at the two ends of your stroke is to use an elliptical or figure eight motion so that the motion is continuous. Many of the Filipino men and the snooker players shooting on twelve foot tables with tiny pockets use these types of strokes with great success so although they vary greatly from SPF they certainly can and do work.

The real key to the elliptical strokes and my stroke without a detectable pause is that the muscles are never static as they are in SPF. The "Pause" in SPF is more of a training tool and not something that must be forever incorporated into somebody's game. As I said, it has advantages and disadvantages. Which outweighs the other depends on the individual and the stage their game is at. A few people use the pause forever, the vast majority don't. Skipping the extended pause may benefit both accuracy and speed control once someone has a straight stroke during the actual motion.

It is wise for each individual to discover what works best for them and revisit old methods once in awhile too. Sometimes what didn't work in one stage of our development works very well in another stage. Many things didn't work for me when I first tried them. However I greatly respected the people that gave me the information so I revisited the ideas months or even years later, sometimes for the third or fourth time. Often what didn't work at all earlier fit me perfectly now.

We all have to find what works for us. That may well be a moving target that evolves through the years as the rest of our game changes. There isn't one right way for all people all of the time.

Hu
 
Hu...Boy that Buddy Hall guy sure has been "training" a heck of a long time...50 yrs or better, by my reckoning!...and good golly, all those top snooker players...will they EVER learn? :D

Your last sentence is certainly true for many, but not true for all.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

ShootingArts said:
The "Pause" in SPF is more of a training tool and not something that must be forever incorporated into somebody's game.

There isn't one right way for all people all of the time.

Hu
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Worth mentioning is that even if pros don't literally pause on every ball (though the SPF guys will say there's no reason they shouldn't)... they do pause on some toughies and they pause when they're teaching others. I think many people would be surprised how many top pros endorse the pause even if they don't catch them using it much.

Classic example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMGNrtY8ip0
 
I am very happy with my stroke right now.

Well recently I watched Landon Shuffett play on some videos and I love the kids preshot routine. He is very smooth. So I have been trying to incorporate some of the things he does.

1. The kid is the epitome of SPF, now I am not a big fan of the prolonged pause at the end of the back stroke, but I know that when I slow my final backstroke down a half a beat, I shoot way better. It has been showing.

2. I have been following his practice or warm up stroke pattern and its been working very well for me.

A few other things have contributed to my stroke being very solid of late. My grip pressure is so light now that if it were any lighter, the cue would slide in my hand. Whats really great about this is I used to have a problem of increasing grip pressure as i stroked through the ball, Scott Lee discovered this in a lesson I had with him. Well now I feel like I am cradling the cue and with this feeling I have noticed that my grip pressure is constant all the time now, and whats even better is I dont even have to think about. I changed the grip pressure because it felt right, and this problem I had disappeared on its own. I just realized a day or two ago that this is what Scott Lee wanted me to correct.

Due to the change of grip pressure my speed control has changed quite a bit. I am striking the ball so much better that it takes almost half the effort in my swing to get the same results that I used too, i was all over the place over drawing and over spinning at first. It took me about 2-3 days to get adjusted to this. At first I wondered if what I had changed was a bad thing, then I realized it cant be because my grip pressure is now constant through the stroke.

Finally I am following all the way through till my hand hits my chest on almost every shot.

Its funny I took classes from Scott back in December and just now am I executing what he wanted me to fix.

So a slowed backstroke, Super light grip pressure, following all the way through, and executing a good preshot routine that Stan Shuffett hooked me up with, and I feel like I am playing very well at the moment. I feel the only time I miss is when I miss aim or do something funny that I shouldnt have done. Usually I get tired and start rushing through my routine and THATS MY BIGGEST FLAW right now.

Well I just thought I would give my 2 cents.

My stroke feels so sweet right now.

Thanks Scott Lee and Stan Shuffett!!
 
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The pausing motions of the back arm are very similar to that of a pro baseball pitcher + accel thru the shot.
 
Being a golfer, I'm a fan of the idea of gradual acceleration through the ball. The way to ensure this is to start the through-swing slowly. This also prevents the jerk stroke from creeping in. Additionally it seems to help in keeping the stroke straight.
 
You never want to slow down your stroke, but you definitely don't want to speed it up like a freaken NHRA drag car. Slowing down your stroke will lead to miscue's and just shitty action on the cueball. You also won't follow through properly by slowing down your stroke.
 
Yes he has

Scott Lee said:
Hu...Boy that Buddy Hall guy sure has been "training" a heck of a long time...50 yrs or better, by my reckoning!...and good golly, all those top snooker players...will they EVER learn? :D

Your last sentence is certainly true for many, but not true for all.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...



Scott,

Buddy is one more smart son of a gun. He found something that worked for him and he stuck with it. As Efren, Bustamonte, Keith, and dozens more players have proven finding something that works and spending a career polishing it can be as good as trying to find the most perfect way of doing things.

Three SPF instructors on this forum have told me in face to face conversations that the pause was more of a training tool and not necessarily something to keep in your game. They are all good guys but some of them think they have to stick to the holy gospel on pool forums. ;)

Hu
 
sidepocket7 said:
I was recently experiencing a lot more difficulty in pocketing balls, and after going through a checklist of fundamentals ( grip, stance, etc.), I came to realize that I was rushing the final forward stroke through the cueball. At first, I thought it may be that I wasn't following through, but video showed otherwise. But after conciously slowing down my final forward stroke through the cueball, the balls started to drop from everywhere. I was just wondering if this makes sense to anyone, and if anyone has experienced something similar. It may have something to do with a more exaggerated pause, but Im not sure. Thoughts???......
Click to expand...

I think the main thing is to not force the transition. In golf they call it "hitting from the top".

The stroke transition should be smooth and natural. If you think of Lawrence Welk saying "uh one and uh two" it pretty much captures an effective stroke transition. Once the transition is made, power can be applied as needed.

Chris
 
randyg said:
Buddy Hall-Allison Fisher
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Thanks for the 2 examples. I will let others decide for themselves.

Randy, guys like you and Scott are doing a great service to the game by teaching it. I will step back off this issue. I do however think there is some value in noting that a definative stop like Buddy Hall's, as great as he is/
was, is not required to be accomplished at this game. I have even seen many of these SPF discussions morph into how short the pause can be and still be a pause.

It might also be noted that there are a fair number of average quality players that get stuck in a continuous stroke tuning cycle which takes away from developing more advanced techniques related to patterns, speed, shot selection, etc.

Again, thank you Scott for what you taught me. I missed the pause part, but your lessons were probably the best thing for my game 17 years ago. You and the progressively better competition found locally at the time as well as a couple of travelling pros who gave me some time.
 
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