Solution to Supporting Pro Pool

[CJ Wiley]

the APA did partner up with the PBTA and had a lot of success

I just can't get excited about "saving pro pool" when there's no pro tour. I joke about Shane being the only pro because there's no pro tournaments in the United States. He's having to spend a lot of time abroad to actually be considered a "pro".

The APA was contributing $140,000 ($1 per player) in the early 90s. They discontinued there sponsorship because of political disarray in the PBTA. Simonis also put in $60,000 and Diamond (was just getting started) chipped in over $80,000.

That was $280,000 that was used to fund the TV schedule, prize money and running the corporate office in Florida.

So the APA did partner up with the PBTA and had a lot of success. I believe they would get involved if there was a comprehensive business plan that outlined how they would profit, grow, and reach some of their higher membership goals.

Whats in it for me? That's the base of every sales pitch, so what does the APA get for saving Pro Pool?

There are only a few Pro Players that seem to really understand the communication side of things as it relates to the public and getting them to commit to anything other then playing pool all day is questionable at best.

I like the idea, if someone could figure out the benefit to the APA and how to get the pro's to buy in..., the hand full of pro's left.

 

[fathomblue]

I ran this exact idea past Corey Deuel and Adam Smith in Tunica at the 2012 Southern Classic. Seriously. Basically, Corey's region would be the Tampa area. Adam's would be the Pittsburgh area.

The pro's would oversee the amateur league. Maybe delegate a volunteer to be the league night director. The pro would only have to show up maybe once or twice a month for free lessons, since that would be one of the perks of league membership.

A portion of those dues/fees would go to the pro. Another portion to session pay-outs. Another portion to expenses for Nationals.

The qualifying/winners of each amateur region would meet in a big tourney in Vegas. The pro representatives would have their own tourney. Each faction would be there to cheer their "hometown players" on. There could even be a Scotch Doubles Pro-Am event.

I got a not-so-enthusiastic response. Then the subject got turned to Bonus Ball, since it's supposed to represent geographical locations.

 

[Jaden]

nah

THIS! I'm amazed that when people bring up what Tony is doing in NYC, it often gets ignored. Absolutely blows my mind. Oscar is doing something similar out west, I think (correct me if I'm wrong). Lenny, what if you and Scott were to put together something like this for the Southwest region? I think Corey Deuel had something going on in Florida, also.

The regions that I think should be viable is the north east, the south (including southeast)

The midwest and the west. You might be able to go northwest and southwest.

If you have regional tours in each of those regions (which we already kind of at least do) and you get them to work together, we might have a viable national pool group available and a viable means of structuring a path to professional pool.

With point values in the tours and structure setup to qualify the different levels for each successive season, I think we are close to having a viable pro tour again.

Jaden

 

[Keith Jawahir]

Well the key would be for everyone to form like voltron and work together. Tony has a very successful model which is easy enough to replicate but much more effective to expand.

Zion also with the Megabucks league. I think the biggest hurdle is just finding someone with integrity to be involved in each city. We're very lucky to have Tony.

 

[daphish1]

So the APA did partner up with the PBTA and had a lot of success. I believe they would get involved if there was a comprehensive business plan that outlined how they would profit, grow, and reach some of their higher membership goals.

That's the key right there. How would supporting pro pool increases the bottom line? Doesn't matter what sport you choose they are driven by profit. The support they are given by businesses are driven by increasing their profits.

If pro players want to try to push leagues to support them then they need to show the league what "they" have to offer not the other way around. A local pro would need to work (paid) to increase league sizes and show that what they can offer will help the business. Then the leagues might be more approachable about a pro tour.

 

[Scaramouche]

Why is this myth ( if it wasn't for legal gambling on snooker ) continually perpetuated on here?

Because, for example, BetVictor sponsors the Welsh Open and Databet sponsors the World Championship and the Masters (the two highest paying tournaments (£300,000 and £200,000 respectively for the winners).

Myths don't contribute money.

 

[Mark Griffin]

Solution to supporting pro pool

What is the definition of a Pro Pool player?

There are some basic 'economic laws' that will raise their ugly head if not careful.

All I'm gonna say is 'something is coming relatively soon' - might not solve everyone's issue but if embraced, it could make a huge difference in the industry.

And it will NOT rely on pool rooms or pool players for its success. Unfortunately, history has shown that requires too many moving 'parts'. This is not meant as a slam on anyone - it is just reality!

Sorry for the tease - but so many of these concepts have been tried ( and done) before. CSI did the National Championship Series about. 6 years ago. Brandon Shuff won out of 64 qualified players and got to go the World's 8-ball. I was a lot of work with the finals being held at the golden Nugget in downtown Las Vegas.

We got it done but it was very difficult and expensive.

Mark Griffin

 

[Fast Lenny]

What is the definition of a Pro Pool player?

There are some basic 'economic laws' that will raise their ugly head if not careful.

All I'm gonna say is 'something is coming relatively soon' - might not solve everyone's issue but if embraced, it could make a huge difference in the industry.

And it will NOT rely on pool rooms or pool players for its success. Unfortunately, history has shown that requires too many moving 'parts'. This is not meant as a slam on anyone - it is just reality!

Sorry for the tease - but so many of these concepts have been tried ( and done) before. CSI did the National Championship Series about. 6 years ago. Brandon Shuff won out of 64 qualified players and got to go the World's 8-ball. I was a lot of work with the finals being held at the golden Nugget in downtown Las Vegas.

We got it done but it was very difficult and expensive.

Mark Griffin

I look forward to seeing this. :smile:

 

[cleary]

What is the definition of a Pro Pool player?

There are some basic 'economic laws' that will raise their ugly head if not careful.

All I'm gonna say is 'something is coming relatively soon' - might not solve everyone's issue but if embraced, it could make a huge difference in the industry.

And it will NOT rely on pool rooms or pool players for its success. Unfortunately, history has shown that requires too many moving 'parts'. This is not meant as a slam on anyone - it is just reality!

Sorry for the tease - but so many of these concepts have been tried ( and done) before. CSI did the National Championship Series about. 6 years ago. Brandon Shuff won out of 64 qualified players and got to go the World's 8-ball. I was a lot of work with the finals being held at the golden Nugget in downtown Las Vegas.

We got it done but it was very difficult and expensive.

Mark Griffin

I hope you're gonna have a million added Texas Bumps event cause I'm stone cold robbing that shit.

 

[Joe T]

If I were rich I would have you barking bumps at every pro on the planet cleary.

 

[highkarate]

i just posted something in cleary's thread about professional pool that i think pro players should run leagues. your idea of them coming together and starting one big league is great. and if youre gonna play in a league, why wouldn't you wanna play in the one with all the pros behind it? i hope youre onto something here. pool will be around forever, but the existence of pro players really depends on whether or not they want to contribute to the growth of the sport or just keep trying to rob every little tournament they can

 

[Mark Griffin]

Cleary is funny

Cleary-
You ARE funny.
I think you'll embrace this concept- but the major flaw is it's logical!!

Hopefully CJ will understand it! Lol

Seriously - it has potential.

BTW- Happy NewYear. And I wanna order one of your cheeseburgers.

Mark griffin

I hope you're gonna have a million added Texas Bumps event cause I'm stone cold robbing that shit.

 

[cleary]

Cleary-
You ARE funny.
I think you'll embrace this concept- but the major flaw is it's logical!!

Hopefully CJ will understand it! Lol

Seriously - it has potential.

BTW- Happy NewYear. And I wanna order one of your cheeseburgers.

Mark griffin

Looking forward to hearing about it. Happy new year and congrats on getting hitched.

 

[rennerb6]

Joe t, all y'all are AT LASTS & PASSIONATELY put your best foot forward. With a bunch of players (that can hustle most any action!) I believe that pool is not far off from a working solution w backers/promotion. Keep at it plz. You're on the door steps! Enthusiasm is the most important factor in successful sales /I.e putting this into action. So close, so many players in leagues! Make it work.

 

[rennerb6]

W a credible list of pros and organization, you could solicit car companies. Look at snow skiing, bxm sponsors and tours. Assimilate their programs to pool.! K. McCready has a large presence with media! Hot dog some pool representatives, w league players... And you have the action, sponsors, give away a car. Advertising pays. You guy's know better than I, just a thot IMHO... B

 

[LAlouie]

Your first mistake is assuming the pros have any business sense whatsoever. Second, as has been demonstrated countless of times in the history of pool, the players are their own worst enemy. Your idea would never fly. That is the problem with ANY solution that relies on the pro player as an answer.

The answer is a businessman of wealth with NO interest in pool other than seeing pool as a money-making venture. Anyone who has ties to the game is himself compromised. The problem of course is pool will never be a viable money-making venture worth the time of a successful businessman. I really though pool's only chance was with the women, and maybe tying in the men, but that has busted. ESPN is proof that the general public has no interest in pool and specifically mens pool.

Pro pool being self sustaining or being profitable with longevity is an interesting problem, I am amazed that no one has figured it out yet but maybe its just not meant to be. It seems pro pool survives basically on donations from the little sponsors who love the game and promoters too. I know the promoters either make very little, break even and possibly lose lots of money doing a pro event. I would love to see online betting support pro pool with events taking place either weekly or monthly that can be bet on but not sure how feasible it is even though its been talked about.

The money is in the leagues/amateurs which some of that money could support a pro tour but once again it would be a donation because you would be throwing lots of money at it with probably very little money coming back to you so I don't fault league owners for not taking the lions share to do so. I know it took years and a good investment to build those leagues to where they are today and its nice to see anyone make a buck legitimately with pool.

Now if pros started a league for amateurs ran by professional players and "pooled" the money to pay themselves all salaries based on rankings from each season or for working whatever city/state they live in it might be a possibility. With decent prize money for each event also there might be something there but somehow someone would get greedy and screw it all up plus there needs to be organization and egos put aside which would be a huge hurdle. I would play in a league ran by pros and promoted by them before any other and I believe most amateurs would too.

Pros are located in every state so they could go out and promote the league and win over the amateur players by showing up on league nights, bsing and giving lessons/exhibitions. They could be responsible for certain areas in each city or state and collect the monies which go to fund the tour which they get paid a salary for and also each month an event to play in to win more money. Essentially pro pool players would be employees of the league, salary plus bonuses with the tournament monies.

I could imagine amateur players playing in the finals of a national league tournament for not just prize money but for a spot on the pro tour that had a salary and you have potential to win more at each event. The pro tour would be funded by this league and pro players could make a living as I would think in the US there are 500,000 in pool leagues with something like 250-300,000 in APA alone. I envision a poster with a bunch of pool players looking sharp on it, "Pro-Am Pool League - Play with the Best" or something like that.

I am starting to ramble as it is late. Thoughts?

 

[Fast Lenny]

Your first mistake is assuming the pros have any business sense whatsoever. Second, as has been demonstrated countless of times in the history of pool, the players are their own worst enemy. Your idea would never fly. That is the problem with ANY solution that relies on the pro player as an answer.

The answer is a businessman of wealth with NO interest in pool other than seeing pool as a money-making venture. Anyone who has ties to the game is himself compromised. The problem of course is pool will never be a viable money-making venture worth the time of a successful businessman. I really though pool's only chance was with the women, and maybe tying in the men, but that has busted. ESPN is proof that the general public has no interest in pool and specifically mens pool.

Majority of people do not have business sense and the majority work for other people. There are some pool players with business sense who could possible lead something like this.

 

[Island Drive]

Pro pool


''Now if pros started a league for amateurs ran by professional players and "pooled" the money to pay themselves all salaries based on rankings from each season or for working whatever city/state they live in it might be a possibility. ''

Ya can't herd Roaming cats/period....thinking that this is even a possibility after supporting and playing in three different pro tours is a pie in the sky.

A commissioner with some Belguims, and player funding attached to annual WPA membership and a BUSINESS plan is a good SomeWhere to begin.

Personally, like all successful sports, develop the game around EVERYTHING but the MONEY. Play for pride/recognition/and all the other tangibles like the Snooker world, and ya might get out of kindergarten and into middle school.

 

[Joe T]

Joe t, all y'all are AT LASTS & PASSIONATELY put your best foot forward. With a bunch of players (that can hustle most any action!) I believe that pool is not far off from a working solution w backers/promotion. Keep at it plz. You're on the door steps! Enthusiasm is the most important factor in successful sales /I.e putting this into action. So close, so many players in leagues! Make it work.

Thank you, from time to time I definitely need that.

We have the best format I've ever seen for forming something permanent and it doesn't require a lot of resources that we do not possess and that is why we should build it.

At this Derby we'll have 16 players qualified.
16 Players that all earned their spot while playing at home at the expense of $20 x 9 Matches. Call it $180 for 18hrs of playing pool locally, that's the worst thing that could happen to a player in this format. And that's important because most pro tours kill players with expenses, not intentionally of course but its a byproduct.

The 16 qualified are getting $750-$1000 for expenses to get to Derby, a place that most were going to anyway or at least wanted to. and they'll all have a chance to win a few more thousand in our 2 day format.

With 64 clubs and 64 qualified players you have the base to build from and a product to at least talk about with potential sponsors.

If anyone has some constructive criticism we're all ears.
The adjusted format is:
64 Clubs nationally with 10 players at each.
Each club host 5 matches per week (10hrs)
Each player play 9 matches at the expense of $20 per match over the course of 10 weeks.
That raises $1800 per club. From that each club adds $400 to national prize fund.
Pays the players;
1st $800 for expense and spot
2nd $400
3rd 4th $100 each.
Prior to that we had been adding money out of pocket for the nationals and paying back the players 120%. That can't continue.
The goal is to form the product (640 united players), keep it self sustaining and gain enough sponsorship to cover expenses and then increase prize money and attention.

We have to start somewhere and this format is within our grasp.

 

[rennerb6]

Joe t, you're positive, for sure! Played Valley in Cheyenne, got city, state but had an advantage, as far as & & & & were concerned. Bar owner kicked in his 'back and xtras. Wish we all had a sponsor so cool. Have a few ideas, will pass across the line. Ppl love the attitude! The run-outs, the draw! It's coming hope so... Joe... B