Spin Doesn't Transfer from CB to OB

[John Brumback]

Here's a simple demo posed as a proposition shot. Under the right conditions, you can add a second blocker ball frozen to the 2 ball so the block is a full two balls wide. People who don't know that you can spin the object ball could lose a lot of money at this proposition.

View attachment 348909

Who in the - - - - can or would argue with this?? I guess alot of people don't practice,they just talk about pool.
This is as perfect example as I can think of,Bob.Thanks!!!. John B.

 

[naji]

If the two balls are in a direct straight line and shot straight but hit with side the OB will not spin... As soon as you leave the straight line in a shot then the spin transfers.
Champion one pocket players can spin the OB like no ones business'



Rob.M

Dr. Dave at work here, thanks Dr. , watch the silicon spray test at about 9.03 time almost no spin! I wonder if hits the silicon one with speed would the OB throw any?

http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVD-16.htm

 

[John Brumback]

Try the shot and let us know how it goes. The shot has worked on every table I've tried it on, and it tends to work more easily on old cloth.

Yep, me too again:thumbup: John B.

 

[jsp]

No, he didn't. The friction force between the two balls can happened to be accomplish 3 things at the same time:

1) compensate the slight aimming angle intended away from the straight on line, and "throw" the ob back into the line.
2) impart/transfer some spin to the ob.
3) stop the cue ball from moving by conterbalance the reminanse moving tendency in the stun direction.

The trick is, after compensate for the deflection, you are still not aimming the cue ball at the full hit.

This is what Jaden originally stated...

I can hit a ball dead straight make the Cb stop dead and impart spin on the ob...

The way I interpret "hit a ball dead straight" is that the CB travels directly on the "straight on line". Otherwise it wouldn't be "dead straight".

If my interpretation of what Jaden said is correct, then what he said is a physical impossibility. Any imparted spin on the OB must mean a deviation somewhere on the straight on line, whether it be the CB deviating from it before contact (in which case the CB isn't hit "dead straight") or the CB deviating from it after contact (in which case the CB doesn't "stop dead").

 

[KRJ]

Bottom line IMHO is Spin, English don't do zip until the CB make contact with a RAIL, than you see the effects of Spin, or English. Masse is a different story IMHO.

Man, sooner or later you have to get something right.. I mean, the law of large numbers practically demands it. I mean, even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile

 

[Bob Jewett]

Bob, I agree with you. It works on almost all american style tables. But on table's with british snooker style felt, especially the old ones, the side spin stays on the balls much shorter. I wasn't referring to the snooker tables in the states or canada, the british ones.

The snooker tables I play on in the US have Strachan cloth or similar and are Rileys or BCE. My statement applies to British-style tables and British-style cloth.

 

[book collector]

The spin does transfer is the teacher.

 

[BRussell]

I'd still like to see someone on video make both of these shots at the same speed. The one on the outside of the 2 was easy, even hitting it hard, but I can't make the one on the inside of the two. The angle is too sharp.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I'd still like to see someone on video make both of these shots at the same speed. The one on the outside of the 2 was easy, even hitting it hard, but I can't make the one on the inside of the two. The angle is too sharp.

Try adjusting the position of the two a little to the left or right. That's permitted. It should be about where the slow-roller bank hits. That prevents the slow-roller bank.

 

[pt109]

Who in the - - - - can or would argue with this?? I guess alot of people don't practice,they just talk about pool.
This is as perfect example as I can think of,Bob.Thanks!!!. John B.

People can make self-fulfilling prophesies, John.
I had this argument with one of the finest strokes in the snooker world..
...he is adamant that you cannot transmit side to the object ball...
...and he can't!
So I set up a bank on a snooker table where you HAVE to put right english
to bank it....I told him that I would use right and he could use left and we'll
see who banks it first.....he would not shoot.

 

[dr_dave]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B4f_IDFips&list=UUtxYExxenXXmLJXlKxgjB2w

Discuss...

This video and discussion has come up before in the past. The very first shot in the video clearly demonstrates that both throw and spin transfer are occurring. The right side side throws the OB to the left and imparts left (clockwise) sidespin to the OB. That's why the stripe of the OB does not remain vertical, as it would with no spin transfer. The OB stripe wobbles because sidespin is imparted to the ball.

As others have pointed out, you cannot get throw without spin transfer. They come hand in hand because they are caused by the same friction force between the balls. Diagram 1 in the following article illustrates what is going on: "Throw - Part VIII: spin transfer" (BD, March, 2007). And the following super-slow-motion video clearly shows the effect: HSV A.66 - Straight-on shot with english and slow speed.

The only time there is no throw or spin transfer is with "gearing" outside english (or with a straight stop shot with no sidespin). The following video explains and demonstrates this effect: HSV B.33 - Outside english gearing, and cut and spin-induced throw. And more information can be found on the outside english resource page.

For people who want more convincing concerning spin transfer (from either a cut angle or spin), the following resource page contains numerous videos, instructional articles, illustrations, and examples showing very clear evidence for spin transfer:

spin transfer resource page

There are certain types of shots that are not possible without spin transfer. Here are some examples:

NV B.20 - Spin transfer bank shots
NV B.22 - Two-times and three-times across bank shots

And more can be found on the spin transfer resource page.

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

Where would we be without Dr Dave and the other science guys? Thank the science gods for them! Seriously, no matter how good the player is, what he thinks may be happening is not always what really is happening. I'm so thankful Dr Dave took the time and effort to put his site and material together. What a tremendous resource.

Thank you for the supportive post. I appreciate it.

I also like your well-written bolded statement. This is often a cause for misunderstandings and nonproductive thinking.

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

Here's a simple demo posed as a proposition shot. Under the right conditions, you can add a second blocker ball frozen to the 2 ball so the block is a full two balls wide. People who don't know that you can spin the object ball could lose a lot of money at this proposition.

View attachment 348909

That's an excellent proposition shot, Bob. FYI, I've added it to the spin-transfer resource page.

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

The shot works fine with nearly any set of balls and the balls have not been doctored. Try it. If the balls have been cleaned/polished with the wrong kind of products, such as rubbing compound and car polish, you might even be able to put up three blocker balls.

The way balls are cleaned and treated can have a major impact on how much they throw and transfer spin. The following video demonstrates this quite clearly:

NV D.16 - Pool ball cut-induced throw and cling/skid/kick experiment

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

Obviously, there are some variables involved.

I have a rough list of what I think those variables might be, but I'd love to hear your ideas about them.

The variables that affect spin transfer are the same variables that affect throw, and they are all listed (with supporting resources) in items 16 through 37 in the list beneath the videos here:

squirt, swerve, throw effects resource page

Enjoy,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

watch the silicon spray test at about 9.03 time almost no spin! I wonder if hits the silicon one with speed would the OB throw any?

http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVD-16.htm

More speed would definitely create less throw (and spin transfer) in this situation, but it still woudn't be zero. That would required perfectly frictionless surfaces, which isn't really possible in the "real world."

That Silicon Spray is amazing stuff on pool balls (although it gets on everything and makes a mess). Try it some time with extreme draw and masse shots. It makes some of those Corey Deuel and Florian Kohler shots almost seem easy.

Catch you later,
Dave

 

[BRussell]

Try adjusting the position of the two a little to the left or right. That's permitted. It should be about where the slow-roller bank hits. That prevents the slow-roller bank.

Yeah that worked, I could make them both in just a couple of attempts. I'm still curious if anyone can make the tight-angle bank the way it's diagrammed. Best I could do is rattle it.

I did it with two conditions to get at spin transfer directly:

1. They are both shot at the same speed. Otherwise they could both be makable with roll vs. slide and rail compression rather than spin transfer. Medium speed worked fine for me.
2. Shoot stop shots on the cue ball. No cut-induced spin, only spin transfer.

 

[jay helfert]

I think it's funny that the guy shooting that video sees the same thing I see and clearly states that spin does not transfer. Hilarious!

It's very obvious that the 10 ball's strip wobbles, quite visibly, on it's way to the pocket. The only reason for this, seeing how it was aligned fairly straight to start with, is that some side spin was transferred to the object ball.

From a simple logic standpoint, I don't see how some spin cannot transfer.
1.The object ball is a sphere.
2. The cue ball imparts energy to that ball in at least 2 planes. The first is directly away, and the second is directly to the side. This is where the throw would come from.
3. Any energy imparted on a sphere that is not in absolute direct line with the very core of that sphere (it's center of gravity), must induce some rotation.
4. Only if 100% of the energy is exactly in line with the core and the ball goes straight away can there be no energy exerted to the side.
5. If there is any energy that would cause any throw, then that same energy will also cause some rotation of the object ball.

It's pretty much 2+2. There really is only 1 right answer. At least from my non educated point of view.


Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com

I saw the same thing. Try shooting a one rail shot like that and see what happens when you use right English on the cue ball as opposed to center ball. The object ball will react differently coming off the rail!

 

[Agent 99]

I saw the same thing. Try shooting a one rail shot like that and see what happens when you use right English on the cue ball as opposed to center ball. The object ball will react differently coming off the rail!

It has to do with Pints, mate .... Enough Pints equal no spin transfer as can be witnessed only with the help of several Pints.

Tip ... It appears to help if the Pints are piss warm. :wink:

 

[smoooothstroke]

Its in the stroke.If the CB is spinning with side and sliding on the felt when it contacts the OB at a low speed it will transfer side-spin.Of course there are many variables:the slickness of the cloth,the finish or lack of on the balls.

I sometimes make bank shots in 1P that would be impossible to make without side-spin transfer.

You need a straight or nearly straight on hit to demonstrate the english transfer so as not to confuse it with cut induced side-spin (not talking about throw either) .

It is in the stroke.