Sponsorship

pescadoman

pescadoman

Randy
Silver Member
I built a cue here for a local kid and he has been playing with it. I only asked that he tell people who made it. Nothing was formalized. Also note I consider this young man to be a friend.

Recently, he was offered a better deal from someone else. This offer came from someone else I knew and was done without my knowledge. I was made aware when someone asked me how I felt about it.

After some initial anger, and talking it out with some friends, I told him the cue was his to keep and that I would support him regardless of his choice. Furthermore, I suggested that if a better deal come about, that he take it. I implied there would be no hard feelings and that I would have liked a phone call next time before finding out elsewhere.

My question is.... is this sort of thing normal?
 
All the info I hear about sponsoring someone always seems to endup with the guy jumping to someone else, and/or the cues get traded/sold. To me it's not worth sponsoring anyone....
DAve
 
Sounds like if a cue maker was going to sponsor someone, regardless if it's a friend or not, to get a written contract drawn up with whatever stipulations both sides agree to and for however long. That way both parties get their use out of the deal.

Nathan Brugmann
 
My question is.... is this sort of thing normal?
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No.
Normally, they lose the cue in the airport or at the parking lot.
Or it was stolen at the pool hall.
Next time, give him Wheatbucks.
 
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Like Dave, the only things that I have read about re sponsorship have not been good.

Sure, give the guy a cue but if he decides that he can get a better deal elsewhere, the
honorable thing to do is return the cue.

I don't give cues away but for every team that has a steak night or tourney for extra travel money, I always hand out several gift certificates for tip and shaft cleans etc for raffles.

Over the course of the last year, I have seen these gift certificates abused and not put out there for their intended purpose.

So no more from me.
 
thank you for the replies. It was actually a moral win for me when I was only livid for about an hour.....

I'm really starting to improve:grin:
 
sponsorship

If you're very selective, and very lucky, it can do a world of good from what I've seen.
It also sucks when the deal goes sour eventually. Friends being lost etc.
good luck, sounds like you're a good guy.
 
I have sponsored a few pro players in the past. The biggest name was Dennis Orcollo. He used my cue for the Derby City Classic and the Dubai World 8 Ball. Then he got picked up by Tiger Products. Moral of the story is plan on loosing the cue at some point. Custom Cuemakers cannot compete with the big name Production companies offerings. I like Dennis a whole lot, and will always be his friend. Its business for the players, they need the financial backing to help survive easier.
 
pescadoman said:
I built a cue here for a local kid and he has been playing with it. I only asked that he tell people who made it. Nothing was formalized. Also note I consider this young man to be a friend.

Recently, he was offered a better deal from someone else. This offer came from someone else I knew and was done without my knowledge. I was made aware when someone asked me how I felt about it.

After some initial anger, and talking it out with some friends, I told him the cue was his to keep and that I would support him regardless of his choice. Furthermore, I suggested that if a better deal come about, that he take it. I implied there would be no hard feelings and that I would have liked a phone call next time before finding out elsewhere.

My question is.... is this sort of thing normal?
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What were the long term benefits for the kid beyond a free cue? It would be better if you want him to play with your cue to have a deal where orders that originate from him he makes a small commission on. I remember a deal that Carlos Hallon had with Schuler. Carlos would take the order and a deposit then call it in to Schuler. From then on it was all between the buyer and Schuler as the cue got finished and delivered. Carlos pocked the deposit and that was his commission. From there on he was no longer involved and he got his commission on the spot, a nice incentive for him to write the order. Carlos sold a s#it load of cues for Schuler this way often making more from the cues then he did in the tournaments. It was a nice arrangement from what I saw.

It does require the cue maker to have something in the way of a brochure for the player/players to show. It could be just some pictures of completed cues the buyer can use as a guide line. Maybe show a few basic cue such as a plain Birdseye and a plain four point, a six point and so on that they can pick from that will have a short waiting. If they want something more involved that can be done as well. Either way the player/ representative has brought you the customer. I remember Buddy Hall used to always have cues for sale, usually Bludworth cues you could buy on the spot. This is not recommended though since you are fronting the cues and I don't have to go into what can happen with that. The Carlos Hallon deal was one of the best ideas I have seen that benefitted both the player and cue maker without the usual problems.
 
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pescadoman said:
I built a cue here for a local kid and he has been playing with it. I only asked that he tell people who made it. Nothing was formalized. Also note I consider this young man to be a friend.

Recently, he was offered a better deal from someone else. This offer came from someone else I knew and was done without my knowledge. I was made aware when someone asked me how I felt about it.

After some initial anger, and talking it out with some friends, I told him the cue was his to keep and that I would support him regardless of his choice. Furthermore, I suggested that if a better deal come about, that he take it. I implied there would be no hard feelings and that I would have liked a phone call next time before finding out elsewhere.

My question is.... is this sort of thing normal?
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Uh, hmmmm, uh, and this surprises you?

I was just told where a guy was sponsoreed and the cue didn't last one day before it was sold!
 
DoubleD said:
Macguy brings up some good points.

What was the expected length of this exclusive sponsorship? Did one cue buy him for life, five years? Two years? How long was it that he 'worked' for you?

Why wasn't there a contract?

This really seems like a case of the specifics being so vague that one party was always going to feel cheated.

Better luck next time,

dld
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LIke I said in my original post, it was an act of good will and nothing was formalized.

Of further interest is the fact another guy who lives in Vegas contacted me, wanting a free cue. Apparently, it was his intent to sell it as soon as it was received.

I suppose that is all the info I needed right there...
 
I posted about this not long ago. I saw a cue I made, which the guy had for maybe a week, sell it for the money. There may be some players who will actually keep the cue and hold to the agreement, but for me, if you want to be sponsored, go see the man in the moon !!!
 
Russell Cues said:
I posted about this not long ago. I saw a cue I made, which the guy had for maybe a week, sell it for the money. There may be some players who will actually keep the cue and hold to the agreement, but for me, if you want to be sponsored, go see the man in the moon !!!
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Without being too gross: "Moon Cues" conjures up an image of such a cue strategically placed in the "moon" area of said "pro".
:rotflmao1:
Gary
 
They will suck you dry, if you let them

If you allow pool players, they will suck you dry! Usually this is unintentional. Both parties have the best intentions, usually. Sad truth is there is no money in pool playing. Pool player is cue-less (first sign of desperation). Cue maker meets pool player and likes him (wants to help him). Cue maker's best use of money is to invest in pool player with his skills and inventory by building him cue (and maybe get some business in turn by 'word of mouth'). Pool player intends to win every time and repay his friend (of course great pool players could play with a broom handle and beat most 'joes'). Instead, winnings are never enough to keep up with rising expenses. Desperate pool player needs cash and sells cue. Again, he is cue-less. All of this was with the best intentions by both parties (but usually ends the same way every time)

Now, I know that this isn't every case. There are many, many players that believe that they are entitled to these things.

If you are dealing with a kid, then you are unintentionally teaching him this habit at a very young of an age. Again, your intentions were pure. And at the end of the day, you can look back and say that you have tried to better the world of pool. And learned a valuable lesson.
 
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Very interesting thread to read from the cuemakers side.

I recently had an offer from a cuemaker to make my son a cue after I posted something about him going to the Jr Nationals in Vegas. Although he did it without a timeline and other stipulations, not to have his name out there associated with a top jr player, I wanted him to have something ready by the time my son got to the Jr Nationals where his name could be exposed even a bit in that tournament, and maybe even on a live stream if my son got to play on the streaming table provided by TAR. I was actually worried a bit that he would see this as me rushing him to make him the cue rather than me trying to give something in return for his kindness. If he makes him a cue AFTER the Jr Nationals, it's just a cue my son has, if we get it BEFORE we can show people the cue and say who made it, how it hits, etc...

While this may not be a true "sponsorship", I view the cue as belonging to the cuemaker if my son ever decides not to use the cue or happens to not like it for some reason. It will be send back to him so he can resell it or do whatever with it.

I don't see a free cue given to be used by a player as a true gift. Unless it was a gift that is hehe.

My son is now the MA State Jr 9Ball Champion, which is a real title and is probably worth something, if I even went to a big name maker, or whoever, and asked them if they'd like to make a nice cue for my son to use in return for exposure, that cue in my eyes is the property of the cuemaker and should be returned if it ever would not be used, not resold.

The cuemaker could of course say "no, keep it", then it's different.
 
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DoubleD said:
Here is the problem with your thought:

What if your son becomes famous while using that cue? If that happened and it had the effect of significantly increasing the value of the cue, well beyond the value of the other cues by that maker, then your son is being screwed.

If this is genuinely 'sponsorship', having your son play with that cue and mention the name of the maker is worth something to the maker. How much is up to him.

Sponsorships are always partially gambles by the company. A player can do great things and increase sales or value. A player can also cheat on his wife (ahem *tiger woods* ahem) and become something the company doesn't want to be associated with.

The only fair way to set up a sponsorship deal is for both parties to be happy with the deal. For instance, if I were going to sponsor your son as a cuemaker, I would probably give him the cue on a certain set of criteria such as:

-Has to use that cue exclusively for a certain amount of time.
-He has to live up to a signed morals contract (i.e. no drug use, illegal activity, outbursts on media, etc.).
-If he wins a large tourney with the cue, time will be taken off of his contract.
-At the end of the contract, the cue is his (if contract is terminated early, it will be pro-rated for time served). He can then sell the cue or keep it.
-If both parties are satisfied, a new contract can be drawn up.

Having a set of explicit criteria benefits both parties.

dld
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I guess I'm just too nice to be a contract lawyer hehe. I don't think that a $300 cue is worth that much in the overall career or a player. Now if this sponsorship (which this is not really, no-one said anything about it) included tournament and travel money, or was for a multi-thousand dollar cue (say if Shick made him a level 4+ cue) then I'm sure there would be some agreement. But absent all that, if a cuemaker told me "I'd like to make you a cue to use", if I ever stopped using it, or my son did, I would give the cuemaker first pick as to what to do with that cue. But, that is my thoughts on it, others could think that the cuemaker gave them the cue as a gift, and should not get it back. Sounds like thoughts about an engagement ring LOL, some would say that was a gift, others a "contract" to be married that if broken returns to the giver.
 
hang-the-9 said:
I guess I'm just too nice to be a contract lawyer hehe. I don't think that a $300 cue is worth that much in the overall career or a player. Now if this sponsorship (which this is not really, no-one said anything about it) included tournament and travel money, or was for a multi-thousand dollar cue (say if Shick made him a level 4+ cue) then I'm sure there would be some agreement. But absent all that, if a cuemaker told me "I'd like to make you a cue to use", if I ever stopped using it, or my son did, I would give the cuemaker first pick as to what to do with that cue. But, that is my thoughts on it, others could think that the cuemaker gave them the cue as a gift, and should not get it back. Sounds like thoughts about an engagement ring LOL, some would say that was a gift, others a "contract" to be married that if broken returns to the giver.
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Your position is the way it should be. If only all those out there in your situation felt the same way.

Of course, an agreement makes things a little more clear, and we've agreements very similar to the one mentioned above. However, we have still heard the "it was stolen out of my car/hotel/apartment/friends car/friends hotel/" etc.

I once gave a cue that we used as a demo cue in our booth to a high level player because he had a big money game that night and liked it better than the one he had. The next day, he asked if he could keep it until his primary playing cue was back from being repaired. I told him "sure, keep it until yours is fixed. But, the cue belongs to OB Cues. It is not yours to keep or sell or anything other than use until your cue comes back". He agreed and we shook hands. 2 years later, I see the cue getting a tip replaced at the APA tournament. Actually, Joe Blackburn showed the cue to me as he knew of the story and recognized the cue. Apparently, the player sold the cue to this young player for a hundred bucks. Of course, I let the young player keep the cue. It was not his wrong doing. However, I did confront the player when I saw him next. At first, he denied it. He said it broke and wasn't fixable etc. When he knew he was busted, he came clean and apologized. After the apology, he asked if we were ok. I said of course not, you stole my cue. He was absolutely blown away by the fact that I would not say that we were all ok again just because he apologized. He said "what can I do to make us ok again?". I said "give me my cue back". He said "I don't have the cue!". I just looked at him a shrugged.

From that point on, if I give someone a cue, I basically consider it gone. I still do the explanations etc. but I just don't set my expectations too high.
 
I have learned the hard way the some players think there owed something from us cue builders. I sponsored a young player.. The agreement was he had to play with it for a year. If he went somewhere else before then, he gave the cue back. Anytime after a year. The cue was his.!! Within 2 months he was playing with another builders cue. Then he had 4-5 other cue makers giving him cues to!! It is a little aggravation to say the least. No I didnt and wont ask for the cue back! He does know exactly how I feel about it though!
I now sponsor Shane McMinn! And he is a good as it gets!! He is a little hard on butt caps though!!! :) Other than Shane if a pool player comes in looking for a cue.... guess what..... he/she is buying it. Been burnt by more than one pool player is enough!!

Here is one more that I wont mention a name. He is very well known and a Champion!!!
One of the greats come to me at a tourny. Asked me to sponsor him. He wanted a cue and break cue! After a little talking with him I said no problem. He wanted 3 cues a years to sell for him self. I said no problem.. Then he went on to tell me how a big name at the time used to sponsor him years ago.. And went on to tell me how he would sell his cue's that was give to him to do so when he went busted.. For 25% of what retail was for the cue!! Sometimes less than that! There's the problem! NO DEA!! So the moral to the story is. You have to be careful when you sponsor someone. You have to really do your home work and pick someone worthy of doing so!
 
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